League of Legends

At this point I would recommend to the devs to play this game just for educational purposes learning about how the abilities and other game mechanics work. I have only played 21 champions some of them only ounce have 44 of them that being the case my knowledge of the game is limited cause they have almost 150 champions and I only played 21 of them. Spend most of the time palying faovorites.

I already posted a lot about it but lets take it from a different angle

League of Legends Version of

Implosion would be an area effect charge ability 2 seconds does damage over time right away when charge is complete then implosion takes place pulling target to center. So player could avoid most of the damage but mage would have to stop holding down the button right before the opposing player
left the area of effect. So mage has to pay attention.

Chain lightning would be area of effect with eight charges oveer 8 seconds If you change target or target dies then have chance to change target for more damage. Or could be done by number of times you push the button key binded to chain lightning

Wall of Force get to pick location of Wall of force near or far away from the caster. Actually may already be that way but does not look like it in the videos.

Now let me mention two other abiltities Mecha Zion Zero transforms into a train and then charges for 8 seconds but you have to guide the train or hits walls or obstacles prematurely. Stops when it hits other toons or can be stopped manually by pressing ability button again. In Ashes of creation game it could be a very fast guided delayed blast fire ball. Also same champion has shield that explodes and causes damage if not used. Champion Looks like different version of Optimus Prime.

Still have over 100 Champoins i have not even played.

Skill shots are pretty cool but the problem with skill shots is they can be avioded every time if good enough So in LoL some abilties have cast times but you can actually change the direction of or place of area of effect during cast time. Matter of fact one ability is like a guided laser that you move around with mouse.

But there are other things to mention like facing values. but think be better if you guys studied this game a bit instead. It is unreal to me what Riot does with ailities. Hopefully at leason one person at IS plays this game.

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Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Reason I said study cause really cannot put into words what some of the aibliities effects are. you Could in fact go through all abilities for all champions in 200 minutes easy just by choosing the option to do so on champions sreen with out really playing.

But It is more about very specific game mechanics like already mentioned Sions charge ability Decimating Strike. Easy to avoid so better to use it when toon is slowed or stunned or rooted. But also you can start casting in an area a player is going into like when being chased. So if you cast ability in front of toon on low health making it nearly impossible to run away so toon dies. The very nature of the ability gives the toon some strategy to learn. Real simple in fact. Real simple is lot better than no strategy.

Another thing would like to mention is there are some narrow places in the jungle so if some one is chasing you start casting it and they have no were to go but away from you.

Thing is I am talking about ONE ability I cannot post about every ability. Think it would have some value playing and studying the game from design point of view.
Paragon tried to make a 5v5 moba and they flopped. And that was Epic games triple AAA studio. So not recommending cloning. But worth taking a look at.

Abilities like Sion's Q work because of how the map is designed and how the fog of war works. As you noted, out in the open Sion's Q is ridiculously easy to dodge unless you are already cc'ed by another ability. What makes it threatening is being faced with it in a narrow corridor or Sion using it in bushes where you can't see him casting it.

The same applies to things like Fiddlesticks ultimate. I really can't imagine these types of charge up abilities working in an mmorpg where you can clearly see everything that is going on.

This kind of thing could work well in an MMO if concealment were a thing. While fog of war is not a good fit, concealment (whether in foliage, shadows or similar) could work.

Not that I'm saying this is something that should happen in Ashes, as I'd somewhat assume a system like this would need to be a part of the original design of the game in order to work.

Ishka

330K Mastery pts Sion player here, the Q itself is indeed easy to dodge, but this only depends on how you use it, even before assuming you landed a E to slow or someone CC'd your target. You can still land pretty decent Q without anything.

I'll just focus on one of hundreds of possibilities to explain my thought, since it would be endless. Let's imagine ourselves in the laning phase, in early game between 2 to 6 mins of game. Champions are between level 1~5. Enemy top laner got no boots, doran's blade or shield w/e.
As the meta says, you need to last hit creeps to gain money in order to build your champion. What's my enemy goal beside killing me and taking turret later on ? Killing creeps of course. With a proper placement you can hit a charged Q of 1s, not a fully charged one, if it goes bad you can cancel the charge to do far less, but at least hit your target for minimal damages.

Now putting this mechanic into what I imagine would be AOC, it would be quite situational to effectively use this kind of ability, but there could be situations and/or abilities that make it usable. If you pvp in a group fight, you can efficiently use it if your target is busy fighting someone else or being locked down.
In a 1v1, it could only work by preparing a situation where its use is favorable, like some CCs or making the enemy use all of its movement based abilities. Depending on the CC duration you could use your fully charged ability.

But it's obvious to say that a charged based ability have little to no chances to work if you aim for it's maximum damage output.

I could see this kind of ability being in AOC, but alone in a class's kit. As it would be a pain to successfully use it (being like sion's Q). I think it should be obtainable through a 2nd class augment...

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Reason I said study cause really cannot put into words what some of the aibliities effects are. you Could in fact go through all abilities for all champions in 200 minutes easy just by choosing the option to do so on champions sreen with out really playing.

But It is more about very specific game mechanics like already mentioned Sions charge ability Decimating Strike. Easy to avoid so better to use it when toon is slowed or stunned or rooted. But also you can start casting in an area a player is going into like when being chased. So if you cast ability in front of toon on low health making it nearly impossible to run away so toon dies. The very nature of the ability gives the toon some strategy to learn. Real simple in fact. Real simple is lot better than no strategy.

Another thing would like to mention is there are some narrow places in the jungle so if some one is chasing you start casting it and they have no were to go but away from you.

Thing is I am talking about ONE ability I cannot post about every ability. Think it would have some value playing and studying the game from design point of view.
Paragon tried to make a 5v5 moba and they flopped. And that was Epic games triple AAA studio. So not recommending cloning. But worth taking a look at.

Abilities like Sion's Q work because of how the map is designed and how the fog of war works. As you noted, out in the open Sion's Q is ridiculously easy to dodge unless you are already cc'ed by another ability. What makes it threatening is being faced with it in a narrow corridor or Sion using it in bushes where you can't see him casting it.

The same applies to things like Fiddlesticks ultimate. I really can't imagine these types of charge up abilities working in an mmorpg where you can clearly see everything that is going on.

This kind of thing could work well in an MMO if concealment were a thing. While fog of war is not a good fit, concealment (whether in foliage, shadows or similar) could work.

Not that I'm saying this is something that should happen in Ashes, as I'd somewhat assume a system like this would need to be a part of the original design of the game in order to work.

I think it's pretty much guaranteed that there will be stealth-type mechanics in Ashes, but what is your opinion on abilities that can grant stealth to allies? I've only seen a couple of games that do this and given how strong group stealth is, these abilities are usually very limited and so become very niche in their application.

consultant

It would work great for pve though. Ashes of Creation will be pve game. think it will work well in 100 plus brackets cause so many oppurtunities to synergize with other toons. So in like 250 v250 bracket be sure to be around toon that has roots or stuns for better kills. Plus it can be interupted. But so many toons it is kind of chaotic and more chance to get away with it. However in 5v5 and 3v3 and 1v1 could present bit of a problem for that ability.

Think ability like this could be put in Ashes of Creation even if they have to change the game mechanics on it like shorter charge time larger area of effect the idea is what is important not necessarily this exact ability in in this exact evvironment.1

Damokles

I mean, they could draw some inspiration from champion designs.
Lets take the rogue class and its derivatives:
Base Rogue - Talon (lunging attacks, stacking bleed, combo system with an ultimate attack that turns you invis)
Duelist - Yasuo (high mobility with dashes, expert 1v1, high skillcealing)
Shadow Guardian - Jax (disabling of opponents, defensive capabilities through dodging)
Assassin - Nocturne/Kha'Zix (high damage isolation damage, with high burst potential through opener)
Predator - Rengar/Nidalee (high situational mobility with ranged augments, example: a backstab can be executed with bow and arrow at range)
Nightspell - Kassadin (magical teleportation, anti-mage, with silencing or disruptive abilities)
Shadow Lord - Zed (summoning weapons to enhance damage, stacking those summoned weapons to ramp up damage over time, example: summoning shadow daggers that repeat your abilities which you can stack ontop of each other)
Cultist - Pyke (healing over time, sacrificing hp to cast abilities, support oriented)
Charlatan - Shaco (high mobility, psychological warfar, illusions, debuffing enemies)

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Reason I said study cause really cannot put into words what some of the aibliities effects are. you Could in fact go through all abilities for all champions in 200 minutes easy just by choosing the option to do so on champions sreen with out really playing.

But It is more about very specific game mechanics like already mentioned Sions charge ability Decimating Strike. Easy to avoid so better to use it when toon is slowed or stunned or rooted. But also you can start casting in an area a player is going into like when being chased. So if you cast ability in front of toon on low health making it nearly impossible to run away so toon dies. The very nature of the ability gives the toon some strategy to learn. Real simple in fact. Real simple is lot better than no strategy.

Another thing would like to mention is there are some narrow places in the jungle so if some one is chasing you start casting it and they have no were to go but away from you.

Thing is I am talking about ONE ability I cannot post about every ability. Think it would have some value playing and studying the game from design point of view.
Paragon tried to make a 5v5 moba and they flopped. And that was Epic games triple AAA studio. So not recommending cloning. But worth taking a look at.

Abilities like Sion's Q work because of how the map is designed and how the fog of war works. As you noted, out in the open Sion's Q is ridiculously easy to dodge unless you are already cc'ed by another ability. What makes it threatening is being faced with it in a narrow corridor or Sion using it in bushes where you can't see him casting it.

The same applies to things like Fiddlesticks ultimate. I really can't imagine these types of charge up abilities working in an mmorpg where you can clearly see everything that is going on.

This kind of thing could work well in an MMO if concealment were a thing. While fog of war is not a good fit, concealment (whether in foliage, shadows or similar) could work.

Not that I'm saying this is something that should happen in Ashes, as I'd somewhat assume a system like this would need to be a part of the original design of the game in order to work.

I think it's pretty much guaranteed that there will be stealth-type mechanics in Ashes, but what is your opinion on abilities that can grant stealth to allies? I've only seen a couple of games that do this and given how strong group stealth is, these abilities are usually very limited and so become very niche in their application.

Stealth yes, but not concealment. I would consider these to be similar though distinct things.

In an MMO, stealth is an ability that rogue types have. Concealment - to me - would be a mechanic whereby anyone could conceal themselves under or behind cover and not be seen.

EQ2 had group stealth abilities. It is useful for getting places your group otherwise couldn't, but with PvP being a somewhat prevalent factor in Ashes I'd personally consider the ability to stealth your whole group (even if only for a short time) to be too powerful.

Atama

Group stealth would be cool in PvP if it had three limitations...

1) It only works at a distance; if any member of the group gets within a certain range (let’s say close enough for a medium range attack or charging attack/leap) of an enemy, then stealth is broken.

2) An attack from anyone in the group breaks everyone’s stealth.

3) Everyone in the group has to stay within a certain distance of the person providing stealth, and anyone who gets too far away breaks stealth (but everyone else stays stealthy).

In that case it could be useful for carefully crossing a battlefield to position people, or set up for a barrage of sniping, but doesn’t allow you to deliver a whole group to surround an unaware enemy or do a mass Zerg ambush.

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

Group stealth would be cool in PvP if it had three limitations...

1) It only works at a distance; if any member of the group gets within a certain range (let’s say close enough for a medium range attack or charging attack/leap) of an enemy, then stealth is broken.

2) An attack from anyone in the group breaks everyone’s stealth.

3) Everyone in the group has to stay within a certain distance of the person providing stealth, and anyone who gets too far away breaks stealth (but everyone else stays stealthy).

In that case it could be useful for carefully crossing a battlefield to position people, or set up for a barrage of sniping, but doesn’t allow you to deliver a whole group to surround an unaware enemy or do a mass Zerg ambush.

Two out of those three restrictions applied in EQ2's group stealth.

Stealth was able to be seen through if you got close to another player - and if that player had the ability to see through stealth (and it was turned on), then they could see you all fairly clearly.

The other two were both present, and did make attempting to group stealth past an enemy (the only real use for it in a PvE game) somewhat entertaining.

I still personally think it's a little too powerful in a PvP heavy game where there are actual consequences in PvP. I mean, 5 players with this ability could stealth an entire raid of 40 players.

I don't want to be the person that drives a caravan in to that.

consultant

Wanted to add that the skins in this game are technically purely cosmetic but since spell effects and sometime other things like sounds and animations are affected it actually gives the champion a different feel to it. Like playing a frost theme and a fire theme. To me personally if have a skin and theme that I like it has a much greater impact as far as playing the toon is concerned. Kind of adding extra roleplaying value. Really hope IS would go in this direction. In the live stream some one about having a fire mage well this totally possible with skins. (obviosly not every ability could be fire based but be surpriesed what can be done). Mana shield could be fire shield wall of force could have an redish orange tint to it and so on.

Also it is free to play but company does not seem to use greedy tactics just normal free to play cash shop. Couple that with this guys make an enormous effort to make game better plus quality of life issues and find myself more apt to financial support this game. Playing a game that you know exploits there own player base takes away from the fun especially when it is never ending.

I was watching a video were Riot came out with and App that lets players play around with the graphics of the weapons used in the game. Do not know to much about it but great way for community to get involved in the game.

consultant

Correction on Original Post.

Actually was doing some testing and found out that I cannot change target area during cast time. Just targeting pointer repears at mouse curser location if you press ability agian but will not recast. Went back and striked through original statement. Sorry about innaccuracy

consultant

Well still have some more good things to say about League of Legends did a post recently about having Personal Achievements and well League of Legends came through again.

They have something called Eternals basically combat tracker for your performance live while in game pretty cool
I heard about it before but not quite sure what it was. But here is a link to video

https://youtu.be/X7DA9rWn4ro

Another thing I Wanted to mention is that Riot does some little things really well.

Chogath a monster that gets bigger the more he eats well one of his spells effects actually grows in size visually.

Mech-Sion at the beginning of the game has a speed boost like every other toon but since
he is a robot has vents in the back that open up for thrusters and guy just kind of floats away.

Malphite and earth elemental actually changes from brown to orage red color when he gets a buff by killing red jungle monster Crest of Cinders I believe.

Thing is they did not have to do these thingd but do any ways says a lot about the designers at Riot.

At this point do not see doing 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Maybe that is part of the reason there is no 5v5 bracket in WoW. Just makes sense to do it In League. Buy hey If Ashes of Creation can rise to the occasion and out do them Good for Them.

Said something about how LoL has a lot of Variety well it is great that Ashes has 8 subclasses but would also be great if it encouraged multiclassing. Some people eventually get bored with class and move on to something new. So multiclassing would be great way to keep game fresh and increase replay value of game.

Plus a toon has a huge advantage to be able to log in choose what role to play tank ranged dps melee dps and healing. And feels better being able to do those things. Even if you were to make more classes if people just play one class then classes are kind of wasted. Of course player cannot play every class but could try them just to see if they like them. No suggestions on my part on how to get more people to multi-class though just know it would benefit the game.

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

At this point do not see doing 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Maybe that is part of the reason there is no 5v5 bracket in WoW. Just makes sense to do it In League. Buy hey If Ashes of Creation can rise to the occasion and out do them Good for Them.

Ashes isn't going to focus at all on set numbers in PvP. An arena will be in the game, and there will be different brackets (a 5v5 is in there), but outside of military node mayor selection, it won't see much use or focus.

Rather than 5v5, or 10v10, the vast majority of PvP in Ashes is likely to be "however many friends I can bring v however many friends you can bring".

If I can only bring 3 friends, and you bring 250, then we have 4v251 PvP.

afar

Okay now I'd like to rant and insult everyone but I will try to stay as calm as possible

I used to play league, started when varus came out and stopped when the demon vi skin was released. League is maked by the chinese tencent and for me, the amount of occult in that game was overwhelming. Like, i'm okay with pentagrams if you have crosses on the other side, too bad what i saw there was only evil. Also their marketing and targetting is definitely aimed at kids and furries.
I wouldn't want to attract all kinds of toxic playerbase league does.
What I would take inspiration though, is, because i think intrepid already was inspired by that but i hope it will continue, the Settlers. Now it is amazing game with an amazing player base.
Also travian, a browser game, slightly p2w buy almost everyone pays, but it has amazing diplomatic and war mechanic. Just giving players the tools, it can create scenarios better than knights of the old republic, or like star control origins.
What i had in mind when i backed ashes, was that it is The Settlers mmorpg. I hope it stays that way. We do not need league which is a bad simplification of many things (like a pirate gankplank that doesn't even use a ship. Don't do that, introduce real pirate ships instead)

Wandering Mist

@afar Remember that we are talking about gameplay here so...

eague is maked by the chinese tencent and for me, the amount of occult in that game was overwhelming.

Tencent own Riot Games but they don't do anything with the gameplay, so this point is irrelevant.

Also their marketing and targetting is definitely aimed at kids and furries.

This has nothing to do with gameplay at all. Also for the record I am a furry and you'd do well not to passive-aggressively insult something you clearly know very little about. Moving on!

I wouldn't want to attract all kinds of toxic playerbase league does.

While the gameplay does play a part in the LoL toxicity, it is not by any means the only reason nor the biggest reason. The main reason why toxicity exists in LoL is because of how the matchmaking and ranking system works. Yes of course you get people complaining about "this champ is OP" but this is no different to every other multiplayer game.

What I would take inspiration though, is, because i think intrepid already was inspired by that but i hope it will continue, the Settlers. Now it is amazing game with an amazing player base.
Also travian, a browser game, slightly p2w buy almost everyone pays, but it has amazing diplomatic and war mechanic. Just giving players the tools, it can create scenarios better than knights of the old republic, or like star control origins.
What i had in mind when i backed ashes, was that it is The Settlers mmorpg. I hope it stays that way. We do not need league which is a bad simplification of many things (like a pirate gankplank that doesn't even use a ship. Don't do that, introduce real pirate ships instead)

I've never played either Settlers or Travian so I can't really comment on that. You say that you don't want Ashes of Creation to be like LoL and yet all your complains have been regarding marketing and aesthetics. Now, if you want to discuss why you don't like the gameplay, feel free, but bringing mindless hate into this discussion is pointless.

consultant

Well think Intrepid Studios should make some attemp to gets its piece of the pie in this bracket being as it is so huge a acommunity. Really classes are already made so all they have to do is come up with good maps. Plus MMO has a huge advantage to experiment with maps cause. Not like A MOBA were if the PvP is not next to awesome to pull players away from games already out there then players do not to stick for PvE content that does not exist in MOBAs.

So if they just did some trial and error with maps after the game launches and see how community reacts should be able to come up with some really good maps.

But if they do not focus on it as you say then well probably get unfocused results.

Ravudha

consultant wrote: »

Well think Intrepid Studios should make some attemp to gets its piece of the pie in this bracket being as it is so huge a acommunity.

The thing is, a 5v5 arena in an MMO is a different product to a 5v5 MOBA. So, you're really only targeting a subset of MOBA players, and we don't know how big that subset is; it could be too small to be worth it.

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

But if they do not focus on it as you say then well probably get unfocused results.

This is the point.

The idea of Ashes is to fight people out in the open, not in neat little confined boxes where you know exactly how many friends and enemies there are.

You are talking about two different games, and suggesting that Ashes try and grab a piece of the MOBA pie is no different than suggesting Ashes try and take it's piece of the casual gaming pie (much bigger and more lucritive than MOBA's) by adding in a Bejeweled mechanic to everything.

Want to cast a spell? Match three jems!
Want to swing your sword? Match three gems!
Want to craft an item? Match three gems!

Ashes is an MMO, and Intrepid want to capture a portion of the MMO playerbase. Trying to convince people that want to play a MOBA, a FPS, a BR or a casual game to instead play an MMO simply will not work, because players play the types of games they play because that is the type of game they enjoy.

If Ashes suddenly had half of it's playerbase as MOBA players, how much of the MMO content of the game do you think Intrepid would be able to focus on?

consultant

Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............
Way over 100 million players. Matter a fact 100 million players login to League every month. That is just league. Not counting Fortnight 100v100 bracket 145 million players or games like Dota. Obviously same players play both or all threee So I just went with conservative very conservative. 100 million. Yes I know league is free to play and so is fortnighte but that does not mean they will not play 5v5 bracket in Ashes of Creation or 100v100 larger events.

As far as how much focus. Well in this particular instance it is actually a very specific answer. One word in fact Maps.

So basically you are saying pvp maps are to much for Ashes of Creation to do. Everything else is already there.
So what you are saying is not relevant cause well maps is nothing compared to say something like professions. In fact I would say that it would take little resources and time to make PvP maps campared to making full set of animations for one class. Blackrock Depths one of the best dungeouns of all time took one week to make. So PvP maps not to much of a challenge to full MMO crew.

Plus we already ahve a 5v5 3v3 1v1 so all the structure for MOBA style play has to be made any ways. Tell you what tell me about the things that Ashes of Creation would have to focus on that they are not already doing if they were going to focus on 5v5 brackets and below.

They definitely have the resources to do so if they wanted. Easily. Did Ashes of Creation say that. That their focus is going to be on 100v100 events and not MOBA style events.

Not sure what makes you say that other than fact that MMOs have more pve content in them. So naturally going to spend more time on resources on that and battleground and caravans, but you are making sound like it would be a strain a stretch to many resources and time going in different directions and that is not the case for sure. Now if they do decide to just make a box and put people in it and call that 5v5 brackets and below then that is to their loss. Besides that I remeber in an early video were players in arena were destroying an objective in an arena so Know is going to be more than just a box.

What you are saying might make some sense if there was no 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Yes I know it does represent a very small Aspect of the game but that is not saying much. Yes I know Ashes is an MMO and not a MOBA or Pure PvP game that is not saying much either. While statementts are true well they do not support the idea that Ashes will have to much to do to focus on or try to groom a pvp community in smaller brackets. . Since when is pvp maps to much for MMOs to handle. You did not say pvp maps but that is what it turned out to be cause only thing that needs to be is PvP maps eveythign else is there for most part.

As far as Eteranals are concerned well that could apply to PvE and PvP. Thing is etertanls is like an small app. Since Ashes of Creation is an MMO it is not a big enough project to say well Ashes of Creation is mainly focuses on being an MMO not a MOBA. So what just an app. Not like I am asking something like dragons as playable monster race.

Your post makes no sense at all. Now if you are not interested in 5v5 brackets or MOBA style Play that is an entirely different issue all together.

And since when do maps in MOBAs and MMOs limited to certain styles.

Are you saying Ashes of creation is an MMO so I should not expect to see and app lik eternals in the game when it could easily apply to PvE and PvP that would just be ridiculous.

Your post sounds good but that is about it.

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

So basically you are saying pvp maps are to much for Ashes of Creation to do.

I'm fairly sure people are saying that if Intrepid wanted to try and tap in to that market, they would be making an MOBA, not an MMORPG.

They are different types of games, with different playerbases that have very little cross over.

Ravudha

consultant wrote: »

Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............Way over 100 million players.

1. If the subset of the 100+ million players that will also play AoC (for arenas) is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players. It's a different discussion about pulling resources to make new maps for 1000 extra people.

2. If you manage to attract a big subset of players from the 100+ million, and you attract them by promoting arenas, then it attracts (and possibly floods AoC with) the wrong player base. AoC needs a thriving player base that participates actively in the open world.

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