Important Feedback for Dev Team.

Hey, this Feedback is intended for Ashes of Creation Creative Director named: Steven Sharif at Intrepid Studios. Based on my knowledge and experience while playing mmorpg's for past 17 years, i would like share and suggest my opinions, perspectives based on analysis off entire Ashes of Creation Hybrid Action Combat System. Entire System from my perspective is outdated, not fluent in it's animations, very slow and clunky. I would suggest that an deep dive into Black Desert Online's Combat System is needed for entire Creative,Content,Animation-VFX teams too make and take advantage off inspiration from other successful mmorpg's like Black Desert Online and many others that did same thing Inspired & Created the best content on others successful projects-games.
PS: “The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.” Book of Ecclesiasticus by King Solomon.

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Wandering Mist

How can you even think to provide relevant feedback on a combat system that a) you haven't used yourself, and b) hasn't been fully implemented yet? So far we've only been shown maybe a quarter of the combat system. Wait until it's all there before criticising it.

@Tsukasa I'd say the reaction the regulars on here is perfectly reasonable when you have some newcomer appearing out of nowhere with "feedback" when they clearly haven't done any research at all.

@Ryufu the thing about providing feedback at this early stage is that we don't know what the developers are still working on and what is considered finished. Combat animations are a perfect example. I severely doubt that the animations we've seen so far are the finished product. So us saying that the animations are rubbish holds very little value since these are likely going to change and improve anyway later down the line.

Atama

Again, @Tsukasa wants to turn the game into BDO and is upset that it won't happen. There's another person who shares that desire, and demonizes the community for resisting the idea. No surprises here.

Comandantetrick

I hope i have a option t play tab target, i hate action , if not, good luck to console generation gamers !

Damokles

@Tsukasa
The thing with your entry in the forums was that you went in swinging.
You tried to force everyones opinion about topics and always talked about how they should implement obscure game mechanics from other unsuccesfull games aka soul-bonding/marriage mechanics.
Most of these mechanics and the examples you provided would be utterly busted in Ashes.

Yes, i too like the BDO combat. But Ashes is hope-/thankfully not the utter clusterfuck that is BDO.
IF i had to whish for a good action combat, then i would go for Warframe.

unknown

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Damokles

Tsukasa wrote: »

I'm only asking for a combat where players can react back, and not helplessly stand there and take full damage.

BDO combat has a lot of creative ideas that I want Intrepid to look it up thoroughly to help them create the right tab target system for their hybrid.

Imagine a game where you are vulnerable 24/7 to PvP with a combat you can't react to nor enjoy. What's wrong with you people...
Based on Steven Discord messages and livestreams. They do NOT have clear vision on how their Hybrid combat would be implemented. Even considered going full tab target.

Alpha 1 is tab target. If they are working on tab target then they are also indirectly working on the hybrid. Think about it like this. What we've seen was a classic tab target. These skills better be applicable with the hybrid or else it's waste of money!

The Tamer in BDO has a 11sec stunlock....
The Striker has a 5-6sec stunlock....
They already said that they dont like hard cc like stuns in tab targetting and want to keep them to a minimum.

Wandering Mist

Tsukasa wrote: »

I'm only asking for a combat where players can react back, and not helplessly stand there and take full damage.

BDO combat has a lot of creative ideas that I want Intrepid to look it up thoroughly to help them create the right tab target system for their hybrid.

Imagine a game where you are vulnerable 24/7 to PvP with a combat you can't react to nor enjoy. What's wrong with you people...
Based on Steven Discord messages and livestreams. They do NOT have clear vision on how their Hybrid combat would be implemented. Even considered going full tab target.

Alpha 1 is tab target. If they are working on tab target then they are also indirectly working on the hybrid. Think about it like this. What we've seen was a classic tab target. These skills better be applicable with the hybrid or else it's waste of money!

I haven't played a ton of BDO but from what I've seen and experienced the combat system is mostly fluff. Visually stunning, for sure, but not much substance behind it.

Noaani

Tsukasa wrote: »

Imagine a game where you are vulnerable 24/7 to PvP with a combat you can't react to nor enjoy. What's wrong with you people...

I've never played a game that doesn't have some form of reactive defenses.

This is not something that is mutually exclusive with tab target combat - you can have both and indeed most tab target MMO's do.

If what you are arguing for is the ability to react to PvP, then talk about that, not about BDO or action combat - as these things are not inherently connected.

Edit to add; you come across as someone that has heard about parts of tab target combat systems, but never really played one - and absolutely never played one in depth. You have taken your partial understanding of what such games involve, and assumed that is all there is to them. To make things worse than that, you refuse to listen when people with more first hand experience of them point out to you where you are wrong, meaning your understanding of them will never grow.

This is why you are so often wrong when talking about tab target games.

Atama

LotRO is a classic tab target MMO but the combat system is heavily built around reactive defenses. That’s not rare nor restricted to action combat.

Strabun

Ryufu wrote: »

I think it is great to see posts like this, because it shows they care about the game. The answer being "its just alpha" to everything isn't helpful and honestly annoying. Bringing up individual concerns are good because it allows the developers to see what is important to their audience.

Also, something like combat is the entire base of the game. If it isn't improved upon DURING the alpha and beta stages then it will just become even more difficult to change later. So, reiterating specific things like this is good for the game.

You better read he's post and mine multiple times and maybe after read it couple of time maybe than you would understand that other mmo's like Infinite Ascension after they recived a lot of feedback from community they had listen to their concerns regarding tab-target shity sistem and switched to free action combat sistem and revamped entire animations and even changed it's name from Ascend infinite Realm to Elyon. So stop with toxic behavior and let people share their opinions based on what they like, see, test, research, experience. An toxic behavior makes the game as toxic as players are. Indeed maybe developers would reconsider their options but if a lot of effort, money, time has been spent on an sistem named: Hybrid Action Combat System when if fact is clearly tab targeting outdated sistem back from wow and lineage 2 era. Maybe developers will change everything their entire work but i do not belive this would happen as this project was a kick starter which is much difficult to gather money than other studios that are in branch for many years and got enough money to spent on an revamp on it's entire game core. Now you got the point ? When it would be released it will be indeed more polished in animations but it would be very difficult to remake entire game core combat sistem. So dosen't matter how much to tweak it because it's base is same outdated that people are sick of it. Maybe new players that just started playing mmo's are welcome it.

Noaani

strabun wrote: »

Ryufu wrote: »

I think it is great to see posts like this, because it shows they care about the game. The answer being "its just alpha" to everything isn't helpful and honestly annoying. Bringing up individual concerns are good because it allows the developers to see what is important to their audience.

Also, something like combat is the entire base of the game. If it isn't improved upon DURING the alpha and beta stages then it will just become even more difficult to change later. So, reiterating specific things like this is good for the game.

You better read he's post and mine multiple times and maybe after read it couple of time maybe than you would understand that other mmo's like Infinite Ascension after they recived a lot of feedback from community they had listen to their concerns regarding tab-target shity sistem and switched to free action combat sistem and revamped entire animations and even changed it's name from Ascend infinite Realm to Elyon. So stop with toxic behavior and let people share their opinions based on what they like, see, test, research, experience. An toxic behavior makes the game as toxic as players are. Indeed maybe developers would reconsider their options but if a lot of effort, money, time has been spent on an sistem named: Hybrid Action Combat System when if fact is clearly tab targeting outdated sistem back from wow and lineage 2 era. Maybe developers will change everything their entire work but i do not belive this would happen as this project was a kick starter which is much difficult to gather money than other studios that are in branch for many years and got enough money to spent on an revamp on it's entire game core. Now you got the point ? When it would be released it will be indeed more polished in animations but it would be very difficult to remake entire game core combat sistem. So dosen't matter how much to tweak it because it's base is same outdated that people are sick of it. Maybe new players that just started playing mmo's are welcome it.

Here's the problem with developers listening to players.

You say they should ditch the tab target system.

What if I say they should ditch the action combat system.

We are both players, which one of us should Intrepid listen to?

It is at this point where we would each need to back up our stance on the matter, for whichI would simply point out that the biggest MMO of all time - which is still the biggest MMO out there - is exclusively tab target.

You can show any examples of action combat MMO's that you want, but until you can show one that has the longevity of WoW, you have nothing to back your point up with.

So instead of saying Intrepid should listen to the community, which obviously means listening to all the community - not just you - you should leave Intrepid to develop their game and then have your say on it when they are happy with it enough to let us actually play it.

Strabun

There is no point in debate which is better or which is bad because both of them got isues. The point is how many people want something new creative and innovative on mmo's and how many people want to play like they did back in 2004 when game evolution is based not on copy pasted the past but creating something new and original that is what an mmo should look like and be like. Something that has never been created before is that creativity and innovation stands for. Inspiration from other sources and that modify the base info in such way that appears to be something new and original that is not the case. That's why mmo gender is dead and people is waything for something new for many years because they are sick of players like you that point that WoW is best mmo ever made yeah probaly it is most popular but that dosen't mean is best it's it's gender. There are many other mmo's that you didn't even heard about them that trive for many years with big community and are not considerated best mmo's because they didn't had blizard money to invest in publicity.

Strabun

And based on: Statista Research Department, Dec 2, 2016 WoW is going to die eventualy (i hope so) https://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/

ZephronRedblade

Translation:
[Scene 1]
Wife comes home, hangs her coat up.
Walks over to the couch.
*Eyes widen*
He's playing Ashes of Creation!
Sticking his sword into Sorrow's Hunger (the ugly one).

[Scene 2]
He snaps his fingers.
Wife crawls over.
He points to a hole in the Underrealm.
Wife gets down, picks up keyboard, and plays too.

[Scene 3]
Doorbell rings.
A large group of friends comes in consisting of every facet of type of individual.
They SEE EVERYTHING.
One guy took pictures with his phone.

Noaani

strabun wrote: »

The point is how many people want something new creative and innovative on mmo's

If this is what you are asking for, explain this point you made in the OP of this thread.

strabun wrote: »

I would suggest that an deep dive into Black Desert Online's Combat System is needed

You are not asking for new and unique, you are asking for a game that is similar to teh game you like.

If that is not your intent, you should perhaps rethink your entire posting stance.

It is worth pointing out as well, you may have 17 years "experience" playing MMO's, but the development team at Intrepid have a combined total of several centuraries of development experience of MMO's. One year of development experience is worth 10 years of player experience - so you do the math there.

You wouldn't go up to General Motors and tell them that you have 17 years experience driving cars, and so they should listen to you because you know how they should design their next car - so why do you think it is ok to do that with a game development company with massive amounts of individual experience?

strabun wrote: »

And based on: Statista Research Department, Dec 2, 2016 WoW is going to die eventualy (i hope so) https://www.statista.com/statistics/276601/number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-by-quarter/

Of course it will, everything eventually dies.

However, there isn't a game in development now that wouldn't consider attaining the success WoW had to be beyond their wildest dreams.

Magic Man

I will have to agree with Noanni here 😐There are better ways to provide feedback on something you've seen.

As for BDO combat, I think it is decent and certainly impactful. Tho I personally wouldn't take it as the golden standard for MMO combat as it appears to be the sentiment for many people.

What we've tested in Apocalypse was true action combat. Since it was a BR and had low time-to-kill many people couldn't experience it fully. I replied to someone before about this so here's my copy pasta response to your concerns about the combat:

Steven Sharif (CEO/Creative Director) has said, in Ashes, action are all the abilities that do not require a target to be utilized, while tab abilities are those that do. Therefore, according to his definition, Guild Wars 2, as well as most other MMORPGs technically have 'hybrid combat'. What they want to do is to take it further and add things like actual aim-able abilities - what they call ''true action combat'', co-existing with tab targeting. Players will be able to choose up to 75% of either tab or action abilities.

In terms of balance, hard CCs are planned to be action (aimed, placeable AoEs and every ability that does not require a target) while soft CCs will be tab targeting. Furthermore, tab abilities will deal less damage and will be RNG based (since, that's what tab target is: sort of like auto-aim missiles that hit or miss, based on a mathematical formula i.e. math rules of accuracy vs evasion) while action abilities, you will need to actually land, hence the justification for more damage.

Now if this does not work or/and proves to be not fun, they will go with tab targeting with AoEs (like what we've watched in the Alpha 1 Early Preview). Tho, I and many other people hope that it won't come to that and devs will actually nail it and make the combat complex, engaging and fun, which is extremely important for a dynamic PvX oriented game like Ashes. So we are all waiting patiently for them to show us progress on the hybrid combat and how it shapes, along with other key features of the game 🙂

Wandering Mist

You know, it would help if the OP provided some more detail and context as to why they think BDO combat is so good.

Marzzo

strabun wrote: »

Hey, this Feedback is intended for Ashes of Creation Creative Director named: Steven Sharif at Intrepid Studios. Based on my knowledge and experience while playing mmorpg's for past 17 years, i would like share and suggest my opinions, perspectives based on analysis off entire Ashes of Creation Hybrid Action Combat System. Entire System from my perspective is outdated, not fluent in it's animations, very slow and clunky. I would suggest that an deep dive into Black Desert Online's Combat System is needed for entire Creative,Content,Animation-VFX teams too make and take advantage off inspiration from other successful mmorpg's like Black Desert Online and many others that did same thing Inspired & Created the best content on others successful projects-games.
PS: “The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.” Book of Ecclesiasticus by King Solomon.

In my opinion, black desert online has one of the most horrible and disgusting combat systems I have ever seen.

Jahlon

strabun wrote: »

Hey, this Feedback is intended for Ashes of Creation Creative Director named: Steven Sharif at Intrepid Studios. Based on my knowledge and experience while playing mmorpg's for past 17 years, i would like share and suggest my opinions, perspectives based on analysis off entire Ashes of Creation Hybrid Action Combat System. Entire System from my perspective is outdated, not fluent in it's animations, very slow and clunky. I would suggest that an deep dive into Black Desert Online's Combat System is needed for entire Creative,Content,Animation-VFX teams too make and take advantage off inspiration from other successful mmorpg's like Black Desert Online and many others that did same thing Inspired & Created the best content on others successful projects-games.
PS: “The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.” Book of Ecclesiasticus by King Solomon.

Based on my over 25 years of Internet Experience and 30 years of typing experience, I feel it is my obligation to point out to you the Enter Key (sometimes referred to a Return Key) that happens to reside to the far right of your home row. By pressing this key inbetween ideas, you can eliminate the wall of text that you so unceremoniously presented.

With that said, if you had 17 years of experience in playing MMORPGs you would know that the way games develop are Concept > Tech Testing (also called internal testing > Pre Alpha > Alpha > Beta > Launch. Given that we are still in the Pre-Alpha testing phases, of course from a person who is only watching and not actively playing the game it might appare as if the game is "slow and clunky". The development cycle is to make sure it works first, and then make sure it looks good second. They are still in the making it work stage.

Next up, you called Black Desert Online a successful game. That is a nice opinion to have, however, by which metric, standard, or evaulation did you come up with this opinion? If this is a "tab vs action" debate, let me simply point you to the two most financially successful MMORPGs in History: World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XIV and they both utilize Tab Combat.

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