noaani wrote: » wiplasher4 wrote: » (I am still in belief that land is the king item people want). This assumption is possibly the foundation upon which all other assumptions you have made are resting on. Since this assumption is wrong, anything resting on it probably is too. And youtubers are wrong all the time about this game.
wiplasher4 wrote: » (I am still in belief that land is the king item people want).
joeysmyles wrote: » noaani wrote: » wiplasher4 wrote: » (I am still in belief that land is the king item people want). This assumption is possibly the foundation upon which all other assumptions you have made are resting on. Since this assumption is wrong, anything resting on it probably is too. And youtubers are wrong all the time about this game. This comment
wiplasher4 wrote: » noaani wrote: » wiplasher4 wrote: » (I am still in belief that land is the king item people want). This assumption is possibly the foundation upon which all other assumptions you have made are resting on. Since this assumption is wrong, anything resting on it probably is too. And youtubers are wrong all the time about this game. That's not how that works. If land is not the king item people want that is fine.
You can't really disagree with someones opinion
noaani wrote: » When the reason for why people want to siege a node changes, the node they will want to siege will change. Nodes are core to this game, but nodes do not equal land. For the first week or two of the game, there may be sieges against neighbors - this is absolutely true. After that though, not likely. When you get a node cluster that has a level 6 node with several level 5 nodes around it, the citizens from the level 5 nodes can't siege the level 6. Should the level 6 node be defeated in a siege by someone else, the level 5 nodes could well then attempt to siege each other, but that would be a waste. If one node sieges another, they are then taking time and resources away from the leveling process. While they may siege the node they attack successfully, there will be another level 5 node that they aren't sieging, that is then able to carry on leveling unmolested, and beat both of the other two nodes to level 6, potentially then turning those nodes in to vassals. In this situation, it isn't a case of "you can't", but rather there are better things to spend your time on. You can't really disagree with someones opinion Sure I can, if your opinion is based on an assumption that is not true (as it is here), then I can tell you that your opinion is wrong, because the assumption is wrong. If you form an opinion based on a false assumption and then find out about that false assumption, you should then alter your opinion. If you don't, what value is your opinion?
noaani wrote: » wiplasher4 wrote: » noaani wrote: » wiplasher4 wrote: » (I am still in belief that land is the king item people want). This assumption is possibly the foundation upon which all other assumptions you have made are resting on. Since this assumption is wrong, anything resting on it probably is too. And youtubers are wrong all the time about this game. That's not how that works. If land is not the king item people want that is fine. When the reason for why people want to siege a node changes, the node they will want to siege will change. Nodes are core to this game, but nodes do not equal land. For the first week or two of the game, there may be sieges against neighbors - this is absolutely true. After that though, not likely. When you get a node cluster that has a level 6 node with several level 5 nodes around it, the citizens from the level 5 nodes can't siege the level 6. Should the level 6 node be defeated in a siege by someone else, the level 5 nodes could well then attempt to siege each other, but that would be a waste. If one node sieges another, they are then taking time and resources away from the leveling process. While they may siege the node they attack successfully, there will be another level 5 node that they aren't sieging, that is then able to carry on leveling unmolested, and beat both of the other two nodes to level 6, potentially then turning those nodes in to vassals. In this situation, it isn't a case of "you can't", but rather there are better things to spend your time on. You can't really disagree with someones opinion Sure I can, if your opinion is based on an assumption that is not true (as it is here), then I can tell you that your opinion is wrong, because the assumption is wrong. If you form an opinion based on a false assumption and then find out about that false assumption, you should then alter your opinion. If you don't, what value is your opinion?
So maybe I am confused about this whole system like you suggest, maybe you can help me out. I've heard multiple times from multiple people, including Steven himself, things along the lines of "A nearby node might be prohibiting your node from leveling, so you'll need to siege it down in order to keep growing." But that clearly is not possible given the system as it currently stands. So could you explain what's up with this inconsistency in design philosophy?
Node types have significantly different features, and larger nodes DO cover more land. That’s a basic fact.
Shaladoor wrote: » So maybe I am confused about this whole system like you suggest, maybe you can help me out. I've heard multiple times from multiple people, including Steven himself, things along the lines of "A nearby node might be prohibiting your node from leveling, so you'll need to siege it down in order to keep growing." But that clearly is not possible given the system as it currently stands. So could you explain what's up with this inconsistency in design philosophy? Well first, yes it is possible to siege a nearby node. Very possible. The only thing that's not possible (currently, at least), is for citizens of nodes to participate in sieges of parent nodes or affiliate nodes? Something like that. But in order to be a citizen, you need to both purchase housing within a node and also apply for citizenship in that node. Even if you own housing in a node, it doesn't automatically make you a citizen. And, you can only ever be a citizen of one node ("Only one citizenship may be declared per account, per server." However, if you declare citizenship, you will automatically be registered as a defender in any sieges of your node or your parents node (and maybe also other nodes in the zone of influence, not sure about that...). So it very much is possible to siege adjacent nodes. In fact, if you haven't registered as a citizen, you are welcome to participate in any siege and for either side of that siege. You are only limited if you are a citizen. And given how limited player housing is actually going to be within nodes, I think that only a very small percentage of the player base are going to be citizens. That will all depend on 1) available housing, 2) citizenship tickets, 3) players actually applying for citizenship given they are eligible. I will say that in order to even declare a siege, you have to go through a quest line to obtain a scroll to do so. And that, in itself, may present its own set of difficulties in sieging a node. Higher nodes will require more specialized scrolls that require more time and effort to acquire. I'm interested to see how all of that pans out. If you really want to establish your node as the dominant node early on, then siege early and siege often. The longer the nodes around you have to level, the more prepared they will be for a future siege. You can't siege a node until it is at least level 3, but if you really want to dominate an area, siege any surrounding areas quickly. It will reset those nodes to 0, give you plunder to fund your node, will help ensure your node doesn't get cockblocked from leveling up further, and will make your node more appealing to players in the region. Node types have significantly different features, and larger nodes DO cover more land. That’s a basic fact. I think it is important to point out that the basic geographic area of a node doesn't increase, but rather its zone of influence is what increases. In the Wiki for 'Zone of Influence', "Every node is given purview over a predefined geographic area called a Zone of influence (ZOI)". As I understand, when a node levels up and makes a vassal of a nearby neighboring node, then the zone of influence (ZOI) of the parent node increases by extending as far as the ZOI of the vassal(s) it has acquired. The vassals still have their own ZOI, but now their ZOI is added to the ZOI of the parent. The vassals also have the opportunity to make further vassals of their own, and when that happens then the ZOI of the vassal is increased which also increases the ZOI of its parent node. In that way, the ZOI of the largest nodes can extend quite a measurable distance.
Shaladoor wrote: » So it very much is possible to siege adjacent nodes. In fact, if you haven't registered as a citizen, you are welcome to participate in any siege and for either side of that siege. If you really want to establish your node as the dominant node early on, then siege early and siege often. You can't siege a node until it is at least level 3, but if you really want to dominate an area, siege any surrounding areas quickly.
Caeryl wrote: » It makes perfect sense that differing node types will want to siege their parents of a different type. Of course they would fight with and race their neighbors so their preferred node type reach metro level after a successful siege.
RahkstarRPG wrote: » Shaladoor wrote: » So it very much is possible to siege adjacent nodes. In fact, if you haven't registered as a citizen, you are welcome to participate in any siege and for either side of that siege. If you really want to establish your node as the dominant node early on, then siege early and siege often. You can't siege a node until it is at least level 3, but if you really want to dominate an area, siege any surrounding areas quickly. I don’t really understand how you can confidently say “you can siege nearby nodes” when you are more likely than not to be in the ZoI of any nearby nodes that are a higher level than you, thus locking you out. Or how you say “siege early and often,” then go on to describe how difficult initiating a siege can be. As soon as your neighboring node hits level 3, unless you siege them down before they hit 4 and your node follows to 3 and people start becoming citizens, you’re likely to never get the chance. And I don’t really see a siege happening like that in the first weeks of the game. And you say “just don’t be citizens” casually, but what if the citizens of a child node don’t want to be part of their parent node? They have to sell (and subsequently lose) their housing in order to continue growing their node? What’s the point? If anything, that’s going to cause multiple accounts to be rampant in order to save houses so your main can siege unabated. It just doesn’t really make sense. The way I see this system shaking down is child nodes making deals with foreign metros to siege their parent metro, with the offending child node promising to take as many spots in the siege defense as possible in order to potentially sabotage the siege. While an interesting gameplay angle in its own right, I don’t really think that’s what we’re going for here.
Citizenship grants a number of benefits.[4] Titles. Reputation. Honor. Loyalty. Merit. Participation in the node’s government (voting or running for office).
Caeryl wrote: » I may be misunderstanding how ZOI's work, which is fully possible. I understand it like this: Take a chessboard. It's an 8x8 grid with 64 spaces. A level 0 node has no infrastructure, a level 1 node would encompass a 1x1 area, a level 2 nodes infrastructure might encompass a 2x2 area, and so on. The village turns into a town, which turns into a city, which turns into a metropolis which may end up taking up 6x6 of the board with only the very outer edge of the chessboard unoccupied. The inner 6x6 area is 36 squares of the entire 64 square board, which would be a massive sprawling Metropolis taking up most of the node. It's just an analogy to explain how I view the relationship between nodes, their size, and their ZOI. The geographical region of the node never changes (it's always a 8x8 chessboard), but the city size changes as the node levels and allows for more plots of land, housing, etc. And of course as a node levels up, it's ZOI increases by turning surrounding nodes into vassals, which helps with the economy through taxes, and helps with growing the nodes XP by getting XP from vassals, and so forth. That's how I see it all working, but again, I'm not 100% sure that's how it is meant to function, or how it will function at all.
noaani wrote: » If you are participating in a siege against a node in the same cluster as yourself, you are sieging friends. This will happen at times, but it will not be common. What will be more common than this is the leadership (mayors and guild leaders) in these clusters working together, rather than working against each other.
wiplasher4 wrote: » Haven't we come to the conclusion that you can't do that? I might have missed something though.
Shaladoor wrote: » Here's a GIF I've created that models the first 365 days of a node system. It's just a model, so take it with a grain of salt. I've only spent 2 days on it, but it's working so far. 1. Node 1's appear in day 1 2. Node 2's appear in day 2 3. Node 3's appear in day 3 4. Node 4's appear in day 12 5. Node 5's appear in day 34 6. Node 6's appear in day 73 The model also keeps track of zone of influence, but it doesn't show that. There is an XP system behind the scenes though, and excess XP is given to parent nodes, as the game suggests it should (although at a reduced rate). Anyways, I like how the distribution of nodes 1-5 stays fairly even. Lots of node 0's, which would suggest plenty of places for players to go gathering resources. And in this particular model, in a year, a level 6 node is only ever destroyed twice. I put in a very small chance each day for nodes level 3 and above to "blow up", and that chance gets lower as the node grows. I think it's also clear that as time goes on, the rate at which nodes change slows down. I think this was always expected, but it's good to actually see it. Of course, throw players into the system and all chaos may ensue. Again, it's not perfect! Just a model! But it's fun to watch. I think I'm going to also create another grid, but the next one will track ZOI regions for nodes. I think that would be fun to see evolve over time.
Shaladoor wrote: » I meant to post this like 2 hours ago, but got distracted. I'll post this first and then make another post. I may be misunderstanding how ZOI's work, which is fully possible. I understand it like this: Take a chessboard. It's an 8x8 grid with 64 spaces. A level 0 node has no infrastructure, a level 1 node would encompass a 1x1 area, a level 2 nodes infrastructure might encompass a 2x2 area, and so on. The village turns into a town, which turns into a city, which turns into a metropolis which may end up taking up 6x6 of the board with only the very outer edge of the chessboard unoccupied. The inner 6x6 area is 36 squares of the entire 64 square board, which would be a massive sprawling Metropolis taking up most of the node. It's just an analogy to explain how I view the relationship between nodes, their size, and their ZOI. The geographical region of the node never changes (it's always a 8x8 chessboard), but the city size changes as the node levels and allows for more plots of land, housing, etc. And of course as a node levels up, it's ZOI increases by turning surrounding nodes into vassals, which helps with the economy through taxes, and helps with growing the nodes XP by getting XP from vassals, and so forth. That's how I see it all working, but again, I'm not 100% sure that's how it is meant to function, or how it will function at all.
Caeryl wrote: » The potential size of a node’s ZOI is static, but the actual size of its ZOI at any given time is dependent on its level. Encompassing vassals doesn’t actually increase that node’s ZOI, it will simply siphon off extra exp gathered in the ZOIs of its vassals after those vassals have maxed out on exp.
