Is there a need for somekind of statistical/breakdown tools, e.g., DMG meters in the game?

There are a ton of reasons why people want and don't want meters, I am against adding damage meters but I really like your idea. Instead of just adding a very crude meter, have it integrated into the system of AoC. For example, having another artisan class where you can become a master of gathering this information. As you slowly progress the artisan class you unlock more detailed information based on the encounter that can be then shared with others in game.

Xrael

Astrobinary wrote: »

There are a ton of reasons why people want and don't want meters, I am against adding damage meters but I really like your idea. Instead of just adding a very crude meter, have it integrated into the system of AoC. For example, having another artisan class where you can become a master of gathering this information. As you slowly progress the artisan class you unlock more detailed information based on the encounter that can be then shared with others in game.

Nah that would be a bad profession. Information isn't as valuable as physical items.

Aardvark

all you need is a test dummy range

CaptainChuck wrote: »

Astrobinary wrote: »

There are a ton of reasons why people want and don't want meters, I am against adding damage meters but I really like your idea. Instead of just adding a very crude meter, have it integrated into the system of AoC. For example, having another artisan class where you can become a master of gathering this information. As you slowly progress the artisan class you unlock more detailed information based on the encounter that can be then shared with others in game.

Nah that would be a bad profession. Information isn't as valuable as physical items.

To you information is not as valuable, but if you see the min/max community, information is king. Also, having this information can be the major factor in being able to complete a raid in a certain time which in turn will reward you with top of the line loot aka physical items.

Especially with item degradation, the numbers will constantly have to be researched in order to maintain min/man.

Xrael

Astrobinary wrote: »

CaptainChuck wrote: »

Astrobinary wrote: »

There are a ton of reasons why people want and don't want meters, I am against adding damage meters but I really like your idea. Instead of just adding a very crude meter, have it integrated into the system of AoC. For example, having another artisan class where you can become a master of gathering this information. As you slowly progress the artisan class you unlock more detailed information based on the encounter that can be then shared with others in game.

Nah that would be a bad profession. Information isn't as valuable as physical items.

To you information is not as valuable, but if you see the min/max community, information is king.

No my problem is that they will only have a very niche use.

They would only be invited to guilds with extremely competitive players.

Its not necessary that every server is going to have such kind of guilds.

So you will end up with a profession that has no physical value most of the time.

All the artisan classes are interconnected to each other and you need to depend on one for the other. How will you introduce a profession that deals with information into this mix?

CaptainChuck wrote: »

Astrobinary wrote: »

CaptainChuck wrote: »

Astrobinary wrote: »

There are a ton of reasons why people want and don't want meters, I am against adding damage meters but I really like your idea. Instead of just adding a very crude meter, have it integrated into the system of AoC. For example, having another artisan class where you can become a master of gathering this information. As you slowly progress the artisan class you unlock more detailed information based on the encounter that can be then shared with others in game.

Nah that would be a bad profession. Information isn't as valuable as physical items.

To you information is not as valuable, but if you see the min/max community, information is king.

No my problem is that they will only have a very niche use.

They would only be invited to guilds with extremely competitive players.

Its not necessary that every server is going to have such kind of guilds.

So you will end up with a profession that has no physical value most of the time.

All the artisan classes are interconnected to each other and you need to depend on one for the other. How will you introduce a profession that deals with information into this mix?

Granted this is only an idea and the profession would have to be flushed out more to be integrated into the system. For example, it could require a special metal in order for a machine to process the information, or it could require special tools/furniture etc.

Having no physical value is also subjective. One could say breeding mounts is pointless since all you need is one mount. However there are people who want the fastest and people who want to collect. Being able to research fights and share data could be another profession that will tie in well with a lot of people.

WMC51

I think the % of people who LIKE to min/max is very small the dislike it causes people who are forces to do it to join a guild or group is far more a negative for games.

My wife quites games over you need to this combo or get this gear to do enough damage. Follow this build guide etc.

I've taken down plenty of raids and dungeons in MMOs with indergeared or not optimized good players. Although sure you're screwed in DPS race fights.

Cold 0ne FTB

Deztox wrote: »

The game seems to cater to players that want to seek out insane achievements like becoming a mayor of a great metropolis or a monarch and in this process being rewarded with Royal Mounts only possessed by approximately 0.1% of the concurrent player base. This is a very elitist approach where the risk and effort gives very unique and special rewards.

However, most end-game players love to figure out how to optimize their gear, rotations and in this game, there will extreme diversity through the augment system. As we currently know, no addons will be allowed in the game, which then begs the question - How do we compare players and improve ourselves in the endgame? There seems to be opposition from some part of the player base to include DMG meters and such, as it for some players seems like a very blunt and crude measure. But at some point, people that are trying to progress and push themselves would like to get some tools to do so.

My thoughts on the matter are that it should not be a part of the game as you play it but, e.g., a combat log of sorts where you can look up various stats, that could be overall damage done, healing done, damage taken, buffs/auras used, steps ran (kiting?). As it shouldn't be part of the fight when you're actually playing the game as an addon - but a tool where you can research after an event; what might work well and what might work poorly. This will also add an additional layer of progression for a large set of players that will be able to improve their gameplay by understanding the differences in performance.

I fear that the lack of some kind of breakdown tool will heavily reduce the end-game competitiveness in the game, which would be a shame, as it seems that the better you perform the harder content you fight and the better rewards you get.

What are your thoughts on this matter?

Deztox

This also really depends on what different items do and if there is a visible leveling/ability scale to items. In some games like eso, there are hundreds of different possible sets and items that players can use. Not only that but multiple different stats contribute to the damage done by skills. DPS meters suits a game like that because of the variety of sources of damage and because not all sources are equal. This might turn out be not necessary for AoC as there maybe less stats that determine the damage done.

I don't think having an ingame meter or profession to determine buff and debuffs provides much value, as it would be fairly easy to determine this with the help excel statistics and a general knowledge of classes.

One thing I will point out is that in PvP combat the element of player skill plays a crucial role in determining the damage done. Depending on how strong the meta is an off meta player maybe able to defeat somebody who follows the meta to a T. Further in my experience the best way to learn the meta in these types of games is to duel other players dozens and dozens of times and to experiment with different abilties, items, etc etc.

WMC51 wrote: »

I think the % of people who LIKE to min/max is very small the dislike it causes people who are forces to do it to join a guild or group is far more a negative for games.

My wife quites games over you need to this combo or get this gear to do enough damage. Follow this build guide etc.

I've taken down plenty of raids and dungeons in MMOs with indergeared or not optimized good players. Although sure you're screwed in DPS race fights.

I think the min/max progression won't be as forced as in other MMOs because of dynamic looting tables, gear degradation and the lack of data mining. This profession will assist competitive players and hardcore raiders.

Again, I am against the whole meter thing as I won't personally care for it, nor am I a competitive player but I do feel it would be a nice addition for the top 1% of players who are willing to spend countless hours to master a profession in order to see a bunch of numbers.

Due to degradation, it is highly unlikely most people will use the UBER MAX SUPER DUPER ARMOUR setups all the time. Most will use items which allow the completion of the content but won't risk their top tier items until a true need arises. After all, if you have killed content without the UBER MAX SUPER DUPER ARMOUR, it is highly likely what you had on during the kill would still be relevant after you get the UBER MAX SUPER DUPER ARMOUR. I see no reason for DPS Meters to confirm this. I would see it in the game regardless.

Neurath wrote: »

Due to degradation, it is highly unlikely most people will use the UBER MAX SUPER DUPER ARMOUR setups all the time. Most will use items which allow the completion of the content but won't risk their top tier items until a true need arises. After all, if you have killed content without the UBER MAX SUPER DUPER ARMOUR, it is highly likely what you had on during the kill would still be relevant after you get the UBER MAX SUPER DUPER ARMOUR. I see no reason for DPS Meters to confirm this. I would see it in the game regardless.

I agree what you are saying, but you keep saying most people. I am also included into this "most people" category where I would just rather play and improve based on what I can complete. However, you have to take into account the top 1% of competitive players. I know it would be a profession that both you and I will not waste our time with, but there are people who will dedicate their time providing this information for their guild. An MMO, should cater to all group of players, from role playing, to casual, to semi-causal to hardcore.

This profession can be apart of the crafting tree where it would still rely on those who gather and process. Where you would need certain processed materials and the right furniture to "gather data". This won't be: "every single fight, here are the dps meters" it would have to be planned and supported by more than one individual. So it is not simply, a dps meter, but a profession that can gather information from the world.

In my opinion, IS should just add a DPS Meter into the game. It is not fair some would have access to it and others will not. It is also not right from some to use Third Party Software when others will not. I personally dislike DPS Meters, or any applications which let someone else spy on my personal performance and personal choices. If IS were to make the system then it would be fair. I do not think IS should waste time making a Crafting Profession for it, if IS did change current policy then a DPS Meter would be all that is required in my opinion.

Neurath wrote: »

In my opinion, IS should just add a DPS Meter into the game. It is not fair some would have access to it and others will not. It is also not right from some to use Third Party Software when others will not. I personally dislike DPS Meters, or any applications which let someone else spy on my personal performance and personal choices. If IS were to make the system then it would be fair. I do not think IS should waste time making a Crafting Profession for it, if IS did change current policy then a DPS Meter would be all that is required in my opinion.

Sure, I don't think at this current point in development they should "waste" time in developing another profession since I am sure their design doc are massive enough. However, slapping on a simple DPS meter is the WORST artificial band-aid that will only exacerbate the concerns with meters. Either properly integrate information gathering within the game or don't at all.

Thanks for all the comments, I think you guys have a lot of different and good points on the matter.
We're scratching the surface is a bit here where you're mentioning the top 1%, but these are often the players that you will follow on stream and provide content that people will watch on Twitch, etc. It creates a rivalry between super competitive guilds if they can "measure" a bit against each other.

And given that it is introduced to the game, e.g., through a combat log as previously proposed or even through a profession as some mention (I personally think this would be overkill) doesn't mean that everyone will use it. It seems that there will be many ways to play this game and it will cater to various difficulties, so people that don't want to min/max can just choose to leave the "meta" gamers to themselves and enjoy themselves.

Also, I'm not ONLY talking about DPS meters here guys, please read the initial post

Astrobinary wrote: »

Sure, I don't think at this current point in development they should "waste" time in developing another profession since I am sure their design doc are massive enough. However, slapping on a simple DPS meter is the WORST artificial band-aid that will only exacerbate the concerns with meters. Either properly integrate information gathering within the game or don't at all.

I would expect any DPS Meter IS could potentially make to be to a high standard, with full combat logs available too. I would not expect a bodge job. It is mere academic points however, IS so far are against DPS Meters. Furthermore, I appreciate simplistic UIs, I don't particularly want a ton of pointless information. If something only relates to 1% of people, why should 99% of people be stuck with an overcrowded UI which grants no benefit and clouds the combat?

The topic itself is very broad. There are literally thousands of ways a DPS Meter can be displayed, hundreds of ways a DPS Meter can be implemented and numerous ways information could be gathered. So far though, IS won't allow Third Party Software and Steven is against a DPS Meter.

Kohl

No matter how you slice it DPS Meter is important for those who are serious to clear certain content.
If the bosses are on a time-limit, at which point they go nuclear and kill everybody, the players have the right to see if everyone in their party is pulling their weight.
I dislike lazy people. But they're there, and they just do the bare minimum. It's not my, or anyone's job to fill in the gap they're leaving.
Make the DPS Meter in game, or consider it a gray area, and only go after people who use the statistics to insult other players.

Neurath wrote: »

Astrobinary wrote: »

I would expect any DPS Meter IS could potentially make to be to a high standard, with full combat logs available too. I would not expect a bodge job. It is mere academic points however, IS so far are against DPS Meters. Furthermore, I appreciate simplistic UIs, I don't particularly want a ton of pointless information. If something only relates to 1% of people, why should 99% of people be stuck with an overcrowded UI which grants no benefit and clouds the combat?

Please read the initial post The whole idea was actually to have something that didn't affect gameplay and UI, but something you could look at after.

Cold 0ne FTB wrote: »

This also really depends on what different items do and if there is a visible leveling/ability scale to items. In some games like eso, there are hundreds of different possible sets and items that players can use. Not only that but multiple different stats contribute to the damage done by skills. DPS meters suits a game like that because of the variety of sources of damage and because not all sources are equal. This might turn out be not necessary for AoC as there maybe less stats that determine the damage done.

I don't think having an ingame meter or profession to determine buff and debuffs provides much value, as it would be fairly easy to determine this with the help excel statistics and a general knowledge of classes.

One thing I will point out is that in PvP combat the element of player skill plays a crucial role in determining the damage done. Depending on how strong the meta is an off meta player maybe able to defeat somebody who follows the meta to a T. Further in my experience the best way to learn the meta in these types of games is to duel other players dozens and dozens of times and to experiment with different abilties, items, etc etc.

Very good points your bringing to the table. I personally don't think it should be a part of the UI as such, but a feature you could bring up after a fight or death to investigate what happened.