Stevens reply on family summoning at Ashes Pathfinders #84

Sounds great how he explained its "anti-cheat" mechanic. 30sec-1min cast time for the summon and a 30min CD on the ability. But, anyone else concerned how easy its to chain it? For 10 people it still means 5 people needs to travel, but if everyone has chained their summon to 1 more player, its still only 5 needing traveling. Boosting your raid/gank/war party from 5 to 10 in 1min, they can then summon 5 more people and so on. Adding a 30min CD on the ability for the person being summoned aswell, would solve this no? Or add a reagent cost to the summon. Or some kind of PvP debuff on whoever is summoned. Just abit worried about shock PvP partys with this mechanic.

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Noaani

bloodmeridian wrote: »

Boy wrote: »

I see. What about the idea of distance related cooldown?

I see this as a viable solution for the caravan problem. A variable timer based on how far the players are from each other. In the same town the cooldown may only be a couple of minutes but if they are on opposites sides for the map it could be several hours.

Also seems like a way to get around a potential ambush, or quickly pass through an otherwise hostile area.

Literally anything done to make the use of this easier or more common will result in more situations in which it can and will be used to bypass key aspects of the games risk structure.

BloodNog

noaani wrote: »

Also seems like a way to get around a potential ambush, or quickly pass through an otherwise hostile area.

Literally anything done to make the use of this easier or more common will result in more situations in which it can and will be used to bypass key aspects of the games risk structure.

You can use the current time to achieve the same thing. This would make the timer longer over longer distance so it doesn't make it easier or more common.

If you are using that as a point to remove teleportation completely, I'm not going to go there.

Noaani

bloodmeridian wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Also seems like a way to get around a potential ambush, or quickly pass through an otherwise hostile area.

Literally anything done to make the use of this easier or more common will result in more situations in which it can and will be used to bypass key aspects of the games risk structure.

You can use the current time to achieve the same thing. This would make the timer longer over longer distance so it doesn't make it easier or more common.

If you are using that as a point to remove teleportation completely, I'm not going to go there.

You could, but then you are locked out of it for the day, meaing you still had to get back.

Again, if this is in the game, it will be exploited no end. The idea of limitations to it are not to prevent exploits, it is to cut them down as much as possible.

The best suggestion to that end remains to simply remove the teleport from the game - but that is not what I am suggesting. I am simply pointing out how easy other peoples suggestions are to abuse.

Essentially, when ever the timer for this is up, it will be abused in one way or another. This ability will be used in an abusive manner an order of magnitude more than it will be used for it's legitimate purpose.

B1uefalc0n

There are multiple threads on this topic and I have left an extensive reply on a different thread but the gist of it is that you need to understand what the mechanic was intended for, Friends being able to summon their friends to dungeons and other content points. Your guy's solution to give a summon timer on both the summoner and the one being summoned would ruin the entire point of the mechanic as you couldn't get your main group to that dungeon. My solution to the issue as I realize it does present an issue in PvP is to only allow summons within a node, freehold, dungeon entrance, raid entrance, world boss locations, etc.. by only being allowed to summon at points of interest allows the mechanic to be used as it was intended while also preventing people from being able to teleport to a random location in the world to gank or prevent ganks.

Noaani

B1uefalc0n wrote: »

Your guy's solution to give a summon timer on both the summoner and the one being summoned would ruin the entire point of the mechanic as you couldn't get your main group to that dungeon.

The point isn't to get the whole group, the point is to get one or two peope that are late.

Groups in Ashes are supposed to actually go to the in game location of the dungeon if they want to run that dungeon. This system is not an over all bypass of that - it is a way to get that friend that was held up at work or whatever in to the dungeon easier.

There should be no need for the whole family to need to cast this more than twice every 18 hours. If you have a group of 8 friends, and more than 2 of them are not there yet, you wait for them.

Kaielogy

This is a pretty easy problem to solve, if summoning is for convenience in dungeons or raids, just lock character animation for 2-3mins and show a 'summoning player' icon in the map so other players in a large zone of influence know a summoning is taking place. This will greatly deter people from using it for pvp or zerging. Make cool down once a day too.

Aardvark

Current wrote: »

If you have a scouting party of 5. They could quickly turn into 40.
The scouting party summons 1 each, scouting party now has 30min CD, the summoned people does not.
The summoned people, summons 5 new people and so on.
A scouting party of 10 would turn into 80 in 7mins, if cast time is 1min.
It wouldn't be abusing the system, if it is the system. But a game without fast traveling, it
seems to be a quick way of moving people around.
Another issue that comes to mind is alts + multi accounting. Group them as family members, and have them logged out around the world for fast and easy travel.
Looking forward to see the end result tho, after all the testing.

You are assuming you can be the member of more than 1 family which they said you could not. Meaning you would have the same family list as the person you summoned you. So you summoning after you were summoned wouldn't summon anyone who didn't already get the same summon you got.

Eques3n

I wouldn't mind an 8 or even 12 hour cool down on the summon AND for the summoned person's family so they couldn't be summoned again. This way if it is used, some people will port there and those on CD would have to make the trek and it would make you think twice before using it and accepting it. Just a thought.

Noaani

Aardvark wrote: »

Current wrote: »

If you have a scouting party of 5. They could quickly turn into 40.
The scouting party summons 1 each, scouting party now has 30min CD, the summoned people does not.
The summoned people, summons 5 new people and so on.
A scouting party of 10 would turn into 80 in 7mins, if cast time is 1min.
It wouldn't be abusing the system, if it is the system. But a game without fast traveling, it
seems to be a quick way of moving people around.
Another issue that comes to mind is alts + multi accounting. Group them as family members, and have them logged out around the world for fast and easy travel.
Looking forward to see the end result tho, after all the testing.

You are assuming you can be the member of more than 1 family which they said you could not. Meaning you would have the same family list as the person you summoned you. So you summoning after you were summoned wouldn't summon anyone who didn't already get the same summon you got.

If your whole family gets the summoned with one use of the ability (as per Archeage Hero summon abilities) then you would only need one cooldown to turn a group of 5 players to a full raid of 40.

So instead of it taking 7 minutes to do, it would take 1 minute.

MrScrewtape

With monster certificates increasing in value the farther away you sell them. Would it be possible that with some coordination among your family (or simply someone paying for multiple accounts) have them stationed as far apart as possible and use the summon option to sell for massive returns?

Current

Aardvark wrote: »

Current wrote: »

If you have a scouting party of 5. They could quickly turn into 40.
The scouting party summons 1 each, scouting party now has 30min CD, the summoned people does not.
The summoned people, summons 5 new people and so on.
A scouting party of 10 would turn into 80 in 7mins, if cast time is 1min.
It wouldn't be abusing the system, if it is the system. But a game without fast traveling, it
seems to be a quick way of moving people around.
Another issue that comes to mind is alts + multi accounting. Group them as family members, and have them logged out around the world for fast and easy travel.
Looking forward to see the end result tho, after all the testing.

You are assuming you can be the member of more than 1 family which they said you could not. Meaning you would have the same family list as the person you summoned you. So you summoning after you were summoned wouldn't summon anyone who didn't already get the same summon you got.

I was assuming you could only be part of 1 family. Hopefully it will be "exploited" to the extreme during the tests. Like many of the examples above from goods transportation, loot carriers, monster certificate porters etc.
Even multiple accounts, not sure if that is avail in alpha/beta testing, but if the system was to be as is now, id buy an additional account just to have a "main" character summoned around the world with alts.

Boy

screwtape wrote: »

With monster certificates increasing in value the farther away you sell them. Would it be possible that with some coordination among your family (or simply someone paying for multiple accounts) have them stationed as far apart as possible and use the summon option to sell for massive returns?

I would hope that you couldn't tele while holding certs, or they drop on teleport or something.

StevenSharif

The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event (caravan battle, siege, war) and they would need to have their mats, gatherables, or certs in their warehouse/storage not in their inventory. Otherwise the summon would fail. But as I said, this will all be tested. 😁❤️

Songcaller

Thank you, Steven. Much appreciated for your time. I feel most concerns will be nullified by such facts. Of course, testing is always required for systems. No sweat. No worries.

Boy

That's kind of the whole point of having an Alpha, and a Beta. I am 1000% sure there are gonna be exploits of game mechanics, but these things are gonna be seen. As much as people want the game to be perfect, it won't get there until the game is released.

Undead Canuck

There are a lot of things that I won't do in a released game that I will do in the testing. Just to make sure it has been tested.

Atama

noaani wrote: »

Tsukasa wrote: »

Just get rid of the family system or any utility it provides!!!! I don't want a family but also don't want to mess out on its utilities... There are too many social systems in this game!

Make them completely optional without utilities.

I actually agree.

I can't see a why to add the summon ability to the game in a way that won't be easily exploited in some manner.

I agree with @Tsukasa also which shows how big of a deal this is.

Noaani

StevenSharif wrote: »

The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event (caravan battle, siege, war) and they would need to have their mats, gatherables, or certs in their warehouse/storage not in their inventory. Otherwise the summon would fail. But as I said, this will all be tested. 😁❤️

So, I can still have a friend park an alt in each metropolis, and get instant travel to any of them. I can see there being a lot of alts parked in both economic and scientific metropois nodes - to the point I don't think the airships would be necessary at all.

This means one character would be able to easily list finished items for sale in all metropois markets, unless you need to be a citizen in order to list - in which case it still allows people to easily buy from any market, as long as they aren't buying materials.

It kind of means there is no good reason to not have a postal service as well, just make it one where materials and certs can't be posted.

Also, I have to assume that along with the summons not working if the target is in a siege, it also wouldn't work if the caster is. Otherwise, a single stealthed character could get themselves in to a useful spot and then summon a full group in - but yeah, I would assume that can't be done.

Then there is the question of a stealth character making their way to the bottom of a dungeon all stealthily like, and summoning a group there. Prevents the need for the group to fight their way down.

People will attempt to summon others in to instances. While we currently have no idea what form or content type instances will take, you do. I'm sure you have thought of this.

I would also hope invites to families can only be done if the characters are in visual sight of each other. If not, I can see people parking alts in specific locations and offering ports for sale. While I am not sure where, it would end up being anywhere people want to go that is designed to be out of the way - or it could even just be to a distant metropolis. If it is an alt that only exista for this purpose, the period from dropping one family until you can join another is meaningless.

That is a few of the ways I can still see it being abused, and that is without seeing it in action, or without seeing the game.

There will be more.

Aardvark

StevenSharif wrote: »

The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event (caravan battle, siege, war) and they would need to have their mats, gatherables, or certs in their warehouse/storage not in their inventory. Otherwise the summon would fail. But as I said, this will all be tested. 😁❤️

If you have to run all the way back to a warehouse to drop stuff off in there, it would make this pretty worthless to use not because you wanted to exploit anything but because your family goes we need to summon and you go ok give me 20min to run back to town and drop off my stuff...whatever they wanted to summon you for would be long over by the time you got to town and deposited all the stuff you can't have on you.

Atama

Aardvark wrote: »

StevenSharif wrote: »

The summon ability in current design could not be used if the member being summoned was in combat, corrupted, or in an event (caravan battle, siege, war) and they would need to have their mats, gatherables, or certs in their warehouse/storage not in their inventory. Otherwise the summon would fail. But as I said, this will all be tested. 😁❤️

If you have to run all the way back to a warehouse to drop stuff off in there, it would make this pretty worthless to use not because you wanted to exploit anything but because your family goes we need to summon and you go ok give me 20min to run back to town and drop off my stuff...whatever they wanted to summon you for would be long over by the time you got to town and deposited all the stuff you can't have on you.

That just opens a new kind of economy, where people run around willing to buy your whole inventory for a couple coins so you can teleport right away.

It reminds me of the people calling themselves ATMs back in EQ, since coins had weight they’d exchange gold for silver and copper at a small markup.

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