Replace Item decay with RNG Craft

Hiya forum

Updated! It has now became obvious that RNG craft is not beneficial to anything if there is item decay, so this post is now a pitch to replace item decay in favour of RNG craft.

All of below must be read with idea that there is no item decay and durability remains at 100%

What concerns me a little is the lack of "RNG" in crafting, let me explain my point and mayhaps you will see what I mean and even consider it being an interesting part of the game.

See currently it is said that there won't be RNG in crafting and I think it can actually be fun to have RNG in crafting, here is my vision for the grand design:

Say I decide to make my character be an artisan and say an armor smith, say there are 10 possible crafting levels, at level 1 I can craft basic gear and level 10 I can craft epic gear, so far so good right? So then say on level 1 I can craft level 1 gear (or its equivalent) with 100% chance and maybe 5% chance to have it with some sort of extra bonus like its "masterfully" crafted so i get some tiny bonus, but at same time I am able to craft level 2 gear but with 66% success rate or something like that and maybe level 3 gear with 33% success rate and 0% chance for "master craft". Now as I level up my smithing skill I get to level 2 craft and now I can craft level 2 armors and such with 90% chance of success and level 3 with 66% and level 4 with 33% chance and so on until the level 10 or whatever max level will be.

The fun part here is that at level 10 I should NOT have 100% chance to craft best gear in the game, say best gear in game is like level 12 so I should only be at around 60% chance to craft the main body of the armor and perhaps at 70% chance to craft the helm/ boots / gloves / jewels. with say 10% chance of master craft items, after all I am on top level crafting.

It is also worth pointing out that because of the drops and auction house it is likely that it will be cheaper to just buy the gear outright rather than to craft it, so for those who are not interested in this gamble there is a 100% chance to get the gear in Auction house, so implementing this system won't really take away from players who hate it.

For the rest of players who like to gamble his would do wonders - not only it's end game grind to get mats to attempt crafts but also a great money / resource sink + always ensure that top level crafters are required in community. You can be master crafter in 1 skill right, so being able to fail your crafts will keep such masters in high demand, will promote social aspect of the game, will encourage people with best gear in the game to still try to craft more for that little chance of getting the master crafted item and finally the most importantly, if this is not implemented then once players get their top gear there will be no need for the artisans again. Like if I have my dragon gods armor or, you know, something epic i don't need to craft another i don't care for crafters anymore...

I really feel that this will make the game much more epic and hey grind is already part of any mmorpg, might as well grind for the gear right? Plus obviously there is a chance that raid bosses will drop the full items as well, but again because these full items are dropped they are not master crafted so it will drive the community to attempt to craft gear even if it's not 100% chance.

I think it's a win win. Maybe this could even replace the need for the item decay system as if all the high tier craftsmen do is repair gear constantly it might get old real soon. RNG keeps things exciting.

To add some consolation for failed crafts, perhaps a portion of resources could still be salvaged or some temporary % increase for the next craft of the same item. Obviously you will iron out all the finer points but this is a high level design of how I think crafting would have been made epic!

let's discuss.

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Comments

Makosi

Nagash wrote: »

Don't people normally hate RNG in games?

Yeah and also hate challenges and hate grind and hate pvp and hate real graphics and hate cartoony graphics, hate wow, hate l2...ah man where do even stop. One thing is for sure though devs should never try to please everyone, that is a recipe for a fail as people will always be unhappy. Me, for example, i hate the idea of decay and love idea of RNG Craft.

Lincoln Hawk

Makosi wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Don't people normally hate RNG in games?

Yeah and also hate challenges and hate grind and hate pvp and hate real graphics and hate cartoony graphics, hate wow, hate l2...ah man where do even stop. One thing is for sure though devs should never try to please everyone, that is a recipe for a fail as people will always be unhappy. Me, for example, i hate the idea of decay and love idea of RNG Craft.

And it seems a minority.

Caeryl

No, crafting is going to be recipe-based and have minimal RNG (currently the only RNG involved is when you start over enchanting gear).

Item decay is required to keep the crafting economy in motion. If gear never needs to be repaired or replaced, crafting becomes an unviable playstyle, and IS want it to be genuinely rewarding to master artisan classes.

bloodprophet

phdmonster wrote: »

Makosi wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.

Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft

No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.

Right under Artisan Mastery https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes

Players must choose a path in the artisan skill tree for each character.[28] Within each of the three parent artisan paths (Gathering, Processing and Crafting) there are different professions. A character may only ever master one of these paths.[29][30]

Not quite

Caeryl

bloodprophet wrote: »

phdmonster wrote: »

Makosi wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.

Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft

No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.

Right under Artisan Mastery https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes

Players must choose a path in the artisan skill tree for each character.[28] Within each of the three parent artisan paths (Gathering, Processing and Crafting) there are different professions. A character may only ever master one of these paths.[29][30]

Not quite

Given it says directly in that quote that you can master an artisan path, I’d say you probably should read that wiki again.

Go look at the live-streams, there’s one that specifically mentioned players would be able to master the entire path given enough time and dedication. Personally I wouldn’t allow that, but I don’t get the final say there.

Nagash

Makosi wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Don't people normally hate RNG in games?

Yeah and also hate challenges and hate grind and hate pvp and hate real graphics and hate cartoony graphics, hate wow, hate l2...ah man where do even stop. One thing is for sure though devs should never try to please everyone, that is a recipe for a fail as people will always be unhappy. Me, for example, i hate the idea of decay and love idea of RNG Craft.

Mate, I play tabletop games all the time I love and hate RNG I was just commenting on peoples view

bloodprophet

Master 1 path not all paths. They don't want people being self sufficient. They want player interaction. Having 1 toon that can do everything would break the economy.
Item decay is designed to remove items from the game in late games stages. If you get an item and never have to replace it the crafters eventually run out of stuff to build.

GoaB

Makosi wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.

Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft

That sounds EXACTLY like what the devs said they want to avoid. They want to increase interaction, not kill it off. I mean, there is a reason they are going without dungeon finder.

GoaB

phdmonster wrote: »

Makosi wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

There is an escrow system (Might be the wrong name) in which you can approach a crafter and they will craft on the spot. If you want RNG to be added to that then no-one will use the escrow system. People will be aiming for the best gear they can afford/get. RNG just makes 99% worthless and 1% good. Sounds like a lovely reason to level a crafting profession. Not.

Oh no it's your crazy side talking again. You can only be master crafter in 1 area, carpentry, swordsmithing, armor smithing whatever, how can crafters ever get useless. If anything RNG craft will always always ensure that crafters are required. Not sure about this escrow system but ideally there will be a way to have my char being able to craft all of his crafts even if i am offline myself as a player, like here are the recipes I can do, here is how much it will cost, here are the resources that you need. We don't even need to talk to each other, you click on my craft book and you click on craft button for whatever you want to craft, i get the fee, resources are taken from your inventory and item if crafted successfully is moved to your inventory. There is no involvement from my side at all. Server determines if your craft was success, fail or mastercraft

No, you can master all professions under an Artisan Path (Gathering, Processing, Crafting). It takes a lot of time, but you can do it. That information is on the wikipedia pages for the game.

Right under Artisan Mastery https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes

The link you provided literally says otherwise my man.

Edit: I misread your original quote. Yes you can master a PATH.

Tehonatake

"... so this post is now a pitch to replace item decay in favour of RNG craft."

Absolutely not in favour of this "pitch". In my view item decay far out weighs a RNG systems. In fact, based on my experience playing AA and AAU, such a system will kill the game.

Makosi

Rekkor wrote: »

"... so this post is now a pitch to replace item decay in favour of RNG craft."

Absolutely not in favour of this "pitch". In my view item decay far out weighs a RNG systems. In fact, based on my experience playing AA and AAU, such a system will kill the game.

Whats AA and AAU?

Songcaller

Archeage and Archage unchained

Makosi

Ah i see that must be why there is such opposition, you played these "AA" and "AAU" which most likely sucked and one of the aspects in there was a crafting system similar to what i pitch for and you now are writing it off as a game killing idea

Well why not make a counter argument of similar level and introduce you to AO (Atlantica online) and they also have durability(decay) system and look game is unplayable mess now, must be because of this durability right

But okay silly stuff aside we really need more info on how exactly item decay will work, if it's not too intrusive then yeah whatever, but if it's literally end game content crippling where I simply cannot afford to take my epic gear out of closet then it will suck big time. I still think if you have it then its yours attitude is better. Right now end game pitch is get your epics so you can break them to repair your existing epics vs craft your epics with mostly positive outcome about 60% chance.

Caeryl

Makosi wrote: »

Ah i see that must be why there is such opposition, you played these "AA" and "AAU" which most likely sucked and one of the aspects in there was a crafting system similar to what i pitch for and you now are writing it off as a game killing idea Well why not make a counter argument of similar level and introduce you to AO (Atlantica online) and they also have durability(decay) system and look game is unplayable mess now, must be because of this durability right

But okay silly stuff aside we really need more info on how exactly item decay will work, if it's not too intrusive then yeah whatever, but if it's literally end game content crippling where I simply cannot afford to take my epic gear out of closet then it will suck big time. I still think if you have it then its yours attitude is better. Right now end game pitch is get your epics so you can break them to repair your existing epics vs craft your epics with mostly positive outcome about 60% chance.

We do have information on how items decay, through dying and through use.

It’s not going to break with one death, it won’t break after one swing, and I’m 99.99% sure there will be a durability indicator that makes it obvious how close you are to breaking the item.

RNG systems suck ass. They remove player agency.

Lack of item removal systems also sucks ass. They remove the demand for crafters and stagnate the player-economy.

Both together is a terrible idea on a terrible idea.

Marzzo

No. RNG is never fun. It is frustrating. It makes me want to quit when I worked 10x harder than someone and still get worse results.

It makes me fell bad when I work 1/10 as hard as someone and till get better results.

We already have RNG in enchanting and getting crafting supplies, that is enough for me.

Melaleuca

I disagree completely. I think item durability is a fine system, and I'd hate RNG in crafting. I like the idea of knowing exactly what I need to gather for the item I want to make and actually getting that item, not having a chance to get a slight bastardisation of the item I really wanted that I just have to get rid of and do all the gathering of materials again.

MrScrewtape

Black Desert has RNG, and it is among the top reasons people quite the game. RNG is absolutely horrible for most game mechanics, especially crafting. If I wanted an RNG game I'd go play a casino emulator

.

Also, without Item Decay the economy eventually will collapse as there has to be a method for items to leave the market. Also, I really don't like the idea of "I got the most uber best gear in the game 40 days in, I'm done forever until the next update/expansion for gear". I much rather enjoy systems where things decay and armor/weapons/items are a non-permanent item. Keeps the economy healthy.

GoaB

I think decay is alright. Yes, you will have a situation where an item you own no longer will be usable because you need to repair it. However, I see something interesting in that.
Players would have to have a range of items that they use for certain occasions. Your legendary boss drops / high value craftables would be considered prized possessions, so when you see a group of people equipped with top tier stuff you know they mean business.

Lalabum

If it doesn't add gameplay variety I don't want more RNG. Roguelikes? More pls. MMO gear? Less please. In a world as player driven as this one I think my character can tell the blacksmith, leatherworker, etc. how to craft the gear to fit my fighting style. Way more interesting that way.

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