noaani wrote: » wolfwood82 wrote: » noaani wrote: » Adoribus wrote: » noaani wrote: » Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away. In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes. This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time. There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games. Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible. Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things. Not really. Being ready for combat just means higher tension and anxiety. Combat hasn't actually started yet, so there's know real difference between the two systems. It's also an irrelevant case for AoC because you can be ready with TAB abilities for quick responses to an ambush rather then being forced to "be ready for action combat". Action combat is more engaging though, so it's more mentally fatiguing. You're correct about prolonged periods of it being tiring, but it's viable exercise believe it or not. Meaning if you stick to prolonged periods of action combat, you'll eventually acclimate to it and be "stronger" mentally. To me, the difference is in the level of tension and anxiety that each system causes before combat starts. With a tab based opening to combat, a player need not be any more ready than to press tab or tilde, and then begin attacking. There is no need for a heightened state of readiness at all, past a general awareness of your surroundings. With action combat, you need to be ready to precision aim (or reasonably accurately aim) at a moments notice. Now, this may well just be me. It could be the fact that I am so at home with tab target combat systems that I am able to go from slouching back in my chair listening to some music and drinking a pinot to fully engaged in combat in less time than it takes me to actually even think to put my wine down and not actually miss a beat. Basically, what I am saying is that if I am not in combat in a tab target game, I am completely at rest, even if there is a real threat of attack. Now, I'm not going to use my experiences in action combat games as reference, as I know full well that I haven't played as many action games as others would have. However, I have yet to see anyone claim they can go from an at rest state to fully engaged in combat in an action game as quickly and without missing anything. Players in action games need to maintain less of a rest state (or more of a heightened state of readiness) in order to not be at a disadvantage should combat start without warning. It may well be that when a player is at home with action combat as I am with tab target combat, they are able to be at that same rest state and still be able to initiate combat with the same level of ease - but as I said above, I've yet to see anyone make that claim. Even prominent streamers that make millions off of playing their games (an industry I will never understand) are at a heightened state the whole time. This will only ever be a factor when players are out in the world for hours on end, and so for gamers that have no intention of this level of play it will never be an issue.
wolfwood82 wrote: » noaani wrote: » Adoribus wrote: » noaani wrote: » Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away. In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes. This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time. There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games. Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible. Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things. Not really. Being ready for combat just means higher tension and anxiety. Combat hasn't actually started yet, so there's know real difference between the two systems. It's also an irrelevant case for AoC because you can be ready with TAB abilities for quick responses to an ambush rather then being forced to "be ready for action combat". Action combat is more engaging though, so it's more mentally fatiguing. You're correct about prolonged periods of it being tiring, but it's viable exercise believe it or not. Meaning if you stick to prolonged periods of action combat, you'll eventually acclimate to it and be "stronger" mentally.
noaani wrote: » Adoribus wrote: » noaani wrote: » Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away. In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes. This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time. There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games. Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible. Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things.
Adoribus wrote: » noaani wrote: » Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away. In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes. This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time. There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games. Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible.
noaani wrote: » Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away. In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes. This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time. There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » Encounters in tab games don't get their difficulty from the tab system itself and instead the difficulty comes from other aspects of the combat. I mean, yeah, but proper use of any system is something that separates good players from great players. If an encounter spawns a group of 12 adds all with the same art assets and name, but with different abilities, and the tank needs to instantly target the correct one mob in that group of adds, if they know the correct target command/target option to target the mob with the abilities that they need to target first, then that tank is clearly going to be better than a tank that doesn't know the correct command/target option.
mcstackerson wrote: » Encounters in tab games don't get their difficulty from the tab system itself and instead the difficulty comes from other aspects of the combat.
Ventharien wrote: » But remember @mcstackerson, Those streamers most often jump into the most action possible to keep viewers engaged and watching. The fatiguing, stressful part is walking through that clearing knowing at any second there could be an explosion of sound and action. And ratchet that up to 10 if you're carrying some valuable, or have a set goal you are trying to accomplish. I think @noaani has a point, that that level of engagement can be tiring, but i also think it would make the world so much more awesome. Towns become bastions of safety you really value. Finding an out of the way inn to relax and afk for a second becomes a great experience. You start asking around if a path is safe for travel or if pvpers have been patrolling it. I think it would really fuel immersion.
Damokles wrote: » Okay I have to say something to this debate. Both active and tab target have pros and cons. Active pro: -highly interactive -intuitive targetting -anti stealth to a large degree -higher accuracy of movement Active con: -requires constant adjustments -requires constant surveilance of the surroundings -less informative in high action combat situations (raid or dungeon crawling for example) -skills require you to target them (healing could become problematic) What do i mean with that? Well, if we take a third person action combat like apoc for example... the player has to keep on his toes, enemies could be spawning behind him at any point. If you want to look around you, means that you have to turn your character midstride, which would slow you down while advancing. A active combat system also allows you to sweep for invisible enemies, if you know that a rogue is actually fighting you. You are not reliant on the syste to tell you that someone is there, you can just directly target him. Tab pro: -more tactical -easier to keep your surroundings in check -skills will automatically land on your enemy and dont require your targetting -doesnt require you to spend too much energy in combat, and lets you focus on other things Tab con: -repettetive -boring for dps characters I for one would say that both systems are good for the people that they target. Tab targetting is better for tanks and healers, who have to keep their surroundings in check, and where it would be counter productive to target all their skills manually. Healers for example, could give through important information to dps classes (like boss cds, terrain changes, raid cd, etc). Active combat was literally designed for dps classes. It gives them the high action feeling that they need to be engaged with their role. I have to admit that i nearly began to snooze away during multiple bosss fights in wow, because it is not really engaging to play a dps once you got your rotation memorized as muscle memories. XD Dont forget, we will always be able to choose how much action and tabtargetting we will have, with a min of one being at least 25%. Open world would be easier to traverse in in tab targetting in my opinion.
Nodoff wrote: » For me, it's simple... I LOATHE tab targeting MMOs, and want nothing to do with that style of combat. BDO has my favorite style of combat in an mmo to date, followed by Tera.
mcstackerson wrote: » People play games like fortnite as well as other games that require aiming for hours. Go to twitch and watch them. I think you are exaggerating this point of how fatiguing it is. I've gone to many lans where we played games like halo, cod, pubg for 12-24+ hours. I don't think it's any more fatiguing then playing wow or swtor for that long. Hell, i don't think i noticed myself being more fatigued compared to me playing DnD for that long. It wasn't like i play pubg for an afternoon and need to pass out where if i played wow, i could keep going.
mcstackerson wrote: » So you have a variety of buttons with targeting is based of the certain actions/types of actions i.e. casting spells, heal, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong but these buttons would seem to become increasingly useless outside of scripted encounters as the number of enemies increases.
mcstackerson wrote: » All tab means is your abilities go to a target.
perseus01 wrote: » . As for my two cents, I just wanna play the damn game!
noaani wrote: » People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere. However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually. With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer. It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.
noaani wrote: » mcstackerson wrote: » All tab means is your abilities go to a target. I agree with the bulk of your post, but not this part - which is a weird thing as it is a factually correct statement. The reason I disagree is because even though it is technically correct, it isn't a point worth making. A develop could take an action combat game and replace the targeting system with a tab one. Thing is, if that action combat was designed to be fun an engaging, when it is moved to tab it will not be as fun and engaging. The reason people like tab target games isn't because the targeting is easier, it is because the fun and engagement of the combat system is moved from targeting to other factors. So while your above statement is technically true, it is not taking in to account the fact that every player and every developer understands that tab target combat requires other factors of combat to be highlighted in order to make it work.
mcstackerson wrote: » This quote about how tab is more tactical and my point was all those things related to your class/abilities you find fun/engaging/tactical in a tab system can also exist in a free aim systems. Tab and aiming are just delivery systems for your skills. As you said, you prefer not worry about aiming and focus on your class/abilities as well as other aspects of combat (my words but i assume this is the case) and that's cool. My point is that you can have the same depth in class and ability systems in a free aim system. The difference is you have aiming layered on top.
mcstackerson wrote: » My point is that you can have the same depth in class and ability systems in a free aim system. The difference is you have aiming layered on top.
mcstackerson wrote: » noaani wrote: » People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere. However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually. With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer. It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier. I was using twitch as an example of where you can see people playing these games for long periods of time but they are not the only ones. There are plenty of people, who play games that require aiming for hours. Downtime is very minimal as match making usually does a good job of getting you back in games but i think that's beside the point. Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty. If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was. You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?
Wandering Mist wrote: » Nodoff wrote: » For me, it's simple... I LOATHE tab targeting MMOs, and want nothing to do with that style of combat. BDO has my favorite style of combat in an mmo to date, followed by Tera. That's quite a strong opinion you have there @Nodoff . What don't you like about tab targeting combat systems?
Magic Man wrote: » Fully agreed. People here keep thinking of 'action MMOs' they've played (although minority, even on the forums where generally old school gamers dwell) and go like ''tab target has more depth'', ''I think the tab-targeting permits us more dynamism than you can ever find in other action MMOs.''. What they don't seem to get is that there has never been a truly action based MMORPG. It's either soft targeting or the AoE spam that is BDO (even those games with all their deficiencies, succeeded in drawing people from games with tab target).
As mentioned multiple times and recently by @mcstackerson , tab targeting essentially is having the necessity of a target being selected in order to use your abilities - It's simply a method that bypasses aiming. Anything you do in tab target games, you can technically do in action ones. Not only this is a fact but also what Steven considers ''tab targeting''. ''Action'' would be any ability that does not require a target to be used (again, by the definition of Steven). This includes AoEs and placeable abilities, teleporting/blinking in a direction as well as manual aiming you see in APOC - literally everything that isn't target based. Therefore, when Intrepid says that they will have a ''hybrid combat'' system, it's really not confusing or hard to understand at all. You will choose how much action or tab abilities you want in your action bar (up tp 75% on either one) and your choices will have consequences - just like anything you'll do in this game, so choose wisely. Hybrid combat is by no means something ground breaking or extremely innovative. We have many example of such games already such as Guild Wars 2 (only lacking the manual third person aiming of APOC). I know you were joking @perseus01 but still, rest assured, it won't be ''clunky-ass box of rocks 👀''. The tab target enthusiasts are having trouble to understand how merging of action combat will happen but that is perhaps the result of miscommunication or lack thereof. Point being, don't let your biases cloud your judgement about anything - think and learn for yourselves and try not to relate to your past experiences of ''tab target'' or ''action combat'' MMORPGs because those definitions and the gameplay attached to them, are not relevant for Ashes of Creation. You may use the definitions of both system I mentioned above (both confirmed by Steven) to have a better understanding of the hybrid combat we will have in the MMORPG.
