Hybrid Combat System Poll

What style do you see yourself playing most?
[Poll]
-Mouse
-AWSD
-Both/Hybrid
[/Poll]

Is there no way to make a poll or am I missing some code?

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mcstackerson

noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere.

However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.

With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.

It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.

I was using twitch as an example of where you can see people playing these games for long periods of time but they are not the only ones. There are plenty of people, who play games that require aiming for hours. Downtime is very minimal as match making usually does a good job of getting you back in games but i think that's beside the point.

Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty.

If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was.

You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?

I literally never got attacked in all the time I played BDO, so I don't consider it a game worth bringing up in a discussion about players being in a heightened state.

Any game that involves match making also doesn't apply, as I have already said. While some players may play the game for hours, the simple fact that they have a break between matches is all that it takes to ease the stress (and I use the term stress lightly).

When you are on alert like that, it only takes a minute or two away from it to break things up and provide the player with some respite. Additionally, the time between matches gives players an opportunity to step away from the computer for what ever reason they may need to without issue of worry - something Ashes players out in the open have no way of achieving that we know of.

It's all well and good you saying that you don't think it will be an issue. I do. We have different opinions and that's cool.

Thing is, there is no way either of us can see who is right and who is wrong, as no game developer has made a game where it is possible to put yourself in that position, for that long and with action combat. I could use the fact that no games that make this possible exist as a form of proof that I am right - but absence of evidence is not evidence.

Even Ashes beta won't provide a suitable environment to test this, as it is as reliant on other players as much as any other factor, and most players don't play how they normally would during a beta.

So we have to wait until a while after launch in order to see if this does become an issue. To me, this in itself is an issue - even if the issue as I see it doesn't play out how I think it will (problem noticed 4 - 6 months after launch, developers recognize and admit it less than 9 months after launch, 12 - 15 months after launch combat has a it's first major revamp/rebalance that reduces the action aspects of action combat by a small amount, but across the board).

But it kind of is about *can*. It's about certain aspects not being unique to tab.

You could most definitely make a combat system that is too much for players and you could layer aiming on top of it but that is beside the point. I don't think any traditional combat system comes close to being that hard and to make one that difficult, it would have to become extremely abstract, to the point it would not look anything like a traditional combat system.

Maybe it would help if we got an example. Please tell me the name of a tab game that you think would be too difficult to play in a free aim system. Lets assume any skills with a travel time are projectiles and instant abilities are raycast/hitscan. If you can't think of one, maybe you could make one up or make change a game you know?

You are trying to make an argument that they might exceed some difficulty cap they set for themselves.

First, that still doesn't change the fact you can make it free aim. Just because it becomes more difficult then planned doesn't mean you can't do it. It also doesn't mean people can't play it because it's more difficult then planned.

Second, the difficulty isn't just defined by the character controls/abilities. it's the character controls/abilities against whatever you have to fight in the game. In some games, equipment is also a deciding factor on how hard the game is. Playing an rpg naked is usually harder then playing it fully geared in the best stuff.

Third, if you really need to get back to your arbitrary difficulty cap, you can do something similar to what they are doing with the hybrid system and alter skills to make them more rewarding to land (i.e. more damage, healing).

I think the bottom line is that no combat system gets anywhere near that hard and if it did, it still could have aiming layered on top.

noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere.

However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.

With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.

It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.

I was using twitch as an example of where you can see people playing these games for long periods of time but they are not the only ones. There are plenty of people, who play games that require aiming for hours. Downtime is very minimal as match making usually does a good job of getting you back in games but i think that's beside the point.

Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty.

If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was.

You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?

I literally never got attacked in all the time I played BDO, so I don't consider it a game worth bringing up in a discussion about players being in a heightened state.

Any game that involves match making also doesn't apply, as I have already said. While some players may play the game for hours, the simple fact that they have a break between matches is all that it takes to ease the stress (and I use the term stress lightly).

When you are on alert like that, it only takes a minute or two away from it to break things up and provide the player with some respite. Additionally, the time between matches gives players an opportunity to step away from the computer for what ever reason they may need to without issue of worry - something Ashes players out in the open have no way of achieving that we know of.

It's all well and good you saying that you don't think it will be an issue. I do. We have different opinions and that's cool.

Thing is, there is no way either of us can see who is right and who is wrong, as no game developer has made a game where it is possible to put yourself in that position, for that long and with action combat. I could use the fact that no games that make this possible exist as a form of proof that I am right - but absence of evidence is not evidence.

Even Ashes beta won't provide a suitable environment to test this, as it is as reliant on other players as much as any other factor, and most players don't play how they normally would during a beta.

So we have to wait until a while after launch in order to see if this does become an issue. To me, this in itself is an issue - even if the issue as I see it doesn't play out how I think it will (problem noticed 4 - 6 months after launch, developers recognize and admit it less than 9 months after launch, 12 - 15 months after launch combat has a it's first major revamp/rebalance that reduces the action aspects of action combat by a small amount, but across the board).

Everything you are saying seems to point to the environment being the stresser and not the fact it requires aiming. Just because you didn't get attacked in BDO doesn't mean you couldn't be which is similar to ashes. Just because you can be attacked in ashes doesn't mean you will be.

I'm willing to agree to disagree but I think BDO fits the bill. I'm not sure how it is now but you used to be attacked relatively frequently for grinding spots, it didn't stop me from grind for whole weekends. I also didn't spend the whole time in constant fear of being attacked even though i could lose 30+ minutes if someone got me. If anything, I got in a flow and zoned out most of the time. Most importantly, the fact it required aiming didn't contribute to any stress.

You are correct though, we will see how it is when the game launches.

perseus01

*edit*

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

But it kind of is about *can*. It's about certain aspects not being unique to tab.

Oh, there is nothing in a tab system that can't be in another system, absolutely.

However, assuming you are aiming for a total system engagement point count of 10, and free aiming takes up 4 of those 10 engagement points, that means you only have 6 points left to add.

Tab targeting takes up 0 points, so you can add 10 points in other areas.

That is what a tab target system is. It is putting the focus of combat in areas other than targeting.

An example of a tab target game that pushes things to the limit of what players are able to maintain would be EQ2. Any tab target game with under 15 abilities could be easily altered to be free aiming (my disdain for such games is laid out on these forums). It's when you start to get up to 30 abilities or more, and where there is no possibility of a rotation and even a spell priority system can't account for all possibilities that taking a tab target game and making it free aiming simply wouldn't be feasible without dumbing down that tab target sytem.

mcstackerson wrote: »

Everything you are saying seems to point to the environment being the stresser and not the fact it requires aiming.

The environment is a factor, but it is the level of focus needed leading in to actual combat in an action combat game over a tab combat game.

The ready state you need to be in to begin combat when all you need to do is press tab and then press 1 is somewhat lower than the ready state you need to be in when in order to begin combat you need to target a moving character (or even target near a moving character).

It is as much about anticipation anxiety as it is anything else.

Dygz

Damokles wrote: »

I for one would say that both systems are good for the people that they target. Tab targeting is better for tanks and healers, who have to keep their surroundings in check, and where it would be counter productive to target all their skills manually. Healers for example, could give through important information to dps classes (like boss cds, terrain changes, raid cd, etc).
Active combat was literally designed for dps classes. It gives them the high action feeling that they need to be engaged with their role. I have to admit that i nearly began to snooze away during multiple boss fights in wow, because it is not really engaging to play a dps once you got your rotation memorized as muscle memories. XD
Dont forget, we will always be able to choose how much action and tabtargeting we will have, with a min of one being at least 25%.
Open world would be easier to traverse in in tab targeting in my opinion.

My main in NWO was a healer. Aimed healing was fun - challenging and engaging because healers have to deal some damage in order to replenish healing mana. Which means turning focus from tracking players who need healing to find enough victims and then re-locating where patients are. Sometimes pets or other players might run into the path of the aim and block the heal for the intended target. But, AOEs help mitigate that issue.
In Ashes, the hybrid combat means that players can choose which they prefer. Augments will also help with that. If I felt I sucked at aimed healing, I would do 75 tab/25 action. For action, I would have as many AOEs as possible and I would attempt to add AOE healing augments to action abilities if that's available.
I don't understand why "fatigue" is an issue for a hybrid system, but I, too, commonly played NWO for 12-18 hours per day several times per week without feeling "fatigue".
Only anticipation I felt was having more fun with the action combat of NWO than with tab-target. I didn't have to be in a "state" to want to play either type of combat. I just have more fun with action than I do with tab-target.

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