Rogue, Ganks and Time to Kill

I posed this question to Jahlon during his live stream today and we had a bit of an interesting discussion about it. However I would like to get the wider community's opinion of this too. In the past Steven has stated that the Time to Kill for PVP to be in-between 30-60 seconds. I feel like 30 seconds is too long for a gank to be effective. There should be enough time for people to react but part of ganking is catching somebody off guard. Having 20-25 seconds at the minimum to prevent a gank seems really biased against rogues. Jahlon (correct me if I am wrong, I am going off memory) brought up the fact that we do not know how rogues will interact in AoC PVP yet, that they will not receive true invisibility and that part of this point comes from a bias informed by how ganking functions in other games.

But what do you guys think about this? Should rogues be able to gank as they do in other games or should they operate in another capacity? Perhaps they could act as a distraction, apply short term debuffs that potentially hurt or cc key backline rolls or perhaps they can flank the enemy as the main force attacks and create a pincer like attack.

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Cold 0ne FTB

noaani wrote: »

Cold 0ne FTB wrote: »

To address your point about scouting, it really depends on the game. Personally I prefer having an active role in combat and I want to be an important part of that aspect of the fight.

While it does depend on the game, there is no denying that Ashes is a game that will allow for better use of scouting and good intel than any other MMO out there.

As such, if gathering that intel is something that should be considered in class balance, then it is obviously something that rogues will excel at - I mean, the rogue/ranger class is even called a scout.

That's a fair point but we don't know how the other classes will function, we may be able to scout using summons or rangers.

Lfmr

It just seems really odd that because some people don't like the way Rogues are played, or think it's dishonorable, that other players who actually enjoy the playstyle of Rogue / Stealth classes should have to bend to their whim.

The Entire concept of a rogue is a scoundrel that uses every cheat and trick in the book to give himself every advantage, whether that be pocket sand or backstabbing. I think it would be a major mistake to take away the class fantasy of the Rogue just because certain players don't like Rogues.

Ambushing players with stealth should give the Rogue a clear advantage in the fight, but if the only thing that Rogues can do is ambush, then the class is going to be hot garbage. One of the main draws for me to playing a Rogue class in MMO's is the control it offers you when taking fights. You decide what fights you take, and if you decide that the fight is no longer beneficial to you, or if you think you might lose, you can escape or reset the fight, either through crowd control, or restealths.

I also think that the crowd control that Rogues generally offer is incredibly beneficial to groups, especially in defending group leaders, and their ability to assassinate key targets in Zerg vs Zerg fights also generally makes them incredibly desirable in PvP, not to mention they would be great scouts, and information is a very valuable resource in PvP games.

One of my favorite Rogue classes in MMO's is the Sith Assassin in Swtor, which has many similarities to the Outlaw Rogue in WoW, I just love all of the conditional damage and random chance procks, but maybe that's just my inner gambler speaking.

Now personally, I am excited for a stealth system which actually allows for players to detect you, I think this will actually be a lot of fun to try to avoid detection, like it will tap into my inner rogue and make it feel like you're actually sneaking around, instead of just always knowing you're pretty much undetectable. I just fear that it might become meta to pair Rogue with ranged weapons since it might be too easy to detect Rogues once they get into melee range.

Really hope that Steven does not cater to the Rogue Haters out there, or if he does, we can expect buffs quickly when they under perform.

Whiskiz

Rogue should get full stealth - but it's either not permanent so you can't be 100% safe all the time (say lasts for 30 seconds with a 15 second cd afterward) and you need to be aware of your surroundings too, or you should be slow in it so it takes careful movement and preparation as well as opportunity, or some other way to balance the fact - you know i guess other than the usual being squishy and cd/burst based.

I think most of the people fretting about rogues, in a game that hasn't even got a test version of the class up and running yet let alone having the game released - are bad players that would get destroyed by any class regardless, with a good player behind it.

Let's not scream for nerfs yet based on past experiences of random unknown players.

If Rogues are so OP why don't you only see them in the upper tiers of arena in WoW, etc? Just because you can't handle a class that gets to attack first, at any time, doesn't mean they're OP, don't have other weaknesses, or should automatically be changed.

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