The True Potential of Ashes of Creation

It is no secret that the genre has been struggling lately as a whole with only few MMORPGs out there that keeps it barely alive. There are themepark titles such as WoW and FFXIV which, in terms of player base make up a good majority of total number of MMORPGers. There are also 'sandbox' MMORPGs such as BDO, EVE Online, Albion Online and some others. Lastly, there are some that could be considered 'hybrids' such as ESO, Archeage and Runescape. They appeal to different kinds of gamers for a variety of subjective reasons.

Most of those games are established titles with healthy populations (in MMO standards) and they always try to keep things interesting by releasing expansions and such. Intrepid plans to combine the best bits of all the aforementioned games in an old school MMORPG manner but with innovative features that may very well change our perception of what an MMORPG can be. At first, some may think that Ashes will feed on the leavers of those games..after all it makes sense, it plans to have everything those games have to offer and more.

However, it may be a little more complicated than that. MMORPG player base, unfortunately, isn't as big as some other genres', therefore, people in the 'hybrid' category, most likely play, or have played the other MMOs mentioned. Some sticked to one or two while others stopped playing constantly a long time ago, only to play when a new expansion releases or stopped playing MMOs altogether...

We all have different reasons for being here. Some are interested in Ashes because they are ''MMO junkies'' who play literally every MMORPG in the market without exception or any set standard (except P2W, that's the red line). Some want this game to be their ''next big thing'' so they associate Ashes with their past MMORPG experiences while others are excited for something fresh and new. One may of course, have all or same of those reasons combined.

With what I've gathered from the currently small, but highly active Ashes community, I listed a number of things that make the genre the way it is now. These are basically what hold a considerable amount of people from enjoying the MMOs in the market:

Hand holding which is the main issue for many
Mediocre stories in story based MMOs
Pay to win
non-immersive worlds (includes many things)
PvP being afterthought and even then giving no real reason to participate in it
Almost no real challenge in quests
Too simple dungeons/raids until the end game
Too slow/too fast, unstrategic/unengaging combat
Unappealing UI
No real meaning or consequences to your actions
Almost no risk involved other than RNG elements

Ashes promises solutions to all these issues with its five main design pillars which are Engaging and Immersive Story, a Reactive World, Player Interaction, Player Agency, and Risk vs Reward. More details can be found here for new comers: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars

Without doubt, Ashes of Creation will succeed in being one of the top 5 most popular MMORPGs in the market, if it can deliver what's been promised. The concept of it alone had led to 40k+ people backing the game with 700k+ registered accounts. Although it is awesome that these issues will finally be addressed, what I mean by the 'true potential' of Ashes isn't the sheer number of people playing it but something far greater - being an example of a ''successful MMORPG'' therefore changing the genre for good. I just think of the MMOs, 10 years from now that may try and copy or perhaps even improve the mechanics of Ashes..and that gets me excited all over again 🙂 It may seem too early to even type these and all of this is based on the scenario that the game does successfully launch with full compliance to its design pillars and non P2W stance but I believe Intrepid can bring the change to this genre and help it return to its glory days with its extremely talented and dedicated developers 🐝💚

What are your thoughts on this glorious Ashes Community - to what extent do you agree or disagree with me?

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Comments

Wandering Mist

@Magic Man You keep using this word "potential". Potential is an interesting phenomenon because everything has potential. If you look at a newborn baby, that baby has the potential to be the next Albert Einstein or the next Adolf Hitler, or just your average Joe Bloggs on minimum wage. The point is that hyping up something/someone's potential is rather pointless in my opinion. As such I agree with @noaani that we shouldn't get too caught up in the hype and marketing. As they said previously, literally every mmorpg developer claims that their game is going to be the next big thing, the one game that completely changes the video game industry, ends starvation and brings peace to the world. Guess what, none of them do.

Even the "best" mmorpgs have huge flaws in them, and I have no doubt that Ashes will follow in that line. Potential is all well and good but right now we don't have much more than Intrepid's word to go on. Now I'm not saying that Intrepid ARE going to fail, I will reserve judgement until I've had a chance to experience the game with my own 2 hands. But at the same time I'm not going to make the mistake of thinking Ashes is going to change the world even if they do deliver everything they promise.

My biggest concern is that Intrepid will try too hard to please everyone. This never works. It is impossible to please everyone equally and trying to often leads to disappointing more people than you please.

One thing to keep in mind with all of this is that Ashes of Creation is very much Steven's game. It's HIS vision, HIS ideals that are shaping the game, based on HIS mmorpg experience. Because of this there is a high chance that he will do things that he believes are right for the game, but may turn out wrong.

As for story, we actually haven't seen too much of that yet. Most of the lore has been basic worldbuilding, which is different to story. Right now Intrepid (through APOC) are laying down the foundations. This is how the world is, why it is like that and what happened to make it this way. The story won't actually begin until we first log in to the mmorpg.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Now I'm not saying that Intrepid ARE going to fail, I will reserve judgement until I've had a chance to experience the game with my own 2 hands.

Indeed. I am the same.

IMO, There is potential for some value in discussion as to whether or not Ashes will meet it's potential, and which areas we think are likely or not likely.

There is also - once again imo - value in realistic discussion as to what we think we could all expect from the game when it launches. This is a discussion that is only able to be discussed in general terms right now, as we know nothing at all specific about the game.

Where there is no value at all - still imo, of course - is in any discussion where we just assume everything has gone exactly to plan.

That isn't just in terms of this game - it is in terms of life in general. You never just assume things will go according to a very complex plan that is still years in the making, and then have a discussion as to what it will mean when that plan is realized.

There is no value in that. It is little more than discussing dreams.

Magic Man

noaani wrote: »

As I said, to suggest that Ashes will do anything here that other games have not is absurd.

uhm, no it's not.

noaani wrote: »

Will the stories be told mostly via NPC dialogue?

Some will, others you will discover in Verra. At the village stage of a scientific node, you will use the library to access information about the events that happened in the world. Each server will have different events and outcomes depending on what players choose in the storyline.

noaani wrote: »

If so, will that dialogue have voice acting or not?

Okay, now I'm 100% sure you have no idea what the fuck are you talking about nor you actually read the wiki in detail @noaani . As it has been stated multiple times, there will be no voice acting in Ashes.

noaani wrote: »

Will NPC's have multiple branches of inquiry you can optionally engage them in so that you can learn more about the game world?

Yes. Go. read. the. wiki. In fact that is one of the main ways of accessing information - however, NPCs are not omniscient. There will be rumors and some will turn out to be wrong.

noaani wrote: »

Will the stories of the world be mostly told through third party narration?

No.

noaani wrote: »

Will the stories of the world be told through passive means?

As I've stated, all you do in the game will have story components. So yes, there will be a sense of 'discovery' rather than things being fed into you. There will be stories you discover that tells you indirectly of what happened in the world millenniums ago through one of the character's experiences.

noaani wrote: »

Will the stories of the world be told through books?

We don't know.

lol, just answered that.

You don't know - just like many other people who dwell on the forums here. I know you are incapable of understanding what you read, but at least give it a try. Your ignorance gives you unprecedented confidence about matters you have no idea about.

noaani wrote: »

The lore pages you refer to are not stories - they are the generic framework of the world that stories may be able to be built upon.

so don't try and send me off to a wiki page that is about the history of Verra claiming it is a story.

In those ''lore pages'' you speak of, there are links that take you to stories, one of them being Dillia's diary.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Dillia's_diary

You dumb..dumb person.

noaani wrote: »

Instead of asking if we think Ashes will see it's full potential (a valid question to ask, and one I am choosing to answer instead of the asinine one asked), you are simply making the assumption that it will, and then asking what we think that will mean for the genre.

Ashes won't reach the full potential of what Intrepid want it to be, so a discussion on what that may mean for MMO's is absolutely pointless.

Yes, this is based on the scenario that Ashes does reach its full potential. It is not 'asinine' nor anything to be surprised about. As I said before, this kind of discussion is done quite frequently both in academia and business world - tho you are probably not an accomplished person in neither of the communities so, I don't expect you to fully grasp this.

If you just said ''I find this discussion to be pointless as there are many conditions to be met. I'm personally not a fan of this kind of discussions so can't really answer your question'' I'd respect your decision and move on. But you kept talking about things which you were absolutely clueless about, claiming that you knew everything, having read the wiki and knowing ''their plans quite well''.

I wanted to reach an understanding with you (despite your ignorance and 'asinine' nature) with my last post but now I return to my original statement because you don't deserve it.

From what I've read, you are not qualified to make that statement as you don't understand what the game even has to offer. So again, I recommend you to read the wiki or Ashes101 website Jahlon has been working on for more information.

Cambiguous

Magic Man

Wandering Mist wrote: »

@Magic Man You keep using this word "potential". Potential is an interesting phenomenon because everything has potential. If you look at a newborn baby, that baby has the potential to be the next Albert Einstein or the next Adolf Hitler, or just your average Joe Bloggs on minimum wage. The point is that hyping up something/someone's potential is rather pointless in my opinion. As such I agree with noaani that we shouldn't get too caught up in the hype and marketing. As they said previously, literally every mmorpg developer claims that their game is going to be the next big thing, the one game that completely changes the video game industry, ends starvation and brings peace to the world. Guess what, none of them do.

hm I get what you are trying to say @Wandering Mist yet there are flaws in your logic. Indeed, everything has potential. That does not mean everything has the same potential. Let's go with your example. Every newborn baby do not have the potential to be the next Albert Einstein, no..not at all. There are many factors in place including genetics, the country he was born in and his family's socio-economic status. Some have more potential than others. This is the same for Ashes; it has more potential than any MMORPG that had planned to release (ever since Everquest Next imo). The holy grail of gaming is when software development and art become one thing. intrepid is pretty close imo. They have a vision and means to achieve that. This doesn't mean, of course, they will achieve their goal but the thread asks you what if they do achieve it.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Even the "best" mmorpgs have huge flaws in them, and I have no doubt that Ashes will follow in that line. Potential is all well and good but right now we don't have much more than Intrepid's word to go on. Now I'm not saying that Intrepid ARE going to fail, I will reserve judgement until I've had a chance to experience the game with my own 2 hands. But at the same time I'm not going to make the mistake of thinking Ashes is going to change the world even if they do deliver everything they promise.

Fair enough. That's completely your choice and I respect that.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

My biggest concern is that Intrepid will try too hard to please everyone. This never works. It is impossible to please everyone equally and trying to often leads to disappointing more people than you please.

They literally said this game won't be for everyone

Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay.

We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody.

- Steven Sharif

So you probably don't have to worry about that.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

One thing to keep in mind with all of this is that Ashes of Creation is very much Steven's game. It's HIS vision, HIS ideals that are shaping the game, based on HIS mmorpg experience. Because of this there is a high chance that he will do things that he believes are right for the game, but may turn out wrong.

Correct. Yet what he've said (and he said a lot) sounds appealing to many hence 800.000 registered accounts - just for the concept of the game

Wandering Mist wrote: »

As for story, we actually haven't seen too much of that yet. Most of the lore has been basic worldbuilding, which is different to story. Right now Intrepid (through APOC) are laying down the foundations. This is how the world is, why it is like that and what happened to make it this way. The story won't actually begin until we first log in to the mmorpg.

Indeed. Tho they did reveal a little. Do note that story will be created by the players and will differ from server to server depending on players' choices.

Wandering Mist

Correct. Yet what he've said (and he said a lot) sounds appealing to many hence 800.000 registered accounts - just for the concept of the game

The key word there is "concept". Here is the core concept of Ashes of Creation (taken straight from their website):

EXPERIENCE A WORLD WHERE EVERYTHING IS PERMANENTLY IMPACTED BY YOUR ACTIONS.
Explore, trade, build, and let the world take the shape of your vision. Straight from your imagination, through your will, and into everyone’s reality. What you create will be the cornerstone of the next explorers ambition.

There are many games which have the same core concept as this, and it's a concept that naturally appeals to a lot of gamers. Yet, all of these games handle this concept in very different ways. It should also be noted that just because 800,000 players register accounts with the game doesn't mean they will actually play it, even if Intrepid deliver on everything they promise.

Gimlog

@Magic Man while I do agree that the wiki is full of good stuff and everyone on this forum should ready it before writing on this forum, I have to warn you that using the 8569 pages could be turn against you because most of those pages are redundant information.

You can some time found 7 infos on one page and find 7 others pages with those 7 infos but each one have his own page...

PS: @Magic Man @noaani your debate is very interesting.
Opposing a rigorous realism vs a well informed optimism results in pointing out where IS has still progress to do in communication.

Noaani

Magic Man wrote: »

This is the same for Ashes; it has more potential than any MMORPG that had planned to release (ever since Everquest Next imo).

I agree with this completely.

However, this thread is trying to claim that this game is the next Einstein, before the kid is even born.

I'll reply to your other post in 12 hours or so. Multi-quote posts from a phone are hard.

Magic Man

noaani wrote: »

However, this thread is trying to claim that this game is the next Einstein, before the kid is even born.

No, thread simply says it has the potential to be the 'next Einstein', based on the concepts and information we have available to us.

Noaani

Magic Man wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

However, this thread is trying to claim that this game is the next Einstein, before the kid is even born.

No, thread simply says it has the potential to be the 'next Einstein', based on the concepts and information we have available to us.

Either way, wait until it's born. Don't suffocate the poor kid in premature expectations.

Magic Man wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

As I said, to suggest that Ashes will do anything here that other games have not is absurd.

uhm, no it's not.

The odd thing is, this is the one aspect of Ashes that we have a fairly good understanding of.

IN a PvP game, the bulk of the risk comes from other players - so we know what level of risk we are facing. We also have a fairly good understanding of how much we are risking (raw materials in general, finished items if we are corrupt, experience, stats etc).

None of this is unique to Ashes, and so I can't see how anyone can claim that they are doing something new here.

noaani wrote: »

The lore pages you refer to are not stories - they are the generic framework of the world that stories may be able to be built upon.

so don't try and send me off to a wiki page that is about the history of Verra claiming it is a story.

In those ''lore pages'' you speak of, there are links that take you to stories, one of them being Dillia's diary.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Dillia's_diary

You dumb..dumb person.

I listed the most common means of delivering stories to players, rather than specifically suggesting they could be used in Ashes. The point was, we don't actually know how the stories as a whole will be communicated.

This is far deeper than simply will the NPC's have voice acting or not.

Now, as for the link you provided - yeah, I've read all of that. I've always considered all of that as simply being a part of the world building that Intrepid needed to do - I certainly hope the characters contained within don't turn out to be in any way important to the game when we finally get in to it, as that is an overly underwhelming introduction to them if that is the case.

It is, however, my fault for using "needs a character" as a definition for a story which is clearly present here, so I'm happy to accept criticism here.

However, if we go back to the point I was making in terms of writing and communicating stories (that we have no reason to believe it will be any better than any other game), I have a simple question to ask you; are you considering that link you provided me as evidence that Ashes will have good story telling?

If you answer this by saying that no, you don't consider it to be that, then I would suggest you consider all of those links to be what I considered them to be originally (part of world building rather than stories). In this case, the link is pointless in the over all discussion.

On the other hand, if you consider it to be evidence of how Intrepid want to deliver stories to us in game, I'll then have to pick it apart. if you opt for this, I'll start with the simple fact that it is titled as a diary, but not written as if it were, nor is there any attempt to speak with the voice of the subject.

With just the two words in the title, I've already found two issues that make this sub-par in terms of expected quality for narration in an MMORPG.

So this is either world building, or it is shit story telling - I'm happy for you to consider it to be either. Regardless, it is not evidence that Ashes will have quality story telling, because it is not quality story telling.

As I said before, this kind of discussion is done quite frequently both in academia and business world - tho you are probably not an accomplished person in neither of the communities so, I don't expect you to fully grasp this.

While academics (a path I rejected early in life as being full of itself) are busy hypothesizing about how things may be, and business people (a path I rejected more recently due to taking up more resources than they supply) are busy creating worthlessness to keep themselves in a job, I am busy leading the teams that make things happen so that the economy can continue, and the world is able to support academia and business.

That said, I've never seen an academic or business discussion that is talking about a hypothetical that relies on a different hypothetical that has less than a 1% chance of being realized - outside of transportation safety and either physical or data security.

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