The worst possible feature in this game is the corruption

I can tell now, the corruption feature is completely broken. Let say, and it is a common case, some player kills another who grief and ks the mobs. Now let see how that PK penalty will work. The player who is flagged have the choice to die, or to die multiple times. So in fact the player who griefs wins. I saw exactly the same feature in many games - L2 after GoD, L2 Classic, BDO and etc. In every game the result was death of OW PvP. Many players left cause they feel frustrated they cannot protect from griefers. And above all some players do intentional griefing. I call that feature the gank of the loser. And if this thing exists here, I will simply not play AOC, as I already played BDO - good looking, but terrible game.

If you want to reduce the ganking, this is not the way to do it. There are multiple different mechanisms, that will not be exploited so much.

One simple exploit - I want a boss, or mobs, or anything in the game for OW PvE. What I have to do is to let another player, or players to gank me, so to insult them, or to ks, or to grief. Then I will take what I want, as when they PK me, they lost the case.

One possible way to reduce the ganking is a similar karma system - so the PKer is flagged for 5-10 min, but he accumulates PKs. And he needs to clean them by doing things that brings him exp and ingame money, for free. So 1 - 3 PKs random - 1-3 hour grind. 4-6 PKs - random 2-6 hours grind. Also loss of fighting abilities/items if the character has/dies with 6PKs and more.

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

Now the question is, where is the reward, if after the PK you have to suicide with three or four times higher penalty and a chance to drop any carried/equipped items.

Here is a question for you - exactly how bad is that penalty?

How many players do you need to kill before you start taking a hit to your stats?
How many players do you need to kill before there is a chance you may drop an equipped item?
What is the percentage chance at this point that you could drop an item?
How many more kills do you need before that percentage chance to drop an item goes up?

Conversely.

What is the value of materials that a player can carry?
How does that value compare to the average value of items you have equipped?

You can't answer any of these questions.

Until you can answer every single one of these questions accurately, you can't make any assumptions as to how much of a penalty the corruption system will be.

What you can (and should) do though, is look at other systems in the game - specifically the bounty hunter system.

The bounty hunter system that is being introduced is completely reliant on there being at least some players in the game gaining corruption. If Intrepid are going to add an entire system to the game that seems to have it's own progression line within it, then they will want to ensure that the people opting to take this path will always have at least some people to hunt.

So, Intrepid will always want there to be a small number of people gaining corruption and being hunted because of it. They have an actual progression path reliant on that.

If you keep this in mind, and then have another look over those questions above, those questions should all of a sudden start to look like things Ashes could alter in order to make killing people for corruption either more or less viable - as they see fit.

What we now have is a situation where the developer wants to ensure some people will gain corruption, but not too many people, and that very developer has given itself levers in the game that it can manipulate in order to influence how likely a player is to attack another player.

mcstackerson

Wow you are toxic

Yes, corruption is a risk and the reward is usually going to be the resources they drop.

I agree with the suicide comment, it's a part of the system I think we have to figure out. I'd like it to be set up in a way where we still have a huge penalty/risk but you are still encouraged to play. As it is now, it seems like you should probably stop playing until you have cleared your corruption which, as you pointed out, encourages you to intentionally die.

The point of the system is to allow pvp but dissuade killing people who don't want to fight. In a lot of other systems, you get the penalty on attacking so you might as well kill. In ashes, you are free to start the engagement but allows the person being attacked to either respond in kind or run away. If someone wants to run, you are encouraged to let them be. This is also why the punishment is so severe and I think why people have a problem wrapping their heads around it(myself included). As I pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean they are free to farm mobs or take resources in the area.

Atama

Ikcen wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

By the way, decent MMOs, the ones that aren’t total crap, you don’t level by grinding. That’s not a game, that’s a chore.

Ah a solo PvE nolifer. Anyway you never played a MMO, as you cannot really play multiplayer in any game. The games are fun. Strongly suggest you to try Albion. You will hate it, but as chore it will make you suffer like no other game

I’ve been playing MMOs for more than 20 years (my first was EQ in ‘99). And MUDs before then. I have lots of experience. I remember the days when the only way to advance was camping mob spawns in a group. Things have changed a lot since then. I’m glad I don’t have to play like I did in my 20s; I can’t devote that kind of time to a game anymore.

Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

Well next time you play, do a PK, and write here if it is so terribly bad like it seems.

You're the only one that thinks it is bad.

And you seem to think an MMO only needs a login server, game server and backup server to run, with no thought as to allocation of resources beyond that - so...

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grisu

It's that time of the year again isn't it?

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mcstackerson

Yes, we need to play with the system to see how it feels.

You can't really know if it would be worth it or not. There could be items, especially if they have been farming a lot, that are worth the risk to your gear. I'm pretty sure resources from world bosses would be worth the risk. Also, if you plan on pvping and know you might go corrupted, it might be smart to role around in cheaper gear that isn't as hard for you to replace.

This system is pretty easy to change at any point in development. What feature do you think is too late to change?

Atama

I guess it’s worth pointing out that it might fail. We are forecasting a system that doesn’t exist yet. It seems okay on paper and seems to do what it intends to do; allow free-for-all PvP but not without consequences. Which should curb ganking and griefing but still add that extra edge of danger for players. Yet until we actually see it in play in this game when everything is live, we don’t really know how good it will be.

The game is trying to do it all. If you’re out fighting monsters or gathering resources or exploring you aren’t safe from other players. You can be attacked and inevitably you will be. You then have two choices; fight back or don’t fight back. If you fight back and lose, you will drop some resources (not gear; normal PvP results in no loss of equipment, remember that). But you will only drop half of what you dropped if you didn’t fight back. If you win, bonus, you get to take some resources from the person who attacked you. Most people will probably try to fight back even if they are overmatched because there are incentives to do so.

If you don’t fight back, you can try to run away and survive, and you lose nothing (except possibly time since you are put off-track from whatever you were doing). Or if you can’t get away, or don’t try to, you die. Again you drop resources, twice as many as you would if you didn’t fight back. But you also have the satisfaction of knowing the person who attacked you suffered corruption, if that kind of thing matters to you.

The game is trying to enable non-consensual PvP while discouraging it. It won’t be a carebear world but it won’t be a griefer paradise either. It’s walking a tightrope between the two things. I hope it succeeds but again, we won’t know how well until we’re really playing the final game.

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mcstackerson

Ikcen wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Yes, we need to play with the system to see how it feels.

You can't really know if it would be worth it or not. There could be items, especially if they have been farming a lot, that are worth the risk to your gear. I'm pretty sure resources from world bosses would be worth the risk. Also, if you plan on pvping and know you might go corrupted, it might be smart to role around in cheaper gear that isn't as hard for you to replace.

This system is pretty easy to change at any point in development. What feature do you think is too late to change?

Well, not so easy as it looks. Also like I said L2 after GoD had very similar PK system, and it killed the OW PvP there, also it was heavily abused.

The PK system of L2 after GoD - you got karma /corruption/ when you PK, every PK increased the corruption score. You stayed flagged as long as you had karma. Every player slain in the PvP while you had karma was another PK. There were two ways to clean it - faster - suicide, even multiple times, with increased loss of experience and chance to drop your gear after 4th PK I think. Or painful and risky grind of mobs. Risky, because every player could attack your character and even PK it without any penalty. Painful cause you had to grind days or even weeks without any loot and experience.

Sounds familiar, isn't it?

Yes, we all know that the corruption system is based of L2's system. It was Steven's favorite MMO. This is common knowledge.

No, it really is as easy as it looks. Please explain to me who it's not easy to adjust values and penalties? It's not hard to alter the intensity of an effect or remove it altogether. Even if you had to develop a completely new mechanic, we are talking about something that goes off other in-game mechanics (i.e. death, pk, looting) and is just a transformation of those systems in certain instances.

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Jamation

At first I thought it was annoying that Ikcen just wants everyone to agree with them and won't listen to anything anyone is saying. But this train wreck is just too entertaining to stop reading

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Noaani

Ikcen wrote: »

Sad, he chose a wrong period of L2.

Seems to me that he made a good choice.

The idea of the system is to discourage players killing each other for no reason - and your issue with it seems to be that it would stop you killing players for no reason.

It's quite obvious that Ashes is not the game you want it to be.

Caeryl

You claim there’s nothing wrong with a player that gets all their joy from ganking and PK’ing, not for any benefit it brings them, just because they like killing other players.

That is explicitly what Intrepid does not want. Of course the penalties for being a murder hobo will be steep, because they don’t want that kind of behavior to be prevalent in Ashes.

They want PvP to center around meaningful content. They want people to fight over dungeons, they want people to fight for influence, they want people to fight for resources.

What they don’t want is MurderStabMan going around ganking players because it amuses him.

Your initial premise is based off entitlement and a misunderstanding of how resources will work in Ashes (you can exhaust an area of its resources, including the animal populations). You and the person “invading” or “trolling” or whatever you call it, both have the same risks and rewards to fighting.

One kill will not destroy your character’s stats. Repeatedly killing players who don’t fight back is what corruption is for. It will punish repeat offenders.

If you’re scared of it because you might kill a player contesting a spot you want every once in a while, either you don’t have any idea of how it works, or you actually intend to PK “for fun” instead of for a purpose.

Jamation

Ikcen wrote: »

The conversation is hard when some of the guys act like toddlers.

Yeah I agree. It's hard to talk to a person when they call everyone who doesn't agree with them a noob.

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