Environmental Developement

I do a lot of posts on Player Development. Probably need to say why. When WoW Population was about 5 million was reading forums and one of the many fun facts of WoW came out. Blizzard put out that less than 10 percent of population raided.

Now there are reasons for this like instant que especially Looking for More raid system. Plus some people do not have the time or other people just like to go fishing. But the percentage of people is so huge 4.5 million. That is pretty safe to say that lots of people that want to raid but do not. Raiding in WoW is medium difficulty. Not talking about guilds going after guild ranks just. talking about finishing raid with lets say 3 or 4 wipes. So there is a ton of people that want to raid but do not but could easily could if they just knew how.

Mcstackerson made a really good point about giving mobs similar abilities that you would find in raids. Now this may sound kind of over kill. But in PvP games like League of Legends raid mechanics are actually in a lot of player abilities.
I play Sion and that guy has and Area Effect charge abilities that has to be avoided. So if you stand in the fire 20 times most likely get killed 20 times. So Would learn to stay out fire really quickly. Some abilities area effect rays that shoot out doing damage to everything in front of them. So player has to line targets to maximize effect. Be cool if we had one or two abilities like that not appropriate for every class.

Thing is in Raids and in difficult dungeouns that causes wipes so might get removed before you learn raid or dungeoun mechanics. But if you increase the number of times a toon deals with simple raid mechanics they would most likely to be ready for it. When they finally get to a raid. So giving Mobs raid like abilities is a great idea.

As far as dungeouns are concerned simple non lethal raid mechinics could be added. Things like slime puddles that slow you. Vents that pour out venemous gas but do not kill you. Could even have little power ups like mushrooms that heal a little bit. Even something as simple as a rock that you cannot walk over but small enough to jump over. Just little things that you put in the environment to make people pay attention. The opposite of this is going through the entire dungeoun with nothing of interest but the mobs and the bosses.

Another thing I was thinking is having sounds of danger. Like steel grating, and door closing inside a dungeouns
Could also be applied to the open world just different sounds. But think key element here is that it might mean something. If certain sound always means certain mob is around then sound becomes nothing more than an alert. But if it sometimes means that there is a monster around the corner then it keeps the element of surprise. Plus keeps toon a little bit more engaged in the game.

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Ravudha

Caeryl wrote: »

When you consider Ashes is going to have raid events that effects entire areas of the map in a negative way, it would be beneficial to have a large scope of players than can tackle that challenge.

I know raids can change based on node development, but what do raids do to affect the node? I remember an example about a dragon and eternal winter but thought that was a world boss case.

Ravudha

consultant wrote: »

Ideal place to put a mentoring program is in dungeons and open world cause that is were they are going to be at one time or another.

Suppose there is a system to help players experience the content:

Raid group A kills a boss without the mentoring system.
Raid group B kills the same boss using the mentoring system.

Like everything else, the rewards for raids should match the risk. Group A accepts more risk by learning the fight without guided assistance. So how would you handle rewards? - would you have a less valuable loot table for group B?

Caeryl

Ravudha wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

When you consider Ashes is going to have raid events that effects entire areas of the map in a negative way, it would be beneficial to have a large scope of players than can tackle that challenge.

I know raids can change based on node development, but what do raids do to affect the node? I remember an example about a dragon and eternal winter but thought that was a world boss case.

A world boss is a non instanced raid, going by all the descriptions of such we’ve been given.

Ravudha

Caeryl wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

When you consider Ashes is going to have raid events that effects entire areas of the map in a negative way, it would be beneficial to have a large scope of players than can tackle that challenge.

I know raids can change based on node development, but what do raids do to affect the node? I remember an example about a dragon and eternal winter but thought that was a world boss case.

A world boss is a non instanced raid, going by all the descriptions of such we’ve been given.

Aah k, I thought this thread was more about dungeon raids, so I was curious if dungeons/dungeon mobs impacted the world somehow, which would be interesting too.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

solo

You didn't use this word previously, and I wouldn't have ever thought you were thinking solo content.

Here's the issue...

With solo content, you can either create an encounter where players use their class to it's fullest, or you can create an encounter where players disregard their class mechanics in order to follow the encounter script.

If you put an encounter in to the game that has a big attack that players should avoid, how do you force them to do that?

If it is small enough to not instantly kill a mage, it is small enough for a tank and healer to ignore. If I am that mage, I'll just be root/nuking the mob to death. If I'm a ranger, I'll be kiting it. If I'm a Summoner, I'll have a tank pet taking it on while I hang back. At this stage, you really have to ask yourself what the point of that big attack was in the first place.

Because different classes tackle content in such vastly different ways in solo content, mechanics like that simply can not work.

When you get the trinity in action though, those vastly different ways of tackling content all get condensed down in to one basic system of tanks taking damage, healers healing damage and DPS dealing damage.

It isn't until you have this basic setup in play that you can add actual mechanics to content and expect those mechanics to actually influence how players take on that piece of content.

There also could be an argument to make that players shouldn't be going from solo to raid content without taking on group content between them, at which point they will come across these mechanics. I am not making that point here, I am only bringing it up to point it out from a player perspective.

The point I am making is that those mechanics can't be implemented in to solo content in any reasonable manner - group content is the lowest common denominator in terms of where these mechanics can exist, most games already use these mechanics in group content, and players should play through group content before moving on to raid content.

Caeryl

noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

solo

The point I am making is that those mechanics can't be implemented in to solo content in any reasonable manner - group content is the lowest common denominator in terms of where these mechanics can exist, most games already use these mechanics in group content, and players should play through group content before moving on to raid content.

Then we have a fundamental disagreement. Players using their class to avoid, outheal, resist, or interrupt the damage of a large attack is the entire purpose of having those big attack. The point of the heavy hitting attack should be to require players use their class intelligently and with respect to the game world‘s enemies as a whole.

A mage and ranger should have to kite enemies or lock them down, a summoner should have to thoughtfully manage their pets, a healer should have to heal while weaving in damage, a tank should be learning to manage their resources in a fight to outlive an enemy.

Those things should not be a group-only experience. At no point do I believe a solo player should be able to disregard an enemy of their approximate level and be able to crush it without taking any measures to avoid its damage in some way. It directly leads sloppy play as they try to move up. It creates disparity between what they’ve established in solo play as acceptable, and viable combat patterns, and what is actually acceptable.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Then we have a fundamental disagreement. Players using their class to avoid, outheal, resist, or interrupt the damage of a large attack is the entire purpose of having those big attack.

I thought the idea was to get players more ready for raiding and the mechanics used there.

There is no point attempting to try and teach players how to function in raids, if the means by which they would deal with a situation are nothing at all like what they would do on a raid.

Because that's the thing - in a raid, or even a group, rangers don't kite. Mages don't root/nuke. Healers don't have to think about taking damage themselves.Tanks don't have to focus on keeping themselves alive.

If all is going well, the only two things a tank needs to consider are the position of the mobs in the area, and keeping the enemy focused on himself. All the healer needs to then do is keep that tanks health topped up. The mage and ranger need do nothing other than unload their arsenal on the target that they trust won't then turn towards them, as the tank has that under control.

There is and always will be a massive difference between what you do in group play and what you do in solo play. This is completely unavoidable - as the only game that tried to reduce that difference (GW2) had players demand from the developers that they put it back in.

The problem there was that with group content, players equaled the sum of their parts. In games with a full trinity system, they are far, far greater than the sum of their parts, and so this allows content to be made that is more challenging and more interesting.

You can not like it all you want, won't change the facts of the matter.

Caeryl

noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Then we have a fundamental disagreement. Players using their class to avoid, outheal, resist, or interrupt the damage of a large attack is the entire purpose of having those big attack.

I thought the idea was to get players more ready for raiding and the mechanics used there.

There is no point attempting to try and teach players how to function in raids, if the means by which they would deal with a situation are nothing at all like what they would do on a raid.

Because that's the thing - in a raid, or even a group, rangers don't kite. Mages don't root/nuke. Healers don't have to think about taking damage themselves.Tanks don't have to focus on keeping themselves alive.

If all is going well, the only two things a tank needs to consider are the position of the mobs in the area, and keeping the enemy focused on himself. All the healer needs to then do is keep that tanks health topped up. The mage and ranger need do nothing other than unload their arsenal on the target that they trust won't then turn towards them, as the tank has that under control.

There is and always will be a massive difference between what you do in group play and what you do in solo play. This is completely unavoidable - as the only game that tried to reduce that difference (GW2) had players demand from the developers that they put it back in.

The problem there was that with group content, players equaled the sum of their parts. In games with a full trinity system, they are far, far greater than the sum of their parts, and so this allows content to be made that is more challenging and more interesting.

You can not like it all you want, won't change the facts of the matter.

The trinity becomes extremely boring if all raid are designs as tank-and-spank like you’ve just described.

There is no difficulty in dps races, there’s no difficulty in stat checks. The numbers game is not what makes a raid fun or challenging. I really hope Ashes will not be that shallow that a dps can expect to be wholly unprepared for a single add to catch aggro on him and that’s considered a normal expectation.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Then we have a fundamental disagreement. Players using their class to avoid, outheal, resist, or interrupt the damage of a large attack is the entire purpose of having those big attack.

I thought the idea was to get players more ready for raiding and the mechanics used there.

There is no point attempting to try and teach players how to function in raids, if the means by which they would deal with a situation are nothing at all like what they would do on a raid.

Because that's the thing - in a raid, or even a group, rangers don't kite. Mages don't root/nuke. Healers don't have to think about taking damage themselves.Tanks don't have to focus on keeping themselves alive.

If all is going well, the only two things a tank needs to consider are the position of the mobs in the area, and keeping the enemy focused on himself. All the healer needs to then do is keep that tanks health topped up. The mage and ranger need do nothing other than unload their arsenal on the target that they trust won't then turn towards them, as the tank has that under control.

There is and always will be a massive difference between what you do in group play and what you do in solo play. This is completely unavoidable - as the only game that tried to reduce that difference (GW2) had players demand from the developers that they put it back in.

The problem there was that with group content, players equaled the sum of their parts. In games with a full trinity system, they are far, far greater than the sum of their parts, and so this allows content to be made that is more challenging and more interesting.

You can not like it all you want, won't change the facts of the matter.

Ugh, I'm honestly so sad the way GW2 raids turned out. Arenanet had so much going for it by getting rid of the holy trinity class system but then ruined it later on with their raids. I would like to point out here that the players (as far as I know) never demanded a holy trinity class system. What we wanted was end-game PvE content (i.e. raids). That's it, nothing more or less.

But when players asked for raid content instead of designing raid encounters that complimented the game's combat system, they just put in WoW-style raid fights and ham-fist in tanking which the core gameplay was never designed for.

What makes this even worse is that Arenanet already got this right with the original Guildwars, which had amazing PvE group content that didn't rely on a holy trinity. Yes there were healers but no tanks since there was no threat mechanic. Mobs chose their targets based on a list of criteria including location, health and armour values. This was great because it meant that everyone had to think carefully about their position, and the casters and healers did have to learn how to kite and use CC, etc otherwise they would die very very quickly.

Noaani

I think there is some crossed wires here somewhere.

Caeryl wrote: »

The trinity becomes extremely boring if all raid are designs as tank-and-spank like you’ve just described.

I wasn't describing a raid encounter there at all, I was describing the absolute basics of what different classes do during a raid.

I was only talking about the basics of what the players do, not what the encounter, it's script or the environment require from the raid as a whole, or individuals within it.

Caeryl wrote: »

There is no difficulty in dps races, there’s no difficulty in stat checks. The numbers game is not what makes a raid fun or challenging.

Actually, topping the parse of a raid guild is a challenge - as if there are 40 raiders, only one of them is able to be at the top each time. This doesn't mean that encounter was a challenge for the raid, but the individuals in that raid had one hell of a challenge trying to be the best in that raid.

So obviously, this is a point that I completely disagree with you on, but I absolutely do fully understand where you are coming from.

I've been raiding for almost 20 years. In that time, I have played exactly one game that had a good raid game (and a total of many 10 - 12 that have poor raid games). Everything I talk about in terms of raiding are with the knowledge that a game can exist that has a good raid game like that one game I have played that had that good raid game.

Someone that has not played that one game would not have that same notion of what is possible in terms of raid content in MMO's, and this is why I understand why you think what you are saying here.

Caeryl wrote: »

I really hope Ashes will not be that shallow that a dps can expect to be wholly unprepared for a single add to catch aggro on him and that’s considered a normal expectation.

I've not talked at all about what would/should/could happen in situations where adds are spawned as a part of an encounter.

---

If you are playing a game that has classes with a single viable spell rotation in the raid game, you are playing a game with a combat system designed around solo play, with group and raid play kind of shoehorned over top of that.

This is what vanilla WoW was.

This makes for boring raids, as even if the encounter is fun, the combat system with which you are attacking that encounter is not. This is why I disdain WoW raids, and actually openly laugh at people that only use WoW as a point of discussion in terms of MMO raids.

On the other hand, if you build an actual interesting combat system, a system with built in variation, your raid could be attacking an actual training dummy and have more fun than you would have while tackling some of the most enjoyable content in other games.

This is actually something I've done this in past. I took a few members of my brothers WoW raid guild, logged them in to level capped characters in another game (I usually have 4 or 5 accounts if I am serious about a game), and we attacked a training dummy for several hours. It was fun, and they had more fun with that than they had while raiding in any expansion in WoW.

You can complain that the trinity makes games boring all you want, and in the case of most games, I'd agree that the games themselves are boring. However, as someone that has played a game that is far from boring, despite using the trinity to a far greater degree than any other MMO I've played, I am able to say outright that it is not the trinity system you are actually finding boring, it is the implementation of it in the games you have played.

Since you have not played a game with a good implementation of that system though, I am not blaming you for this, but rather the developers of the bulk of MMO's out there that don't know how to develop a class that is able to function solo, but is also able to be actually interesting to play while grouping or raiding.

Plateau

noaani wrote: »

I have played exactly one game that had a good raid game (and a total of many 10 - 12 that have poor raid games). Everything I talk about in terms of raiding are with the knowledge that a game can exist that has a good raid game like that one game I have played that had that good raid game.

What game??? And why are you trying not to mention it by name?

I'd guess it's because you don't want to nitpick about the specifics of one game, and would rather keep the discussion more holistic. But if you're going to hinge a bunch of your opinions and arguments on that one game, then we kinda need to know what it is.

Noaani

leonerdo wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I have played exactly one game that had a good raid game (and a total of many 10 - 12 that have poor raid games). Everything I talk about in terms of raiding are with the knowledge that a game can exist that has a good raid game like that one game I have played that had that good raid game.

What game??? And why are you trying not to mention it by name?

I'd guess it's because you don't want to nitpick about the specifics of one game, and would rather keep the discussion more holistic. But if you're going to hinge a bunch of your opinions and arguments on that one game, then we kinda need to know what it is.

EQ2.

But yeah, in this conversation, it's more about the fact that these things have been done and can be built and improved upon rather than where they were done.

It's also worth pointing out that I wouldn't want EQ2 copied verbatim. It got a good amount right, but also got a lot wrong. In the same way a game should look to Archeage, take the good things it had (some aspects of the crafting system, the farming system, naval combat), and ignore the bad aspects (other aspects of the crafting system, P2W, etc), the same could be done with EQ2.

consultant

Ravudha wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Ideal place to put a mentoring program is in dungeons and open world cause that is were they are going to be at one time or another.

Suppose there is a system to help players experience the content:

Raid group A kills a boss without the mentoring system.
Raid group B kills the same boss using the mentoring system.

Like everything else, the rewards for raids should match the risk. Group A accepts more risk by learning the fight without guided assistance. So how would you handle rewards? - would you have a less valuable loot table for group B?

Well the mentoring program would be in dungeouns and in open world. Think just about every one gets geared for raids in dungeouns. Unless toon is going not do dungeouns and get all gear through professions. So will Group A does exist it is not exist in a high enough number for it to be an issue. Thinking almost all people that play MMOs do dungeouns. So while there is a group A (people that play MMOs that do not do dungeouns but go straight to raids) that number is so small that group A does not matter.

In other words almost all the people are going to be in group B so....

Does anyone know of any one that plays MMOs but does not do dungeouns?

Ravudha

consultant wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Ideal place to put a mentoring program is in dungeons and open world cause that is were they are going to be at one time or another.

Suppose there is a system to help players experience the content:

Raid group A kills a boss without the mentoring system.
Raid group B kills the same boss using the mentoring system.

Like everything else, the rewards for raids should match the risk. Group A accepts more risk by learning the fight without guided assistance. So how would you handle rewards? - would you have a less valuable loot table for group B?

Well the mentoring program would be in dungeouns and in open world. Think just about every one gets geared for raids in dungeouns. Unless toon is going not do dungeouns and get all gear through professions. So will Group A does exist it is not exist in a high enough number for it to be an issue. Thinking almost all people that play MMOs do dungeouns. So while there is a group A (people that play MMOs that do not do dungeouns but go straight to raids) that number is so small that group A does not matter.

In other words almost all the people are going to be in group B so....

Does anyone know of any one that plays MMOs but does not do dungeouns?

Ok, then just replace the word 'raids' with 'dungeons' in my post.

Group A completes the dungeon with no help from the mentoring program.
Group B completes the dungeon by getting help from the mentoring program.

Should group B get the same rewards / boss drops as group A? It's an open question I'm thinking about.

consultant

Well see mentoring program will be integrated into dungeouns so player does not have a choice dungeouns are just more raid like so Every one will be in group B and not Group A

Noaani

consultant wrote: »

Well see mentoring program will be integrated into dungeouns so player does not have a choice dungeouns are just more raid like so Every one will be in group B and not Group A

So you want hand holding on all content, all the time.

Thing is, this still wont work.

I've been trying to say, payers play up until they reach the challenge they want, and that is where they stop.

The only way to get players that currently want to stop with the challenging aspects of the game half way through group content is to make all content easier.

Then all you are doing is removing challenging content for people that want that challenge.

You can't make a piece of content that both players wanting a light challenge and players wanting a strong challenge will find acceptable.

All a game developer can do is offer players a variety of content with different challenge levels, and leave them to do the parts of it they are happy with.

Those that want to move up to the next challenge level will do so, those that don't, won't. No assistance system will ever change that fact, all it could do is shift where that line is.

The as long as the content has a gradual increase in difficulty, the only thing stopping people from raiding is finding a guild that raids at a time that suits them.

consultant

Not sure what you are talking about this particular idea is not hand holding. Just non lethal raid mechanics to mobs.

Why would it not work?. One thing that could get you raid ready is Timed challenged dungeouns. Cause since competing against other players every thing is down to the wire.. But in WoW those challenge dungeouns are harder than raids so even less people do them.

You make a lot of statements that are redundant that sound kind of related to the topic but are not. Like

You can't make a piece of content that both players wanting a light challenge and players wanting a strong challenge will find acceptable

So you cannot make the content both easy and hard at the same time?? Is that right??
Well you are right. But seeing as I am talking about non leathal raid mechanics not anythign hard then not point in making comparison. Not to sure were the hard part in that is.

Not sure were you got the idea that I was tryintgto make a dungeound easy ads hard at the same time.
Just trying to say that dungeouns could be used as a tool to get people ready for raids. All it would take is the non lethal raid mechanics and a tracker that told you how many times you avoided damage mechanics.

Not sure what is hard about that.

Another thing you said is

I've been trying to say, payers play up until they reach the challenge they want, and that is where they stop

Well been making all this posts under the premise normal non-competative raiding is not a challenge just need to learn how.

You would agree that normal raiding with like 3 or 4 wipes is pretty much for every body right? if they want to and have the time. Thing is I do not think people know how easy raiding is just matter of putting forth a little effort.

Normal non-competative raiding is moderate skill at best so do not were the hard part in that is.
Just to be clear timed and dps competitions against other players now that pretty challenging. But not what I am talking about.

Ravudha

consultant wrote: »

Not sure were you got the idea that I was tryintgto make a dungeound easy ads hard at the same time.

I think the point is while your mentor mechanics can help one group of players, there is another group/type of players who want dungeons to be hard and don't want hand-holding mechanics that make them easier.

So, basically, the mentoring program doesn't accommodate all players who want to do dungeons (people who want dungeons to be easier and other people who want them to be hard). That's kind of why I assumed it would be an option, like a dungeon mode players could choose.

EDIT: after reading @Wandering Mist post below - I should've specified: when I say hand-holding, I mean things like the tracker that gives you extra information.

Wandering Mist

consultant wrote: »

Not sure what you are talking about this particular idea is not hand holding. Just non lethal raid mechanics to mobs.

Why would it not work?. One thing that could get you raid ready is Timed challenged dungeouns. Cause since competing against other players every thing is down to the wire.. But in WoW those challenge dungeouns are harder than raids so even less people do them.

I'm going to go back to your OP on this where you gave some examples of what you'd like to see in dungeons:

As far as dungeouns are concerned simple non lethal raid mechinics could be added. Things like slime puddles that slow you. Vents that pour out venemous gas but do not kill you. Could even have little power ups like mushrooms that heal a little bit. Even something as simple as a rock that you cannot walk over but small enough to jump over. Just little things that you put in the environment to make people pay attention. The opposite of this is going through the entire dungeoun with nothing of interest but the mobs and the bosses.

First off, a lot of mmorpgs have these sorts of mechanics in their levelling dungeons already and they don't make people better raiders at end-game.Second, when it comes to mechanics like this they have to be implemented smartly. For example, slime puddles that slow you are only effective if there are other mechanics that encourage you to move. If you can stand in the slime puddles with no consequence then what's the point in having the mechanic in the first place. The same goes for rocks that you have to jump over. If the fight doesn't force you to move, these rocks are meaningless.

The same thing applies to vents that pour out venemous gas that damages you. While levelling up depending on the gear and levels of the players, you could ignore that damage. If players can ignore or outheal the damage then chances are they won't learn to avoid it.

Do fewer people do timed challenge dungeons because they are harder than raids or just because they don't like timed challenge runs? I can only speak for myself here but I really don't like rushing through dungeons which is why I never went very high with M+ dungeons in WoW.

Plateau

I think we can all agree that there should be multiple levels of difficulty to raiding.

And I think we can all agree that games should offer challenges in a straightforward, self-teaching way. The environment, leveling experience, beginner dungeons, and easy-mode raids should all be designed to teach players how to beat the content they are currently doing. I'm pretty sure that's a pillar of good game design in every genre.

And only once you reach and willingly opt into hard-core content should there be any difficult puzzles to figure out.

All of this is basically standard in themepark, PvE-focused MMOs. I hope y'all aren't actually trying to debate on those points. By the way, LFR is exactly what you're asking for @consultant. It's easy-mode raids, designed to get more people into raiding and show them the basic mechanics (and story) with minimal other commitments or difficulty. FFXIV also has this in the form of Normal trials/raids and Alliance (24-man) raids, which are semi-hard, but extremely forgiving (newbies might die, but deaths usually don't cause a wipe).

The only thing players might need that does not already exist in MMOs is a way to bridge the gap between zero-communication dungeons and raids that require teamwork/co-operation. Typically that bridge is provided by community-made guides, which teach everyone the best strategies ahead of time. So players just have to learn their role/job and find other people who have read the same guide and are on the same page. In effect, the guide acts as a leader and tells everyone what to do, so that players don't have to coordinate and develop teamwork.

Players who are actually interested in teamwork and communication will probably have to find a static raid group to befriend and commit to (which is difficult on it's own). Or they have to find a PUG with a good mentor/teacher.

If you think MMOs need to provide more help to get more people to try raiding, then this is the only area they could improve on: connecting players with other like-minded players, and teaching them how to communicate. Or telling them upfront that they should just look up and follow a guide.

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