archetype trinity and aoc classes | main tank and dedicated healing

Only having one class be a viable main tank and another for primary healing would seem likely to cause considerable contention for those two classes. something that happens in many other games.

has there been any discussion from devs on this?

possible solution would be for larger group raid content to be best to have tank class in main tank role and cleric for main support however all smaller group content is viable for more hybrid classes to function in those roles.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Noaani

A part of the system that assists in this is that groups in Ashes are 8 players rather than 5 or 6.

This means that if you have one tank and healer in Ashes, they are able to run 6 DPS though content, whereas in WoW or similar, they could run 3 DPS through content.

Essentially, this means Ashes needs have the tanks of other games.

WMC51

How do we know there aren't 16 viable tabk classes since you can be a tank with any secondary or any primary with a tank secondary. Steven even mentioned evasion tanking.

I just hope the rogue tank doesn't tank and dos better than a tank tank like in some other games.

Sure tank tank should have the most damage mitigation because they chose that route but it doesn't mean noone else can tank. You might just have to be more creative and skilled to pull off other classes.

The tank tank usually sacrifices damage and therefore can take longer to gring out levels so they should be rewarded for that work by being the top of the tank list. Its in their name, twice.

Songcaller

IS stated to be able to tank you'd need a Primary Tank Archetype, a Rogue Tank would be tankier than a Rogue Rogue but in no way will a Rogue Tank be able to Tank like a Tank/Rogue.

Wandering Mist

A lot of this depends on how the augments work and how difficult the content is. For example, we have been told that Bards get a third party heal that is weaker than the Cleric's, and Summoners will have healing capabilities too since they are the jack-of-all-trades class. Now depending on how hard the group content is, you might very well be able to clear it by using Healing-focused Bards or Summoners rather than Clerics.

The same goes for Tanks. We don't know yet if taking the Tank as a secondary class will give you access to threat generation abilities and taunts. If they do, you might very well be able to tank effectively as a Fighter/Tank or something similar.

Noaani

WMC51 wrote: »

How do we know there aren't 16 viable tabk classes since you can be a tank with any secondary or any primary with a tank secondary. Steven even mentioned evasion tanking.

Because there are only 15 classes that are either tank/X or X/tank.

Frostduck

Steven actually came out and said that they aim to make it optimal to have all 8 core archetypes in party. The adventuring skills (search, tracking etc) are supposed to be huge.

And raids are always going to be a clusterfuck. So it should be as fine as it can be.

Leiloni

You can't tank with tank secondary, only tank primary. Same with Cleric. Your primary class determines your role, your secondary customizes how you do that role.

Isharya

Perhaps as an off tank? It's hard to say without seeing the augments. If one of the Tank augments is threat gen then you might be able to generate more threat than normal but most likely not have a taunt or other generally necessary tank abilities.

As for healer they said Bard has some heals but nothing like a cleric. But i am curious to see if there are any other "healing" related augments from guilds / religions / citizenship / wherever other augments come from other than your 2nd class. While Cleric/Cleric and Cleric/Bard might both be viable dungeon / raid specs for group content, im not sure the others will really add to the cleric to make them diverse enough. Like a Cleric / Ranger or Cleric / Fighter i see as more of a healer who can hold their own in PVP and solo content but not contribute a ton to group (still contribute but just not in the same way).

But i think it's still a bit too early to talk about some of the balance since as far as im aware not all of the classes are implemented yet, at least not all of the classes have any sort of released information on them.

delghinn

Leiloni wrote: »

You can't tank with tank secondary, only tank primary. Same with Cleric. Your primary class determines your role, your secondary customizes how you do that role.

if that proves the case it'll be the same as many other games with extreme class contention for classes to fill the tank and healing roles.

WMC51

noaani wrote: »

WMC51 wrote: »

How do we know there aren't 16 viable tabk classes since you can be a tank with any secondary or any primary with a tank secondary. Steven even mentioned evasion tanking.

Because there are only 15 classes that are either tank/X or X/tank.

Yoy caught me slacking

WMC51

tank primary still gives you 8 classes that can tank.

We've had enough rogue tanks in other MMOs. Let the people dedicated to tanking tank. We have enough we give up in killing stuff slow and questing slower.

I'm sure there will be bosses where you want a mage tank or something so some reason.

delghinn

WMC51 wrote: »

tank primary still gives you 8 classes that can tank.

We've had enough rogue tanks in other MMOs. Let the people dedicated to tanking tank. We have enough we give up in killing stuff slow and questing slower.

I'm sure there will be bosses where you want a mage tank or something so some reason.

8 out of 64. which is really one class (out of 8) as it's only the base primary that matters as it's apparently the only class that can fill one of the three trinity archetypes. there's also the matter of only being one class that can perform another of the trinity.

it is not like we dont have numerous examples of similar games that all have the same issue with there being so few viable tank and heal/support classes.

Songcaller

delghinn wrote: »

it is not like we dont have numerous examples of similar games that all have the same issue with there being so few viable tank and heal/support classes.

8 Classes to Heal, 8 Classes to Tank. I would consider these numbers to be very generous. Few of the other MMOs I have played have had 8 Tanks or 8 Types of Healer...I do not see the concerns.

delghinn

Neurath wrote: »

delghinn wrote: »

it is not like we dont have numerous examples of similar games that all have the same issue with there being so few viable tank and heal/support classes.

8 Classes to Heal, 8 Classes to Tank. I would consider these numbers to be very generous. Few of the other MMOs I have played have had 8 Tanks or 8 Types of Healer...I do not see the concerns.

out of 64? that's the some extreme class contention for one of the trinity roles. same issue with clerics being the only viable main support/heals.

dedicated tanks and healers are not popular enough to only have one class serve the class trinity role. evidence by every single other game that goes through all the drama of the community begging to get people to run classes in a spec to do so or ever far worse in the situation that aoc is in that only has one class each to perform two of the trinity archetypes.

my solution:
tank/* can main tank
*/tank can main tank
cleric/* can main support/heal
*/cleric can main support/heal

tank/tank is just the most thematic classic armored board and sword tank
cleric/cleric is similarly just the most thematic classic armored mace wielding healer

neither being most effective at tank / healing, they're equal in capacity just most aligned in classic concept

Songcaller

Cleric aren't the only support classes, Summoners are a jack of all trades and Bards can proc Heals. It is right that Cleric is the main healer but it will not be the lone healer. I switched from Cleric to Bard because I like the difference (Haven't seen Bard in practice yet though). People with Cleric as a Secondary Archetype can choose either Life Augments or Death Augments, which means self healing will be possible.

It is not clear what Tank Secondary will enable but it should allow people to take more Damage (I assume). Tank is a more specialised role than the Support Classes in some ways.

delghinn

Neurath wrote: »

Cleric aren't the only support classes, Summoners are a jack of all trades and Bards can proc Heals. It is right that Cleric is the main healer but it will not be the lone healer. I switched from Cleric to Bard because I like the difference (Haven't seen Bard in practice yet though). People with Cleric as a Secondary Archetype can choose either Life Augments or Death Augments, which means self healing will be possible.

It is not clear what Tank Secondary will enable but it should allow people to take more Damage (I assume). Tank is a more specialised role than the Support Classes in some ways.

If a summoner/* is unable to provide main support/heals than as far as people putting groups together to take on group content they may as well not do any support/heal at all. Cleric secondary having the primary class gain access to mostly self heal/support (regardless if that's in defensive life heal or offensive death life drain) doesnt mean anything to anyone else as far as group composition.

I recall the same discussions that state basically the same thing you're restating. secondary class only augments in limited ways the primary classes abilities.

my point is they are making a mistake. tanking and primary healing roles are always undeserved. restricting the ability to do each of those roles to a singular class is going to be make matters even worse.

Songcaller

Most of us do not want blurred lines where all classes can tank DPS and heal. There would be no definition of roles and also no point in primary class choice. It is perfectly acceptable to have 8 styles of tank and 16 styles of support (not counting summoner).

Groups will be balanced and one tank can take 7 others in a group. The group size is bigger than other MMOs but not the biggest I've seen. Therefore, less tanks will be needed overall. They need to make the 8 tank classes unique and pleasant to play. Not double the tank options to 16 variations. Primary Archetype matters.

Fathym

I made a very similar post to this a while back. If they go for a basic trinity system where every group needs 1 tank 1 healer and then any combination of dps, we'll be in for some major grouping problems, especially between levels 1 and 25 when there is no sub classes to help counter act the availability issues. They have said that it will take around a month playing 4-6 hours a day to reach level cap. If leveling time is linear that means, for the first full 2 weeks of play, finding groups as a dps will be an absolute nightmare.

The best case scenario would be to balance the classes where clerics and tanks are slightly lower priority than traditional mmos while the other 6 archetypes have and elevated priority when making groups. This, however, is very difficult to design effectively.

delghinn

Neurath wrote: »

Most of us do not want blurred lines where all classes can tank DPS and heal. There would be no definition of roles and also no point in primary class choice. It is perfectly acceptable to have 8 styles of tank and 16 styles of support (not counting summoner).

Groups will be balanced and one tank can take 7 others in a group. The group size is bigger than other MMOs but not the biggest I've seen. Therefore, less tanks will be needed overall. They need to make the 8 tank classes unique and pleasant to play. Not double the tank options to 16 variations. Primary Archetype matters.

there's not enough interest in tanking and healing for there to only be one class to perform each of those roles. that's proven out numerous times and will be proven here as well if they go live with only one viable main tank and healer base class. some of the limitless sea dps classes must be able to perform those roles just as tank/support classes should also be able to dps.

not every class needs to be able to perform multiple archetype roles however every class shouldnt be locked to one either. And for the ones that can perform more than one of the trinity they need to be just as viable in both or all three roles than classes that only perform one.

classes should be structured around their archetype theme more so than justifying their existence by meeting one of the game mechanic trinity roles.

WMC51

Don't know what people are talking Bout. Wife and I always play tank healer combo and never have trouble finding grouos. Lol

People just don't like that everyone wants to DPS so its harder for them to find groups. Well they get to kill more in PVP and geinf exp easier killing faster. That's the trade off.

This game is obviously catering to the aging MMO crowd that doesn't want the game handed to them on a platter.

We.know how grouping works and how the trinity system works and we like it. Let us have our nostalgia. There's enough games for people who want their character to do all roles and have their quest node trails.
Just be happy you don't have to actually /chat to NPCs and figure out the key yours to get the correct reply. 8 tank and 8 healer combos is more than enough.

Child Item