Ball groups and other undesirable things

Hey guys. I'm an mmo vet. Been playing them for 20+ years. Not sure if its ever been mentioned since I'm new here but just wanted to talk a little about ball groups.

Ball groups have been a pvp tactic in several mmos. In the mmos that they are prevalent in they're the meta really. Short version of what a ball group is is a group of anywhere from 8ish to 24, or even more, players that stay stacked up in a tight knit ball and maneuver around the pvp battlefield in that formation at all times.

The purpose is efficiency and taking advantage of aoe mechanics. The average ball group of say 16 players would be made up of maybe 10 aoe damage dealers, and 6 healers. Give or take a support class or two of some sort, varies based on the game in question.

In pvp the ball group runs around in sync at all times. The dps classes spam their aoe dps. The healers spam their aoe heals. And that's about it. A leader calls the shots and directs where this blob of players moves on the battlefield and what poor enemy player groups it crashes into.

The main experience I've had with it was in in ESO where it was really bad. There were even bot groups doing it. Like one guy multiboxing controlling 12+ different accounts. Not nearly as effective as 12 individual players in a ball group, but still something you had to avoid. I believe ball groups were an issue in Guild Wars 2 also, as well as other games. But its been a long time, I don't recall all the times I've seen it. ESO is just the most fresh on my mind.

So I'm just writing this hoping I really didn't need to write it at all. That maybe the devs already done thought about it and came up with a solution years ago. But if not, just to bring some attention to it.

Yes we want aoe's. They're very useful for taking on enemies when you're outnumbered. Yes we want the better led, the more organized and efficient groups of players (which in principle is what a ball group is, I don't deny that) to do better generally in pvp. But no, I think I speak for many, hopefully most, no we don't want the ball group meta. Where thats just it, thats what ya do. Everyone blob up, get your skills spamming and /follow on the leader.

There are many ways for a dev to make it not the meta. I'm not going to go into all the ways. I just hope the devs take it into consideration when they really start creating/balancing pvp mechanics.

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Jamation

So I've never actually seen a "ball group" in person as I haven't done a lot of PvP myself, but I'm just wondering if there were ball groups in AoC where would they be effective anyways?

If they were a roaming band of flagged players that'd be one thing, but I doubt you'd need to even use a ball tactic if you're just running into a few players here and there out in the wild.

And if the tactic was being used in castle sieges wouldn't a small group of clumped up people be the perfect target for all of the castle siege weapons to knock them over/out?

Unless I'm missing a portion of PvP (which is most likely the case) I don't really get when people would want to use it? If it truly is boring, it doesn't sound like it'd be the most effective strategy in this game.

George_Black

Jamation wrote: »

So I've never actually seen a "ball group" in person as I haven't done a lot of PvP myself, but I'm just wondering if there were ball groups in AoC where would they be effective anyways?

If they were a roaming band of flagged players that'd be one thing, but I doubt you'd need to even use a ball tactic if you're just running into a few players here and there out in the wild.

And if the tactic was being used in castle sieges wouldn't a small group of clumped up people be the perfect target for all of the castle siege weapons to knock them over/out?

Unless I'm missing a portion of PvP (which is most likely the case) I don't really get when people would want to use it? If it truly is boring, it doesn't sound like it'd be the most effective strategy in this game.

The strength of the ball group is that it's members use only 1-2 AoE abilities without aiming.

The group members build (race, gear, class) only for the purpose of their 2 AoE. For example a DD will go full atk without any concern about survivabilty.
A tank will go full CC without concern about survivability.
A healer will go full healing without concern about survivability.

The ball group does not prioritize enemy targets to harm the enemy numbers. They just spam AoE, no matter if there are DD that take more dmg, tanks that take less dmg, healers that need to be killed first. They just keep healing, and keep dealing AoE dmg and CC.

The ball group just follows the leader from the breach, to the throne room, spamming AoE. They will reach the objective and you cant ignore them or avoid them.

Anything that you can use against a ball group, they can use against you (except for siege weapons).

If high Impact AoE abilities receive high cooldown, the ball group will be affected in two ways:

1) Since they cant spam 1-2 AoE, they will need to build for:
DDs will split resources to dmg, CC, survivability, mobility.
Tanks will split resources for defence, CC.
Healers will split resources to mana regen (no more "wholesale" healing), healing amount, survivability.
No more mindless actions, counting on some1 else to cover your exposed weaknesses since you put everything your character had into dealing dmg.

2)Ball groups will have to aim enemies and prioritize targets as opposed to following the leader, forming a ball.

Nobody else will be affected by high cooldowns on AoE.

If ball group leaders and other players think that they are so skilled I am sure that they can keep winning without AoE.

Okeydoke

@Jamation We don't know where they'd be effective, or if they'd be effective, or if they'll even be possible. We don't know and the devs probably dont know yet either. Most of the combat system is probably not in place. That's why I made my post, to hopefully put the issue on their radar as they design all these systems.

But just on the surface, you can imagine ball groups being effective in siege situations. And the caravan system, you can imagine both the defending group and the attacking group being forced to use ball grouping IF its the meta.

The difference between this game and the game I reference most, ESO, is that in ESO it was a persistent, ongoing 24/7 battlefield. So that's just ripe for ball groups. Many ball group players wouldn't even go out and pvp until their full group was there and they could move out in ball form. But once out there it was just ballin around until they were done pvping for the night. It was target rich.

Ashes won't have that same kind of 24/7 pre determined battlefield. Nevertheless, if ball groups are the most effective, efficient way to pvp, it will become the meta.

And to answer your question about the siege equipment busting up clustered players. Yeah that's how it should work. But some games it just doesn't, the ball is too powerful. Ball groups in ESO could eat a lot of siege fire before you'd even see their health bars start to move. They're all on top of each other, multiple people casting aoe heals and damage shields and whatever else mitigation abilities they have. The siege weapons in that game didn't have a high enough rate of fire and/or didn't do enough damage per hit. The operator also has to aim and hit the player or players and often misses. People in the sights of siege get a ground graphic cue that the little patch of land they're on is about to get hit by a ballista or what have you. And they have time to avoid it.

That said, there were of course instances where concentrated siege fire could drive off a ball group. Rarely did it ever kill or stop one though. They'd usually just back off and come in from a different angle.

Noaani

To me, that doesn't really answer the question of when a ball group would be used in Ashes.

You won't see them just roaming around the countryside, killing all in their way. You probably won't see them in dungeons, either.

Assuming they even work in Ashes, we may see them in instanced PvP and maybe sieges - though I doubt they would last long in sieges due both to the need for timing and tactics, and siege weapons. They may also show up in a guild vs guild situation, but likely only as a third party taking advantage of all the flagged players.

The issue with balls is mostly to do with lack of mechanics in other games. It is only natural that some people would think the issues of one game would move to another, but sometimes people think this without thinking what mechanics need to be in place (or need to be absent, in this case) in order for that issue to remain an issue in another game.

All up, even if balls are possible, and if they are as effective as they are in other games (which is unlikely), it will only really affect a small portion of the game.

Ventharien

Personally i have no problem with ball groups. Especially when you consider them by another title. A formation. It has its strengths and weaknesses, and is more effective in certain situations than others. As long as this doesn't become THE formation, i think it's fine. I see it being able to be used in more open terrain, on even footing. So excluding sieges, constricted dungeons or caverns, or possibly forests, depending on how thick they make them. As others have said, between collision, and current character abilities like the tank wall, they will have their counters. Which just makes pvp an interaction of play and counter play. Which is perfect.

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