Dungeon Spawn Rate

I have a question about dungeon spawn rates. Sorry, new here. )
To my understanding, there will be non instance, seamless, dungeons.
How will it prevent players from camping a boss? Whats the spawn rate?
Thanks.

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Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Yes, there is a flagging system. Its all part of the same system. So i don't know the full system until i use the full system. You don't toggle the flags. There is no toggle to my knowledge.

There is no toggle, correct.

However, if you attack another player, then you become flagged as a combatant. You don't toggle the flag to become a combatant and then attack, the act of attacking changes your flag state.

This is all stuff we have known for almost 2 years - since April 2018 to be exact.

I'm still failing to see where your confusion is - or more importantly, how any of this can lead you to state...

Neurath wrote: »

the gankers will have corruption reduced or removed because when Levitation was a problem they didn't nerf Levitation, they removed Levitation.
...
Due to the fact that PvP can't be toggled on or off means there will be people ganking, harrassing and pvping you until they can no longer find you

Like, none of that makes any sense.

At all.

Neurath wrote: »

I learn new things about Ashes every day and even with my experience they shouldn't just listen to me.

No, they shouldn't.

The two threads in which we have interacted with each other have hopefully proven to you that you don't know MMO's half as well as you think you do, because while you clearly think you're hot shit, it is obvious that you really don't know much.

As I've said several times, Intrepid WANT people to gain corruption. Since the only way to gain corruption is to kill a player that doesn't fight back (if the player fights back, both are then flagged as combatants, and you only gain corruption from killing non-combatants), Intrepid WANT one sided fights like this to happen.

They don't want them being the norm - but they want them to happen.

Songcaller

You've made my point exactly. If you hit them by mistake then you are flagged. They then can pounce on you and they will be flagged. Then they get a free kill if you don't fight back. I don't understand your confusion though when I stated they would reduce the corruption I was half in jest. I can understand you think all gankers will be corrupted but a ganker has to start somewhere. My old gaming companion was a ganker so I know the ways. I have never been a ganker so you have little to fear from me.

You can claim I know nothing of MMOs yet you are preaching bits of information stated before the alphas. I doubt even Intrepid knows how well the system works until there are players inside the system. They didn't even know their backend systems didn't work properly until we tested them. It is a natural disposition. It's the whole point of Alphas and Betas. It is not my issue if you have never done an Alpha or a Beta before but I have and I understand the processes. I can bitch about the Alpha game play because I want Intrepid to succeed. There is no value for me to play a game without other people; if this was the case I wouldn't have played so many MMOs. You expect me to be a fountain of knowledge but the Alpha hasn't even started for the MMO part. They closed down a lot of MMO videos and snippets over a year ago. I explained in the healing thread we have no new footage. Just old footage. Most players wouldn't even have entertained you this long.

Flagging systems have been around since the invention of flags.

It isn't a bad thing to be a PvPer. It isn't a bad thing for me to want to be a Bounty Hunter.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

You've made my point exactly. If you hit them by mistake then you are flagged.

Except you aren't.

They have been very clear that you need to directly attack a player in order to deal damage to them in PvP. This means no accidental damage at all.

How that will work with action combat is yet to be seen, but we know the developers intent, and until they say otherwise the assumption we have to make in this regard is that they will find a way to make it work the way they have stated they want it to work.

So, according to all information we have now, accidentally attacking another player will not be possible.

Neurath wrote: »

Then they get a free kill if you don't fight back.

With the situation as you outline it, there is no reason not to fight back.

So why wouldn't you?

Neurath wrote: »

You can claim I know nothing of MMOs yet you are preaching bits of information stated before the alphas.

I discuss things on this forum using the most recent information we have from Intrepid on the topic at hand. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is no other way of conducting such a discussion other than just making things up - which seems to be what you are doing here.

Will things change? Probably.

Can we talk about those changes before they are communicated to us? Not in any logical manner.

Neurath wrote: »

It isn't a bad thing to be a PvPer. It isn't a bad thing for me to want to be a Bounty Hunter.

I never said it was, nor did I suggest as much.

As I have said before, Ashes will need PvP'ers in the game in order for the game to function.

Songcaller

I don't understand how you think people will be flagged if its not caused by damage and there is no toggle. I'm not accusing you of anything but when you are casting AoE spells then things get damaged. How will the game know whether you want to damage a player or not? How will the game know you don't want to hit someone behind when the AoE spells are going off?

There are ways to avoid this and there are ways people will try to exploit it. I've learnt the hard way on PvP servers. I prefer RP-PvP Servers but Ashes will be PvX. I'm a roleplayer at heart and a PvPer in soul.

Some classes will have more AoE than others. It's not my place to restrict others or encourage others to gank. I mean the topic in itself is clearly inflammatory. The reason I would fight back is because I'm a PvPer. I mean to me it makes no sense to give free kills but in other games Experience was rewarded for PvP kills and PvP armour was earnt from such experience which only encouraged ganking further. There isn't PvP experience or PvP Armour to even get in Ashes of Creation. There are no PvP levels. The old games I've played I've always maxed out the PvP levels. I did it in legitimate ways such as Arenas, Battlefields, Duels and Sieges. You aren't even expected to get PvP levels or PvP Armour in Ashes of Creation the MMO.

The issue you have is the death penalties in Ashes and if I want to protect what I'm carrying I'd neither submit to an easy kill nor go corrupted. I enjoy wild abandon and won't be limiting my skills based on fear. The microcosm is so focused and skillful that it's not even easy to pull off. The more details you want me to give just promotes what I've avoided by not bringing my old gaming partner to Ashes of Creation. This is why I still believe you shouldn't base your expectations on any MMO except the MMO you are testing. This is why a rail against ground attacks and Totems for Cleric. It's like Intrepid want Cleric to be the main targets. It's not like Healers aren't main targets anyway.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I don't understand how you think people will be flagged if its not caused by damage and there is no toggle. I'm not accusing you of anything but when you are casting AoE spells then things get damaged. How will the game know whether you want to damage a player or not? How will the game know you don't want to hit someone behind when the AoE spells are going off?

With tab targeting, this is straight forward and obvious.

As I said though, with action combat it is somewhat more complex, but since it is Intrepids stated intention, you and I are currently in no position to assume anything other than that they will make it happen.

You and I are in no position to state that because we can't see how it could be done, it can't be done - and that seems to be your argument here.

You failed to address your free kill statement that I queried you about.

You said that if you attack them by mistake and flag yourself (which isn't possible, but that's ok), they could then attack you and then themselves be flagged, at which point you said that they get a free kill if you don't fight back.

My question was and is - why is that player not fighting back? Both players are flagged, neither are at risk of gaining corruption.

Undead Canuck

Get a room?

Songcaller

What are you talking about? Tab Target was the only option in past games with ganking. I've explained that until Alpha 1 the MMO is an utter mystery. It's like banging a head against a brick wall. I mean you say its impossible, they say it could happen and I say it has happened and will happen again. So really this conversation can go on all night because neither of us are in a position to test anything or validate anything. You might be wrong, I might be wrong but that doesn't my experience isn't valid.

This is why I've explained before not to use other MMOs as examples. The Hybrid System hasn't even been tested but you are stating that it's infallible. All of the old footage of the arenas at pax had totems. They were all tab to my knowledge. So I don't understand why you think the system is infallible. I'm still of the opinion that the combat should be upscaled and enhanced. The combat system in the BR can't even be used for comparison at present though the lone Castle Siege in December could be.

It is difficult for me to go beyond my own experience because Alphas have been delayed. The issue is that the concepts are theory until we can test the concepts. I mean everything we are discussing is subject to change. Everything we are discussing is seen as taboo. An AoE is an AoE whether its tab, reticulated or free-form. If a player wants to walk into AoE to be flagged to my knowledge that wouldn't be impossible unless you can explain how players will be flagged if its not from damage.

mcstackerson

Currently, the way you damage a green is by targetting them and force attacking them. It doesn't matter if it's an aoe skill, free aim skill, or a tab skill, if you have a green targeted and force attack them, either with a toggle or by holding a button, you will only damage that green (as well as any reds, purples, and mobs) in your aoe. Other greens you are not targetting will not be hit.

yes, this might be changed but that is currently how we avoid a scenario where you accidentally aoe greens.

Songcaller

Cheers McStackerson. That's awesome. I can sleep

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

The Hybrid System hasn't even been tested but you are stating that it's infallible.

No I'm not.

Neurath wrote: »

This is why I've explained before not to use other MMOs as examples.

I've not talked about other MMO's in this thread, as there is no valid reason to do so.

Neurath wrote: »

All of the old footage of the arenas at pax had totems. They were all tab to my knowledge.

The Pax demo wasn't really much of a demo - it was marketing. Nothing from that will make it to the live game without heavy alterations. And yes, it was all tab, because that was the only system they had working at that point - and I use the term "working" loosely.

Neurath wrote: »

I mean everything we are discussing is subject to change.

That is the nature of discussions on games before they go in to Alpha. We are talking theory based on the information the developers have given us, which we know is incomplete.

That is why the only valid discussions revolve around the intention of the developers, rather than around the mechanics of specific systems.

Neurath wrote: »

An AoE is an AoE whether its tab, reticulated or free-form. If a player wants to walk into AoE to be flagged to my knowledge that wouldn't be impossible unless you can explain how players will be flagged if its not from damage.

How they make the system work is none of my business, and I wouldn't ever argue otherwise.

However, I can give you an example of how it could work in a tab target situation.

They could build the combat system around AoE's needing a enemy being targeted in order to function. This could be by centering AoE's on said enemy target, though I'm sure they could make this apply to other AoE's as well if they wanted to.

Since you need to have a valid enemy target selected in order to cast an AoE, that means if you are targeting another player and cast an AoE, you are then dealing damage to that player, and any other enemy combatants or players you have engaged with that are within range of that AoE.

Your target is still flagged as a non-combatant, but is one that you are engaged against.

This means that if there is a large group of players that you want to attack, you have to attack them all individually before using AoE's on them all - meaning AoE's will likely not be what people use to initiate combat in Ashes of creation - unless they are fighting a group of players that are already flagged as combatants.

The above is what I was referring to when I said that how this could work in a tab target game is obvious - as all of the above is very obvious if you understand the intent behind the systems we have been told about so far. That is not to say it is the only way it could be done - it is merely one way it could be done and I have no desire to predict exactly what Intrepid will do.

How this would work with action targeting is yet to be seen, as I have said, and I make no claims as to knowing how Intrepid may implement such a system - other than that they have stated their intention is that accidental AoE damage will not be a thing.

Damokles

Here is how i understood it:
There are three states a player can be in regarding PvP.
-Corrupted
-Combatant
-Non-combatant

There are open world PvP Battlefields that automatically flag you as a combatant, and you remain a combatant for a certain time after leaving them.
If a Combatant attacks and kills a non-combatant, then they get corrupted.
Corrupted players have different kinds of corruption levels making them weaker with the rising corruption.

All players start as non-combatants. AoE's dont damage non combatants. Players are automatically flagged as combatants, if they deliberately attack another player. Non-combatants, who support combatants in any kind (heal, buff, etc) will be flagged as combatants. Combatants have the least amount of death penalty of ll three flags.

So to recap: we all start out as non-combatants. We can all turn into combatants automatically, if we enter an open world battleground or if we deliberately attack another player. Combatants can be corrupted if they kill non-combatants, which weakens them.

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

Here is how i understood it:
There are three states a player can be in regarding PvP.
-Corrupted
-Combatant
-Non-combatant

There are open world PvP Battlefields that automatically flag you as a combatant, and you remain a combatant for a certain time after leaving them.
If a Combatant attacks and kills a non-combatant, then they get corrupted.
Corrupted players have different kinds of corruption levels making them weaker with the rising corruption.

All players start as non-combatants. AoE's dont damage non combatants. Players are automatically flagged as combatants, if they deliberately attack another player. Non-combatants, who support combatants in any kind (heal, buff, etc) will be flagged as combatants. Combatants have the least amount of death penalty of ll three flags.

So to recap: we all start out as non-combatants. We can all turn into combatants automatically, if we enter an open world battleground or if we deliberately attack another player. Combatants can be corrupted if they kill non-combatants, which weakens them.

Yep, that is my understanding of it as well, as well as what is contained in the wiki (though this is a more succinct version).

I was for some reason under the impression that once you attacked a player, if you then targeted another player your AoE's would still deal damage to the first player if they are in range, even if they do not flag as a combatant. However, I can't find any info on this and so have to assume that I was mistaken.

The net result here is that AoE's will only be effective in open world PvP once the entire opposition have flagged as combatants.

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Here is how i understood it:
There are three states a player can be in regarding PvP.
-Corrupted
-Combatant
-Non-combatant

There are open world PvP Battlefields that automatically flag you as a combatant, and you remain a combatant for a certain time after leaving them.
If a Combatant attacks and kills a non-combatant, then they get corrupted.
Corrupted players have different kinds of corruption levels making them weaker with the rising corruption.

All players start as non-combatants. AoE's dont damage non combatants. Players are automatically flagged as combatants, if they deliberately attack another player. Non-combatants, who support combatants in any kind (heal, buff, etc) will be flagged as combatants. Combatants have the least amount of death penalty of ll three flags.

So to recap: we all start out as non-combatants. We can all turn into combatants automatically, if we enter an open world battleground or if we deliberately attack another player. Combatants can be corrupted if they kill non-combatants, which weakens them.

from what I have read on the wiki this seems right and should be pinned

consultant

Well did not mean to start of another corruption thread just saying people ganking at dungeoun entrances will probably still happen if it does hopefully Intrepid will step in and fix if not well guess it is working as intended.

Gimlog

I don't remembers when be the questions about entrances of dungeon being pvp zone as been ask and i don't remember the answers

but there is a answer somewhere in a Q&A

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

Well did not mean to start of another corruption thread just saying people ganking at dungeoun entrances will probably still happen if it does hopefully Intrepid will step in and fix if not well guess it is working as intended.

I personally think a few things will be done differently by players in Ashes than in other recent MMO's.

Rather than using a dungeon entrance as a gathering point (and risk attack), I can see groups forming in the nearest node and travelling there together.

That said, the biggest risk in PvP that I see is the opportunistic passer by. I doubt we'll see that many people making a habbit out of attacking others (some, for sure. Just not that many). These opportunistic players are just as likely to attack inside the dungeon as outside of it.

Damokles

Well guys, it all depends on one thing: if dungeons are pvp zones or not. If they are infact pvp battlegrounds, then i would say it will quickly become a free for all. If not, then people will watch out more and bounty hunters will also frequent dungeons regularly to hunt their bounties.

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

Well guys, it all depends on one thing: if dungeons are pvp zones or not. If they are infact pvp battlegrounds, then i would say it will quickly become a free for all. If not, then people will watch out more and bounty hunters will also frequent dungeons regularly to hunt their bounties.

On some servers I can see a free for all situation happening, I guess.

But if two groups come across each ither deep in a dungeon, I can see diplomatic solutions prevailing more often than not.

I mean, when you look at the randomised respawning, all it would take to end your groups run through that dungeon is if the other group kills your healer (assuming standard mechanics). You could wipe the other group out completely, but if they kill your healer and they have to respawn, your groups run is effectively over.

I know from my perspective, if a diplomatic solution exists, I'll try to make use of it first.

Gimlog

Something that will impact all those things is the density of dungeons and so density of players around them.

Late game dungeon will probably be the fewest.
There is a lot of unknown stuff but there is for sure at least one dungeon that will be influenced by the numbers and type of each metropolis.
( the localisation of this one will have a lot of impact on the world)

There should be 5 dungeons base of each metropolis.
But for the others nodes we don't know if each will have a dungeon ( could be 103 dungeon if so )
Or if each nodes as a probability to have a dungeons withings his ZOI determined by is lvl and the numbers of dungeons in near areas , it could scale down.

But in the end the world will be a living and breathing mosaics with few fast travel where dungeons will be scattered all around.

So in the end there may not be that much players at the same time around a given dungeon and conflicts should be avoid most of the time.

Damokles

OKay, I now made my question for the livestream: Do open world dungeons count simultaneously as open world battlegrounds or not?

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