Phoe and Nix or: How to bring up concerns about sexist tropes in AoC?

Hey guys, dear moderators,

in the yesterdays development update, Phoe and Nix were presented. As they are like archetypes of sexist tropes of a 10 year old debate, I would like to start a discussion, how the development of a game can unwillingly lead into "othering" women and if AoC will actively prevent this. (i.E. with making a male character, and then marking the female version with a decorative ribbon, Mrs. Packman incoming! or showing game footage 90% of the time with male characters, without bad intent).

In my post I probably would point to research, that shows how easy product development can lead into "othering" of groups and re-narrate, for example, sexist storytelling.

As my post about the dangers of carefree mixing race and culture was marked as "political", it seems, that I have to ask on a more abstract level, to understand the forum rules. In which way can I raise concerns, if I (think to) spot sexist or racist tropes used in AoC without violating the forum rules?

This is a honest question, as there are often big cultural differences in the understanding of rules and I don't want to put an hour or more work in a post, that then is deleted by a moderator in 5 seconds. I hope to get a serious answer, as in my understanding (and I do this for a living as a researcher) showing racist or sexist tropes and link them to a political view is not already politics. It is a hint, that a "politic-free" position, may not be as apolitical as it seems on the first look.

I ask this on this forum, because a clearification may help not only me to avoid breaking the rules and may lead into less work for the moderators in the future. :-)

Have a nice weekend and stay healthy, everybody!

Haraxa

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Comments

Samson1

wArchAngel

And how are the poor bird-mascots are tieing into all the non-sense that doesnt belong in a game?
They literaly just posted 10 discord emotes, with no backstory or any side intentions whatsoever besides them together compiling the signature of Ashes which is, well, a Phoe-nix.

Samson1

I think the emotes are great.

wArchAngel

They absolutely are.

Vhaeyne

Let art be art.

Noaani

Haraxa wrote: »

showing game footage 90% of the time with male characters, without bad intent.

If the streams are showing in game play focused on Stevens character, why would you expect anything other than a male character?

If he played as a female character, would that not be gender appropriation?

Vhaeyne

noaani wrote: »

Haraxa wrote: »

showing game footage 90% of the time with male characters, without bad intent.

If the streams are showing in game play focused on Stevens character, why would you expect anything other than a male character?

If he played as a female character, would that not be gender appropriation?

Still not convinced this post is not a troll? Do people even really think like this? Is "gender appropriation" something people think is real?

Jubilum

What? Did I miss something? I'm confused. Was the OP asking a question or making a statement, or simply venting?

Caeryl

Vhaeyne wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Haraxa wrote: »

showing game footage 90% of the time with male characters, without bad intent.

If the streams are showing in game play focused on Stevens character, why would you expect anything other than a male character?

If he played as a female character, would that not be gender appropriation?

Still not convinced this post is not a troll? Do people even really think like this? Is "gender appropriation" something people think is real?

There are some people who think it’s offensive to be gay (and I don’t mean on right-wing side either)

As for the topic at hand, I think it’s literally a few harmless emotes. Just take a look at the cosmetics offered to see the differences you can expect from male vs female gear models. Minor form adjustments for body shapes, otherwise minimal or no changes.

Female dwarves will also proudly feature some decorative beard options.

Sure it’s good to be aware of potential alienating behavior, but sometimes it’s really just an emote and it ain’t that deep.

That said, I think the bow looks dumb and would rather see Nix have galaxy coloration.

Actually, which one is Phe and which one is Nix anyway?

LoveSongBB

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/733731808566444072.png?v=1

arsnn

I think it’s hard to discuss anything about sexism in such forums, people will immediately put you into the „annyoing sjw“ segment. But tbh with some of your claims it seems you are fine with that. If you had genuine interest in discussing this topic, a more rational and less stigmatized stance would have done a better service for that.
Imo you are „othering“ developers

Volgaire

This is over the emotes right? lmao what a joke, you must have nothing better to do.

Wandering Mist

Let me ask you a question OP. You know those silhouettes they use to distinguish the male and female toilets, with the male being a normal person and the female wearing a dress. Do you have the same reaction to that as you do here with regards to sexist tropes? After all, there are plenty of men who wear dresses regularly and plenty of women who hate dresses.

men-and-women-stick-figures-free-download-best-men-and-women-bathroom-boy-figure-png-2000_1845.png

men-and-women-stick-figures-free-download-best-men-and-women-bathroom-boy-figure-png-2000_1845.png

Nagash

I'm not even sure what you are referring too

Caeryl

Nagash wrote: »

I'm not even sure what you are referring too

Some phoenix themed Twitch/Discord (?) emotes they showcased on the stream a couple days ago. Phoe and Nix, one has a bow in its feathers

Nagash

Caeryl wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

I'm not even sure what you are referring too

Some phoenix themed Twitch/Discord (?) emotes they showcased on the stream a couple days ago. Phoe and Nix, one has a bow in its feathers

you mean the mascots? Wow

nidriks

Maybe we just accept that Ashes is a game, get on with enjoying the ride and forget about "sexist tropes".

The simple fact of the matter is no designer is going out of their way to introduce "sexist tropes". So why can't we just leave politics for elsewhere?

Damokles

I... I am not sure how I am supposed to react to this post....
I mean.... It is nice of them to implement both genders, and it is pretty hard to differentiate between genders for people concerning bird species.
People sometimes believe to see things that are not really there to push their own agendas i suppose...

Beor

people these days..omg

Drag13

@Haraxa (OP)

Your first concern about the emotes, they were advertised as brother and sister Phe & Nix(Phoe-nix... HA!). Phe, the responsible older brother, trying to reign in Nix, his unruly younger sister. This is harmlessly advertised in my opinion.

The gameplay footage generally involves female characters as well. Watch the first 15 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkwaYLOuw2s Margaret, the community manager, frequently appears in these gameplay reveals. She usually has a female avatar, which is clothed very tastefully, and this leads me to believe we are fine on this topic (for now at least).

1Q)"As my post about the dangers of carefree mixing race and culture was marked as "political", it seems, that I have to ask on a more abstract level, to understand the forum rules. In which way can I raise concerns, if I (think to) spot sexist or racist tropes used in AoC without violating the forum rules?"

1A) This statement/question is bizarre, what are your concerns? Do you care about "the dangers of carefree mixing race and culture"? If so, please elaborate.

2Q) "This is a honest question, as there are often big cultural differences in the understanding of rules and I don't want to put an hour or more work in a post, that then is deleted by a moderator in 5 seconds. I hope to get a serious answer, as in my understanding (and I do this for a living as a researcher) showing racist or sexist tropes and link them to a political view is not already politics. It is a hint, that a "politic-free" position, may not be as apolitical as it seems on the first look."

2A) Again, this statement/question is bizarre. You SEEM (SEEM, no assumptions from me) concerned about cultural differences and racist and sexist tropes that intrepid could be implementing into their game, whether they are conscious of it or not. This needs clarity.

Again I am not assuming anything of you, but your post is written and understood poorly. More direct questions with supporting examples would be appreciated. If you are concerned about sexist tropes, such as the "Full Plate Female" and she has two straps of leather across her chest, then that is what you need to ask.

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