Do you want "Daily Quests" if so, to what extent?

Many MMO:s have daily quests to give you a steady source of income and reputations, as well as to keep you logging in everyday. Do you want daily quests? Why/why not? If you want them, how important/impactful should they be?

Personaly I would like some form of daily quests but I want them to be interesting and relevant. The best ones for me are quests that make you go out and explore the world. This helps making the world and "older" less relevant areas feel more alive.

For me, if daily quests are present in the game, they should be for max level and they should not take more than 30 mins to complete. They should be optional and focus mostly on income. I also like profession quests.

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Dygz

Damokles wrote: »

Okay, i just have to ask:
I for one want dailies like "Bring 10 boar meat to the tavern." Or "Collect 20 pieces of wood in the nearby forrest and bring them to the quartermaster."
The only reward from them would be gold, exp and node exp contribution.

What is so bad about this? People on the "no dailies" side of the argument are all saying how bad dailies are and that they supposedly ruin the game experience / cause INFLATION OF THE INGAME ECONOMY of all things (pretty laughable tbh, and yes one of you did say that).

If you dont want to do dailies, then fine dont do dailies. No one forces you to. But there are some people like me that like to do dailies on off days, where you dont have enough motivation to do real quests, and just want to grind a bit of repeatable easy content.
To exclude a thing, because other people dont like it even though there is a large number of people who like it (most casuals) is dumb in my opinion...

I think collecting 20 pieces of wood in the nearby forest and bringing them to the quartermaster is likely to take more than 10-20 minutes. (I'm using Landmark as a reference, though.)
Typically, the Dailies in Wiz101, NMS and Apoc only ask players to kill one mob or one player; not even 5 and certainly not 10. "Collect 5 pieces of wood" might be the equivalent of "Open 3 chests". If so, great.
But, the tasks need to be something where a casual time player thinks, "Yeah, that's quick and easy enough, sure." They need to be something convenient, rather than compulsory.

I think in Ashes, Daily Rewards are unlikely to include gold or actual gear. I think they are more likely to include a meager amount of embers or some form of cosmetics coin. In Apoc, if you complete about 3.5 days worth of Dailies (14K XP,) you can earn 50 embers or a cosmetic/skin or a housing/freehold skin or an emote as material gains that provide no advantage. Gold could potentially provide some advantage. Gold is not part of the Apoc rewards structure, so I don't expect gold to be part of the MMORPG Daily rewards structure.
The devs will figure out the details of how they want to parcel out such rewards on the reward schedule.
In NMS, it's basically you get enough cosmetic coins that if you complete 3 plus Dailies, you probably have enough to purchase something from the cosmetics store.
Again, we can get an idea of the IS dev philosophy on Dailies from Apoc - the testing ground for the MMORPG.

Casual tasks completed in casual time for casual rewards.
(There would also be xp going to the Node due to completing the content, sure.)

Allowing players to stack the Dailies all on one day defeats the dev purpose of trying to entice players to login for at least 10-20 minutes each day. Apoc Dailies don't allow this (the max per day is two), so I doubt Ashes Dailies would allow that.
In Wiz101, NMS and Apoc, it's not really possible to "fall behind" - and, if you do feel like you can't "catch-up" or you're going to "fall behind", you have significant issues with envy and entitlement.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Gold is not part of the Apoc rewards structure, so I don't expect gold to be part of the MMORPG Daily rewards structure.

You know as well as anyone that Apoc was thrown together as a testing ground for large scale features like action combat and sieges. It is not a testing ground for the reward structure of daily quests.

Since gold is not a thing in Apoc, gold as a reward can not be a thing in Apoc. This has absolutely no bearing on what rewards possible daily quests in Ashes could include, as these daily quests were literally thrown together - as you well know.

This is one of your least well thought out arguments, and in fact I have copied it so that I can repost it for you when the game does go live.

In Wiz101, NMS and Apoc, it's not really possible to "fall behind" - and, if you do feel like you can't "catch-up" or you're going to "fall behind", you have significant issues with envy and entitlement.

None of those games have the level of character progression that Ashes will have, nor the competitive nature that Ashes will have, nor the combative nature that Ashes will have.

If you fall behind in Wizard 101, you won't have other players killing you while you are out doing your dailies.

In Ashes, you may.

This one simple fact is why you can't compare those games and their content (including daily quests) to Ashes. I mean, there are also the facts that of the three games listed, one is a childs MMO, one is a BO and not an MMO at all, and one is it's own catagory of game but still certainly not a MMO.

Those things are all important factors as to why we shouldn't look to those games for ideas on how to do any content in Ashes, but all of that comes secondary to the fact that in Ashes there may well be people trying to kill you, and if you fall a little behind, the chances of that goes up.

If Intrepid want to add content to Ashes that players can be reasonably confident in being able to do in 10 minutes, that content needs to exist solely within the confines of a node where the player can not be attacked - and the player needs to have logged out either in said node, or very close.

All up, with the way Ashes is designed (little fast travel, open PvP), I doubt the notion of a 10 minute daily quest would even be possible - which is probably why they are looking towards other avenues.

Malisent

noaani wrote: »

The problem with daily tasks over clickbait videos is that if you take a day off YouTube, you can come back the next day and watch all those clickbait videos you missed, and all is well. With daily tasks, if you miss a day, that task is gone.

This is a bad thing, as it punishes players for wanting to do something like taking their significant other out for dinner and a show - and any person that has a significant other would understand how a game that punishes this type of thing would likely be short lived in that particular household.

This is absolutely what killed WoW for me.. I was a progressive raider and couldn't afford to miss dailies to maintain my raid slot. Even though my SO played as well, the number of dailies ramped up with each expansion to the point we couldn't even have fun anymore.. all our free time was keeping up. I'm actually playing WoW Classic now.. no dailies.. I can play when I choose.

Noaani

malisent wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

The problem with daily tasks over clickbait videos is that if you take a day off YouTube, you can come back the next day and watch all those clickbait videos you missed, and all is well. With daily tasks, if you miss a day, that task is gone.

This is a bad thing, as it punishes players for wanting to do something like taking their significant other out for dinner and a show - and any person that has a significant other would understand how a game that punishes this type of thing would likely be short lived in that particular household.

This is absolutely what killed WoW for me.. I was a progressive raider and couldn't afford to miss dailies to maintain my raid slot. Even though my SO played as well, the number of dailies ramped up with each expansion to the point we couldn't even have fun anymore.. all our free time was keeping up. I'm actually playing WoW Classic now.. no dailies.. I can play when I choose.

Indeed.

I know of entire guilds that have broken up because the games they were playing had slowly increased the amount of effort players needed to put in just to keep up, to the point where that was all many players were able to do.

WoW has been bad at this for a few years now, but Archeage has been bad at it since it first launched.

The thing with daily quests is that over time, there is always an increasing number of them. the existing daily quests are usually updated to take in to account any level cap increase, but as new features are added to the game - be it a new faction, a new religion, a new social organization or a new system - games that have daily quests as a content type will always add more to go with that new shiny thing.

Because developers want these quests to be run every day, the rewards for them are increased to the point where players have to run them every day just in order to keep up.

This leads to people leaving the game - and developers have come to realize over the last 10 years that people paying their subscription is more important than people logging in every day. This is why daily quests are not so much of a thing in more recent non-Korean MMO's.

The best solution to the issue of daily creep is to come up with a different content type to the traditional daily quest. That is what Intrepid seem to be doing with Ashes, and we just need to wait for some more details.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

This one simple fact is why you can't compare those games and their content (including daily quests) to Ashes. I mean, there are also the facts that of the three games listed, one is a childs MMO, one is a BO and not an MMO at all, and one is it's own catagory of game but still certainly not a MMO.

Wiz101 is a family game; not a child's MMORPG. So, per usual, you are wrong from jump.
But, everything you've written above is irrelevant to this topic in any case.

noaani wrote: »

If Intrepid want to add content to Ashes that players can be reasonably confident in being able to do in 10 minutes, that content needs to exist solely within the confines of a node where the player can not be attacked - and the player needs to have logged out either in said node, or very close.

Perhaps. Although, quick and easy task keeps the likelihood of being PKed low.
Especially low chance of being PKed twice in 10-20 minutes.

noaani wrote: »

I doubt the notion of a 10 minute daily quest would even be possible.

We shall see.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

If Intrepid want to add content to Ashes that players can be reasonably confident in being able to do in 10 minutes, that content needs to exist solely within the confines of a node where the player can not be attacked - and the player needs to have logged out either in said node, or very close.

Perhaps. Although, quick and easy task keeps the likelihood of being PKed low.
Especially low chance of being PKed twice in 10-20 minutes.

Thing with daily quests is that people want to do then as fast as they can.

This creates a whole lot of predicable behavior.

Even if the quests are varied, there is always going to be a concerntration of players at specific locations. This concerntration is like a magnet to the type of player that likes to troll others, as they know they are attacking people at a time when they just have a simple task they want to achieve.

So yeah, the chances of being attacked twice in 10 minutes is generally low, but those chances go up when you start along a path of predictability.

Dygz

Yep. We shall see what the devs actually do.

Dygz

Hmmn. Also, now that I think more about it...

1: People are out to kill me in the BR while I try to Open 3 Chests in the BR or Heal 50 Health. For Repair 50 Armor I need someone to attack me and then I have to survive long enough to do the repair. So, again, the risk of being attacked while trying to complete tasks of similar challenge in the MMORPG doesn't seem problematic.

2: If it's typical that I get killed twice while trying to complete a Daily as a non-combatant, I'd consider that a failure of the Corruption mechanic rather than the Daily design.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Hmmn. Also, now that I think more about it...

1: People are out to kill me in the BR while I try to Open 3 Chests in the BR or Heal 50 Health. For Repair 50 Armor I need someone to attack me and then I have to survive long enough to do the repair. So, again, the risk of being attacked while trying to complete tasks of similar challenge in the MMORPG doesn't seem problematic.

2: If it's typical that I get killed twice while trying to complete a Daily as a non-combatant, I'd consider that a failure of the Corruption mechanic rather than the Daily design.

1, a BR is very different in terms of how players approach it to how they approach an MMO. In a BR, people all have the same window of time in which to do the same thing. In an MMO, people set their own time restrictions, and their own goals. This means there are actually people in an MMO that will set tine aside to grief others, while in a BR, this is very unlikely.

2, in order for the bounty system to work, the corruption system can't be so punishing as to completely deter people from killing others. There has to be enough people with corruption to make people think it is worth investing some time in to the bounty hunter system.

So if the corruption system were enough of a penalty to the point where you can expect to not be killed twice in 10 minutes while acting in a predictable manner in a predictable location, I'd consider that a failure of the corruption system in terms of it's requirement to feed the bounty system.

Again, while not being predictable, I'd expect to not be killed very often at all, but while acting in a predictable manner in a predictable location, you becone prime targets for people wanting corruption or wanting to grief.

Damokles

Lets face it people: all players in the BR are pretty much murder hobos... steal whatever you can, kill everything and everyone you see, has no house....

Dygz

1: In Apoc, everyone has the same window of time to survive and kill/others. With regard to completing Dailies or Weeklies, each player sets their own pace... daily and weekly. So, players who have hardcore time to kill will either have advanced through the Dailies and Weeklies at a much quicker pace than players with only casual time and thus be more focused on killing players - or they won't care much at all about completing quests and will be hyper focused on killing other players. So, trying to complete a Daily in the MMORPG won't be that much different from the BR other than Corruption acting as a deterrent against slaughtering non-combatants.
If Corruption is working correctly, there should not be a considerable amount of players camping non-combatants who are trying to complete their Dailies.
Also, this is why it's better for the Dailies to be something quick, like killing one mob, taking a screenshot of one or two things, or collecting five pieces of wood. Collecting five pieces of wood while also dealing with attacks from other players is doable within casual time. Collecting 20 pieces of wood while also dealing with attacks from other players is probably much less doable in casual time.
In Apoc, in order to complete the "Repair 50 Armor" Daily, we have to be able to get attacked and still find succor long enough to make the repairs, so completing a Daily while under the threat of attack should typically be possible even for casual challenge carebears like me.
The devs will find the balance they want there, though. There are plenty of players who used to be hardcore challenge/hardcore time but, due to work and parenting duties, now only have casual time. They might greatly enjoy the challenge of fending off other players while they attempt to complete a Daily in casual time. There is that to consider as well... as the devs work on the balance of risk v time.

2: The absurd lengths you go to in order to twist concepts presented into something for you to dismiss.
What I said is, "If it's typical that I get killed twice while trying to complete a Daily as a non-combatant, I'd consider that a failure of the Corruption mechanic rather than the Daily design."
You respond by saying, "In order for the bounty system to work, the corruption system can't be so punishing as to completely deter people from killing others." This is one of your typical strawman fallacies.
I didn't say anything like, "Well, the Corruption system should completely deter players from killing non-combatants, so casuals doing their Dailies will be completely safe."

If Corruption is working correctly, non-casuals should mot be camping non-combatant casuals and stacking their Corruption. And the respawn is supposed to be designed to prevent corpse camping. Both of those combined with quick tasks for the Daily, rather than lengthy tasks for the Daily should make it unlikely that it will be typical for me to be killed by other players more than once as I try to complete the Daily.
If it is typical for casuals to be killed more than twice as a non-combatant while trying to complete the Daily, the Corruption system will not be the deterrent that Steven has claimed it will be.
Killing a non-combatant more than twice inherently means that the Corruption system is not completely deterring players from killing non-combatants...so your response, per usual, is absurd from jump.

Also, Bounty Hunters and White Knights would also likely be camping such an area to deal with players attempting to prey on non-combatants trying to complete their Dailies. If we're going to factor in how Corruption affects bounties.

Makinoji

interesting

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

If Corruption is working correctly, non-casuals should mot be camping non-combatant casuals and stacking their Corruption.

There are two main situations at play here.

The first, as I outlined above in as much detail as I think is needed is the fact that Intrepid won't want to make corruption so punishing that players will always avoid it.

The second thing is something that is a little harder to explain. It isn't a game system that is going to cause an issue, nor is it players acting in what most would consider a rational manner.

In any game with open PvP, there WILL be players that are more interested in just annoying others than progressing themselves. They won't care too much about any penalties they themselves may be handed due to their corruption - largely due to the fact that many of these players use alts for this kind of thing, and have mains that bankroll everything. They get a kick out of upsetting others, and are happy to use in game coin to pay for achieving this.

Intrepid can't do anything to prevent or dissuade this particular type of player other than completely remove open PvP from the game - which I'm sure you agree won't happen.

Now, if this type of player knows there will be a concentration of players in a specific location - especially players that have fallen a little behind - then that is just a magnet for this specific kind of player.

Now sure, there is the possibility that a bounty hunter may be around, and some bounty hunters may make a point of trying to be around to "protect" people doing dailies (or more to the point, getting some corrupt player kills).

However, in my experience of games with open PvP (which is reasonably extensive), the people wanting to piss others off have more determination - and usually greater resources - than the people wanting to protect others or fight other players within what ever restrictions the game puts in place.

Again in my experience, one such player has the effect of dissuading several dozen players from participating in specific activities at specific times if they have reason to expect that player to be around.

It is far from absurd to point out something that will be an absolute fact of life in Ashes as it is a fact of life in every MMO with open PvP. It may be inconvenient for you in this specific conversation, but I've actually been considering bringing it up since the second page of this thread - as it is a far more important factor in how successful short dailies in Ashes could be than anything else discussed (I didn't bring it up until now because I was just too busy pointing the laser at various things and watching you run head first in to them).

Dygz wrote: »

Also, this is why it's better for the Dailies to be something quick, like killing one mob, taking a screenshot of one or two things, or collecting five pieces of wood. Collecting five pieces of wood while also dealing with attacks from other players is doable within casual time. Collecting 20 pieces of wood while also dealing with attacks from other players is probably much less doable in casual time.

I thought you wanted daily quests to be meaningful.

The only meaningful thing about killing a single mob, or getting 5 bits of wood, is the additional rewards from the daily quests.

I also thought you said you weren't just after shit for free.

I don't understand how you can say you want meaningful daily quests, you don't just want shit for free, yet you want quests that involve killing a single mob. These three things create another logical fallacy - they can't all exist at the same time.

Dygz

There are more options in-between camping and complete avoidance.
Also, again, in areas where players would be camping non-combatants, there would be Bounty Hunters camping Corrupted.

Killing a single mob is not nothing.
These dailies aren't "Kill one of any mob." They are like, "Kill 1 Sladeborne."
Daily quests are meaningful because the results stack for the Node and/or caravan or temple or library or thieve's guild, etc.
I covered that on Page 1. Of course, you have poor reading comprehension, retention and poor logic, so... no surprise you remain confused and can't understand despite having things spelled out for you repeatedly.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

There are more options in-between camping and complete avoidance.
Also, again, in areas where players would be camping non-combatants, there would be Bounty Hunters camping Corrupted.

As I said, those willing to grief others outnumber those willing to white knight.

At the very best, in a game like Ashes, the notion of having a short daily quest that is designed to get people to log in just to do it - even if not quite every day - now relies on there being a white knight to protect such players when they log on. So now, before embarking on their meaningful endeavor, these players that are just logging on for a few minutes need to check and see if there is someone there to protect them.

Obviously, the end result of all of this is that players won't just log in to the game to do these daily quests after they realize how inconsistent there likelihood of success with them actually is.

Killing a single mob is not nothing.
These dailies aren't "Kill one of any mob." They are like, "Kill 1 Sladeborne."

If that Sladeborne is a rare spawn that there is only 1 of, and that takes 15 minutes to respawn after being killed, that is somewhat meaningful (it means you need to beat other players to it).

If that Sladeborne is a group encounter, that is somewhat meaningful (it means you need to work with others).

If that sladeborne is not a group encounter, and is either a triggered spawn for anyone that has this daily quest, is an encounter that respawns within a minute of being killed, or there is an area in which more than five of them exist simultaneously, then killing one is meaningless.

Daily quests are meaningful because the results stack for the Node and/or caravan or temple or library or thieve's guild, etc.

All content does this, which means this is not a reason to consider a daily quest meaningful past being additional rewards on top of performing the action taken. This is literally just a case of getting additional rewards for the same effort (killing a Sladeborne). I mean, we know killing level appropriate mobs will give experience to both us and the node, so getting more experience for us and the node is literally just getting more shit for free.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

I mean, we know killing level appropriate mobs will give experience to both us and the node, so getting more experience for us and the node is literally just getting more shit for free.

That is an incoherent sentence.

Wandering Mist

Damokles wrote: »

Okay, i just have to ask:
I for one want dailies like "Bring 10 boar meat to the tavern." Or "Collect 20 pieces of wood in the nearby forrest and bring them to the quartermaster."
The only reward from them would be gold, exp and node exp contribution.

What is so bad about this? People on the "no dailies" side of the argument are all saying how bad dailies are and that they supposedly ruin the game experience / cause INFLATION OF THE INGAME ECONOMY of all things (pretty laughable tbh, and yes one of you did say that).

If you dont want to do dailies, then fine dont do dailies. No one forces you to. But there are some people like me that like to do dailies on off days, where you dont have enough motivation to do real quests, and just want to grind a bit of repeatable easy content.
To exclude a thing, because other people dont like it even though there is a large number of people who like it (most casuals) is dumb in my opinion...

I am against dailies because they contribute to the skinner box that plagues many mmorpgs, and my experience has taught me never to trust such systems because I know how greedy games companies can be.

Inflation of the in-game economy is always going to happen in any mmorpg, no matter how many different gold sinks you put into the game. Dailies don't really contribute to that anymore than any other mmorpg activity.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I mean, we know killing level appropriate mobs will give experience to both us and the node, so getting more experience for us and the node is literally just getting more shit for free.

That is an incoherent sentence.

The act of killing a level appropriate mob gives experience to the player and to the node, a quest that gives experience for killing a single mob that itself gives experience is just doubling up on the experience given for killing that one mob.

That is just getting shit for free.

Dygz

I have never advocated Daily Quests rewarding xp.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

I have never advocated Daily Quests rewarding xp.

Dygz wrote: »

Daily quests are meaningful because the results stack for the Node and/or caravan or temple or library or thieve's guild, etc.

How are daily quest rewards supposed to help a node if they don't reward experience?

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