Challenges with the crafting ecosystem

Crafting has often been an irrelevant system from a progression POV in many MMO:s. It has often also been boring. This is a shame since a great MMO need a great crafting system. A system where crafted items can rival random drops and quest rewards from around the game.

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The first challenge for a healthy crafting ecosystem is to make people actually bother with it. For people to care, crafting needs to be relevant during all stages of the game. Random quest rewards and drops should not outclass almost all crafted items, weather it is during early, mid or endgame.

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The second challenge is for crafters to have access to a steady flow of supplies that are price competitive. For this there needs to be a lot of supply and demand. The first point cowers demand but supply is a bit trickier. For people to bother with gathering and refining there needs to be enough incentive for people to pick these professions and actually spend time gathering and refining stuff during all stages of the game.

Good incentives could be unique quests that are designed for refiners/gatherers or competitive gold/xp rewards from farming the materials needed by the crafters. The first point makes gold farming by gathering competitive if it is done right.

Another interesting incentive is one IS has already denied but could use more thought. Gathering professions and refining could give small or fun buffs to players. For example, a woodcutter would become a lot stronger than a herbalist. This could mean that the woodcutter gets a small strength buff. These buffs would make every single player interested in picking at least one profession which is great for the health of the ecosystem.

Alternatively, some professions could give small fun abilities. For example, the ability for a herbalist to transform into a cactus or “The amount of times you had to squat down to pick up herbs has given you the ability to jump high once every 5 minutes”

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One interesting thing is where gathered materials comes from. Instead of a dragon or monster randomly carrying equipment certain bosses could drop specific farming materials. For example, killing “Butter Dragon” could make him drop “Tooth of Butter Dragon” or be skinned for “Scale of Butter Dragon” which in turn could be used to craft great end-game gear by dedicated crafters. This would make many players seek out crafters to work with their gathered materials.

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Crafting progression is also something that is half done in many games. There should be different rarities or quality to fishing rods, mining picks, skinning knives etc. For example, “Tooth of Butter Dragon” could be used to create a high quality skinning knife that in turn opens up new rare and exciting skinning possibilities.

There could also be some for of crafting guild or NPC-hub with reputation tied to it. Higher reputation would unlock new recipes, rewards and cosmetics.

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But the most important factor by far is that many, many people decide to join in the ecosystem. We need tons of crafters, refiners and gatherers for the system to be fun and healthy. And the only way to get many players is to make it relevant and fun. Do not put this on second priority. It is vital for the game.

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Comments

Ventharien

The problem is most mini games associated with crafting that i've seen are either rng based, slot machine, combo chances, etc. or simple click when the marker hits the point on the bar, which anyone with healthy hands and eyes can do. So there isn't a skill so much as "i'm willing to do more mind numbing monotony" Especially when we want a thriving economy, while also not having everyone be able to do everything, gathering can't be something that's fun and engaging at first, then burdensome and annoying when the rest of the server needs people pumping resources into the market.

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

I have to agree with @ferryman .
I myself will aim to be a gatherer/crafter first and a pve raider second.
Mini games would be interesting in gathering at the beginning, but they will make you angry after mining the 500th resource.

I personally wouldn't use mini-games for gathering. To me, you can place enough challenge here with mob placement, or even with material node placement (having a node spawn point that isn't immediately obvious how to access, or that requires some effort to get to in some form).

I mean, they "could" add mini-games to gathering, but to me, since gathering takes place out in the world, there are already other things they can do out there to make it interesting - whereas crafting takes place at a crafting station, which is likely in your house, where they are unable to add the same kind of mechanics to add interest.

As I said earlier, the big problem with the mini-game in EQ2 was it's repetitiveness. I've "completed" that mini-game probably close to 20,000 times (no kidding), and I only have 3 crafting classes that were maxed when I played - out of 9 that some people had.

So yes, it could easily become tedious if not implemented well.

To me, there are two things I'd like to see to remove tedium like this. The first is to have different mini-games for different item types. This is easier said than done, but I consider it worth it.

The second is to make it so that the mini-game isn't needed every time you make a single item. For intermediaries and consumables, they could allow players to prepare batches of ingredients and then make a large number of the desired item, requiring only one instance of the mini-game for many of the item being made.

For equipable items, they could make it so that you only need to play the mini-game when you are making an item that uses a group or raid boss dropped material in the item. This would mean that you only need to play the game when you are making an item that is to be used, and any items you make to grind out a few levels (which will likely be a thing still), are not subject to it.

To me, the real challenge in all of this is coming up with enough suitable mini-game varieties that don't feel too contrived.

Blink2

I feel that challenging mini-games if implemented on extremely high-end gear crafting or when breaking through to a tier of crafting is a way to skill check the crafting community to give the title master craftsmen some real prestige that isn't just obtained through a time sink.

Ventharien

I think Mini Games translate better to crafting, than to gathering. You craft far less than you end up gathering, so even repetitive ones are easier to tolerate. Maybe a better system would be to add a mini game randomly to nodes that if completed successfully gives you either a rarer resource, think gems in an ore vein, or a bonus lump of the same material. That wasy it could break the monotony of mass gathering, instead of adding another layer of it.

Damokles

Ventharien wrote: »

I think Mini Games translate better to crafting, than to gathering. You craft far less than you end up gathering, so even repetitive ones are easier to tolerate. Maybe a better system would be to add a mini game randomly to nodes that if completed successfully gives you either a rarer resource, think gems in an ore vein, or a bonus lump of the same material. That wasy it could break the monotony of mass gathering, instead of adding another layer of it.

I have to agree that a mini game would be better for crafting.
They could even increase the depth of the mini game with the rarity of the crafted item.
Common - no mini game
Uncommon - 5-10sec mini game
Rare - multiple different short mini games
Epic - multiple different mini games of varying difficulty
Legendary - tons of mini games for each little step, with extremely demanding difficulty

mcstackerson

Damokles wrote: »

Ventharien wrote: »

I think Mini Games translate better to crafting, than to gathering. You craft far less than you end up gathering, so even repetitive ones are easier to tolerate. Maybe a better system would be to add a mini game randomly to nodes that if completed successfully gives you either a rarer resource, think gems in an ore vein, or a bonus lump of the same material. That wasy it could break the monotony of mass gathering, instead of adding another layer of it.

I have to agree that a mini game would be better for crafting.
They could even increase the depth of the mini game with the rarity of the crafted item.
Common - no mini game
Uncommon - 5-10sec mini game
Rare - multiple different short mini games
Epic - multiple different mini games of varying difficulty
Legendary - tons of mini games for each little step, with extremely demanding difficulty

Would crafters really like that though? After everything you went through to get the materials, to have it all come down to mini-games?

Crafting/gathering is usually a more passive form of gameplay where combat is more active. I don't know if giving every aspect of the game an active component would be a good thing.

I'm fine with there being an active component in some professions where they can create something that fits but don't think every craft needs to require some kind of mechanical skill.

Would exploring be more fun if we made the player do a mini game to walk around? Maybe if they fail they could trip or stub their toe.

Caeryl

mcstackerson wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Ventharien wrote: »

I think Mini Games translate better to crafting, than to gathering. You craft far less than you end up gathering, so even repetitive ones are easier to tolerate. Maybe a better system would be to add a mini game randomly to nodes that if completed successfully gives you either a rarer resource, think gems in an ore vein, or a bonus lump of the same material. That wasy it could break the monotony of mass gathering, instead of adding another layer of it.

I have to agree that a mini game would be better for crafting.
They could even increase the depth of the mini game with the rarity of the crafted item.
Common - no mini game
Uncommon - 5-10sec mini game
Rare - multiple different short mini games
Epic - multiple different mini games of varying difficulty
Legendary - tons of mini games for each little step, with extremely demanding difficulty

Would crafters really like that though? After everything you went through to get the materials, to have it all come down to mini-games?

Crafting/gathering is usually a more passive form of gameplay where combat is more active. I don't know if giving every aspect of the game an active component would be a good thing.

I'm fine with there being an active component in some professions where they can create something that fits but don't think every craft needs to require some kind of mechanical skill.

Would exploring be more fun if we made the player do a mini game to walk around? Maybe if they fail they could trip or stub their toe.

Crafting should not be a passive activity, is the entire point.

I’m most games, there’s no difference between the process to craft an iron dagger and the process to craft a god-blessed, blood-quenched silver sword. You get the materials, hit the craft button a few times and there you go.

We want there to be some tangible skill requirement for crafting the best gear. If there isn’t, then crafting is nothing but a time sink, with no skill expression at all.

Noaani

Damokles wrote: »

Ventharien wrote: »

I think Mini Games translate better to crafting, than to gathering. You craft far less than you end up gathering, so even repetitive ones are easier to tolerate. Maybe a better system would be to add a mini game randomly to nodes that if completed successfully gives you either a rarer resource, think gems in an ore vein, or a bonus lump of the same material. That wasy it could break the monotony of mass gathering, instead of adding another layer of it.

I have to agree that a mini game would be better for crafting.
They could even increase the depth of the mini game with the rarity of the crafted item.
Common - no mini game
Uncommon - 5-10sec mini game
Rare - multiple different short mini games
Epic - multiple different mini games of varying difficulty
Legendary - tons of mini games for each little step, with extremely demanding difficulty

This works for me.

ataulfos

And why dont get real reference from irl for make stuff like idk maybe for craft an irom sword u have to hit it with ur hammer while is hot and see how better the wep is so that way u add skills for craft and for lumber u could have steps loke chop down the tree then get it by pieces and the better ppl would get a lot of materials by expertise and get the time doing this mini games lesser by skill so ppl wpuld actualy put some effort on them for better rewards and to have more time for other stuffs lile other aspects of the game lile sell them or share with other ppl or maybe make crafting a cominity thing where u could craft 100 of arrow heads and other guy bring other stuffs and thinga like that lile true medieval crafstation for less time working and couls add aspects of the classes too so idk maybe sumonners could use invocations help or idk make something new, but fun still but i know all new functions require some time developing them so maybe for further stages of the game

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