DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Grimzar wrote: »

And there always will be "the best build" and many will follow meta.

This right here is blatantly not true.

The more complex a game is, the less true the statement here becomes.

When you start adding variables like support classes, there will be a build to almost every class that is able to make much better use of a given support class, but if you don't have that support class in your group then the build is far less worthwhile.

Or there could be a specific augment from being in a matron guild of a specific type of metropolis - getting this augment may well mean that the optimal build for your class changes drastically.

Now, one statement that will always be true is that there will always be a single best build for each specific set of circumstances. If this were the statement that people were making, I'd fully agree with them. However, people say there is a best build for each class - a statement which is only ever true in one MMO on the market (and even then, there are items that alter the best build for some classes).

I prefer environment where you play something that feels the best not something that IS the best cause it's optimal. Learning by trials and errors not by making excels sheets to break things to smallest pieces.

Cool, have at it as far as I am concerned.

The system I have been arguing for since the start of the year is for a combat tracker built in to the guild perk system, which only works on members of the specific guild. This means that if you don't want a combat tracker, you don't have to have one - and unless you join a guild that values a combat tracker (which if you are against them, you won't), then no one will be able to track your combat. Thus, you can play the game in perfect ignorant bliss - which again, have at it as far as I am concerned.

I don't now even why we still debating about it since there will be NO DPS METES.

Oh, there will be combat trackers for Ashes.

This is a point that even Steven will concede. The best you'll get from his is what he has already said "I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers."

I am currently following two groups that have been developing combat trackers for Ashes since last year.

Damokles

Throwing my hat into the discussion once more:
I think that A "damage meter" should only be accessible for raid or guild leaders AFTER a raid or dungeon fight. It should show how many people were hit by AoE's, how much healing was done and who interrupted what how many times (to see who did and did not keep to the plan)

After leading a mythic and heroic raid for around 5 years I can tell you that it is a major help for raid leaders and lieutenants to weed out weaker players, which you can then help.
I know that some people dont use it for the right reason, but it also helps out showing who simply does not enough work. In higher difficulties you just cant carry dead weight sometimes. Often times DPS meter have shown that fact to the person themselves and they readily left the raid after seing that fact.

Another way to implement it would be to make it a tool that only pops up if you hit specific training dolls that you can place in your freehold, or that military nodes can build on training fields inside of the city.

Grimzar

noaani wrote: »

Grimzar wrote: »

And there always will be "the best build" and many will follow meta.

This right here is blatantly not true.

The more complex a game is, the less true the statement here becomes.

oh I didn't mean one and only true "best build" but more like you describe below.

noaani wrote: »

Now, one statement that will always be true is that there will always be a single best build for each specific set of circumstances.

noaani wrote: »

optimal build

hate it already

noaani wrote: »

Thus, you can play the game in perfect ignorant bliss - which again, have at it as far as I am concerned.

Man this is just different approach to making best of your class. You like it simple, straight forward. 10 is more than 5, ok I am doing better then. Believe me I will tweak my build base on my performance and how it feel to play it, not base on some meters and statistics

and I end up with something, maybe not OPTIMAL, but satisfying and fun for ME to play.
Having a meter that tells me, my build is doing 10% less damage than optimal one, will just rip off my enjoyment.

noaani wrote: »

I am currently following two groups that have been developing combat trackers for Ashes since last year.

cool, whatever boost your endorphins, but I hope it will be bannable sooner or later

peace.

DaveMLG

Been playing wow for few years and have always hated how players judged the others based on their damage performance. It creates an unecessary toxicity and for that I hope that the damage meter will never make it into Ashes of Creation.

ariatras

GazerGrazer wrote: »

Increasing my DPS is basically where I get all my enjoyment out of PvE encounters. Does anyone else feel this way?

Some might, many others do not. I am forced to question though. If that is what gives you enjoyment. What sort of games did you play? If the proverbial d**k measuring contest is what makes things fun. It must mean the game design really is quite bad. I've never quite understood it either.

I mean topping the meters releases dopamine in many a brain, including mine. But my items might be a lot better. I might have gotten procs at the right moments in fights. Like when I do not have to move. And it just gets more and more complex that the only way to properly measure the skill component is to attack a target dummy, naked, with someone who has the exact same point allocation.

I'd also point out, that dps meters and the like, are one of the components that make classes all samey. A meta will be a lot harder to figure out if you don't have add-ons keeping track. Meaning people will pick what they enjoy a lot more, until a meta forms. And when that happens, you can as a developer make changes again and make them start from scratch.

The 64 class combinations are a big feature, not quite node system level. But a big feature nonetheless. You'd shoot yourself in the foot as a dev if you'd make it super easy for min-maxers. Because once the optimal builds are found out. People will almost be forced to play it. It's what we see in games like WoW too.

Mork

God bless for no dps meters.
Competitive players will be competitive anyways, don't think there is a need for this.
People focus more on colored rows then their own gameplay. And if this gets implemented its not a case of "if you don't like it, don't use it", its like gearscore and "link achievment", it becomes a mandatory part of the game.

Noaani

Grimzar wrote: »

hate it already

The thing with this is that since circumstances change far more often than respecs will, no one is able to tell you what the over all optimal build for you is other than you - and you can use what ever criteria you want for deciding what is optimal (including how to play).

The more builds that there are for a class that are viable, the less other players are able to say anything at all about your build.

Put another way, the more complex the game is, the more freedom you have with your build being accepted.

When you look at a game like WoW, it is the simplest MMO on the market, and also the MMO with the least flexibility in terms of what players were willing to accept in terms of build. Look at a game like Path of Exile (not strictly an MMO, but a complex character building system in an online game) and there are as many variations as to what an acceptable build in that game is as there are players in that game.

Again, this is a good thing, as it means you can play your class how you want - as long as it is mostly effective (no one is going to care about 5% of a groups DPS in a game without a dungeon finder - and 5% of the groups DPS is 30% of your DPS).

So again, with complexity, you get choice without complaint. With simplicity, you get pigeon holed without any say. A combat tracker has absolutely no say in either situaiton.

cool, whatever boost your endorphins, but I hope it will be bannable sooner or later

I think you are getting me confised with a 12 year old.

I don't use a combat tracker to track my DPS, I use it to track my guilds progress. I use it to find bugs in the game that developers miss. I use it to help people that don't know how it works to improve when they ask me to.

If your opinion of a combat tracker is as you are making it out to be, then I have to say that I am of the opinion that you do not know the value of a combat tracker.

As to you hoping the become a bannable offence, honestly, that doesn't bother me.

If they are, I simply won't openly discuss the fact that I will be using one, knowing full well that Intrepid won't be able to see any use of one on my computer. So either way, I know full well I will not get banned for it.

Noaani

ariatras wrote: »

I mean topping the meters releases dopamine in many a brain, including mine. But my items might be a lot better. I might have gotten procs at the right moments in fights. Like when I do not have to move. And it just gets more and more complex that the only way to properly measure the skill component is to attack a target dummy, naked, with someone who has the exact same point allocation.

If you are comparing one player against another on one night, you are doing combat trackers wrong.

Compare the same player in the group/raid in the same zone across multiple months.

The amount of people that are against combat trackers and then go on to post how they use them so poorly is actually astounding.

I mean, I hate trying to use a screwdriver to get a nail in a piece of wood too. Doesn't mean I think all screwdrivers should be thrown out though.

Dracus

Everyone needs to relax. Someone will figure out a way to parse the data and come up with a way to parse to evaluate dps, healing and buff uptimes (and/or debuff uptime), and this is not a bad thing

And with meta classes....hmm this game seems to be more inclined towards node sieges and castle sieges. If there is a niche or role for each class in pvp, well, every class will be needed or desired in the siege. .

Oh and in PvP it is not like you need a damage meter to know if you know your class or gauge your pvp effectiveness.

Valento92

Dear god this discussion about DPS meters is really exhausting. I just hope Steven has a good idea to replace meters so that there isn't the need for them because I too believe that it does more harm than benefits considering the social side (and well that's the most important side) of an MMO.

Debase

I don't have much concern about there not being a damage meter. I do think, however, that if certain PVE encounters have built in dps checks (enrage timers, etc), it will be very frustrating for guilds and groups to figure out where their weaknesses are. I'm sure the community will find a way to discern this on their own... time to kill certain things, etc.

Grimzar

noaani wrote: »

I don't use a combat tracker to track my DPS

well topic is about damage meter not on some fancy combat trackers (whatever they do). If you have tool to collect data (more than just dps) and make something out of it. Cool. Let it be Website loading data from AoC API. But still I don't know why you have to have all these charts, excels and stuff to help someone how to be better in game? Without practice no one will get better, and saying someone is under performing cause numbers says so may discourage many people.

Maybe I don't rly get it because for me game is a game, a time to relax and have some fun with friends, not another job to analyze stuff how to be "optimal" in virtual world.

Juk KO

GazerGrazer wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

You won't gear your character from being AFK in a Raid. You would either have to craft your own gear or be hopeful the crafters aren't aware you're an AFKer. What incentive is there to arm an AFKer? I'd charge AFKers very high prices if they expect to be carried by my Raid Teams or have Items crafted for them.

I was exaggerating. I'll avoid all the mechanics. I'll DPS the boss to an extent. All while I watch Netflix or talk to my friends. Steven Sharif has stated many times there needs to be winners and losers, but it seems this is another game that will try to hide who the losers are.

Not being allowed to join a group because your DPS is low should motivate you to increase your DPS. It'll allow you to communicate with players who are performing better than you and ask for advice. Yes, it allows the players who earned the bragging rights the right to brag, but what is that bad? Why is competition bad? It's only at the very high end (WoW's "Cutting Edge") environment, where players get benched for low DPS. In most cases, you're just talking shit to your friends about how you out performed them, or they out performed you. Friendly competition is good, and important, especially for MMOs. The damage meter is a good friendly competition, and should be in the game.

You act like you know how raiding in this game is going to pan out. 80% of this content is open world. Which includes dungeons and raids. No group finder either.

"80% of the content that will exist in Ashes of Creation is open-world and there's a specific reason for that. So because of the way that friendships and or enemies are forged in the game and people have the opportunity to create their own friends or foes. We want that to play out from a contesting standpoint as well. So a lot of these hunting grounds or raid bosses that people are going to have opportunities to kill, they're going to be essentially contested potentially by your your enemies that you've created in the game or you can work together to create alliances in order to defend those contested zones."

I wanna watch you call someone shit and exclude him from youre group. Then he recruits his own 40 man and wipes youre group and steals youre boss kill. Sounds like some sweet karma brewing and the game isn't even out yet.

Things like this are possible in this game. So min/max guilds or people on leaderboards are gonna get hella griefed.

I personally prefer no dps meter. Someone can have top dps but still fuck up the raid. It segregates everything in the game into tier lists and meta's faster then without it. I prefer build variety and/or diversity over having perfect speed run raids.

So i hope the Devs for AoC build the raids in such a way that you cant have them on farm. To prevent power scaling moments where you complete the raid once and now that raid is on farm because of youre new gear. Make the raid gear shit while doing that particular raid so you don't necessarily progress even after completing that raid with youre guild. Like if you gotta do it again youre not just overpowered now and gotta try again... but you got some awesome gear that can now assist you in all aspect outside of that raid... but if youre gear eventually breaks, you have to do that raid again to repair it thus going through that trail again. technically since there is 5 metros you got 5 raids. so you could rotate the raids once you complete one and go to the next but you gotta travel and also hope another group isnt there. lots of variables since items have durability.

BlackBrony

It would be cool if we could also have some other stuff to save us time:

- I'd love to have an Event tracker so I can sorta know when a boss is about to do certain mechanic, it would save us a lot of time and trouble
- Resource tracker, so I can put where the gatherable nodes usually spawn. This way we won't waste time running around
- Player tracker. Something that let's us know when to cleanse a player

All of this would make gameplay better imo and improve everyone's performance.

Songcaller

That is the issue with API modifications, people do not know when they overstep the mark. There should be no API Contamination at all, and, third party applications could see you banned.

Some say IS won't be aware, some say they will ignore IS and do it anyway, some people have no common sense.

Nate8282

I'm fine with not having a damage meter or addons, but I do agree in the sense that I wish there were a basic way of knowing how well I and others are doing.

If my raid can't kill a boss and we wipe 50 times all because of a bad healer and a bad DPS how are we supposed to know that? How am I supposed to know that I suck? To me this isn't about min-maxing, it's about being good enough to accomplish my goals.

Yuyukoyay

From what I understand there is still a way to tell how much hp they have left, but just not the exact amount. This is fine. WoW used to be like this in vanilla. You couldn't see their buffs either. It's really not that bad even from a hardcore standpoint.

Ziu

I’m against damage meters mainly because it breeds a lot of negativity and elitism. Even players who aren’t judge mental normally become judge mental when a damage meter is introduced.
I think there’s too many classes and specialization to really warrant a damage meter. You shouldn’t be able to compare them all with numbers.
You should be able to have fun and feel how much damage you’re doing without a meter.
If there’s no damage meter then there will be much more variety

Juvens

Dmg meter, combat tracker and similar tools

Even in a game like AoC, which seems to become more intricate than many other games, there will be certain meta's. And they will be figured out sooner or later, but much faster and more concrete if the numbers behind the scenes become clear as day. There is nothing wrong in seeking the meta, but rather how it's done that bothers me. In my experience it's the road to perfection that is fun, not the goal itself.

I think one of the most important aspects of an rpg is to create an illusion to make a player feel immersed, challanged and a sense of discovery. To tear that blanket away and get to know the mechanics and numbers behind the scenes only help to break that illusion. Rather than trying and failing through experience, you can step away from the intended gameplay to beat it. While math can be fun and all, having hidden mechanics and numbers isn't always a bad thing.

I feel very competative myself and if I lose to someone I will do everything in my power to find out why. But I would love to have a good game were I can't just read the answer, or have a bunch of addons to guide me. It feels a bit like cheating and being told what to do next. But if they are available then without them you create a disadvantage for yourself if not used. My experience is that a game becomes trivial and boring very fast if you already know the answer of how to win.

With dmg meter, combat tracker and similar tools you get the numbers black on white, without them you only get opinions which will fuel discussions, diversity and experimentation. Would it be so bad if we never figure out the absolute meta to everything?

I don't think you need addons or third party programs to be able to complete or break a game if it's possible. And I trust the devs will correct their mistakes if they occur. And if we were to have one boss that takes months or even years to complete, would it be so bad? The dragon in the mountain that no one can slay. I like the sound of that.

Adlehyde

BlackBrony wrote: »

It would be cool if we could also have some other stuff to save us time:

- I'd love to have an Event tracker so I can sorta know when a boss is about to do certain mechanic, it would save us a lot of time and trouble
- Resource tracker, so I can put where the gatherable nodes usually spawn. This way we won't waste time running around
- Player tracker. Something that let's us know when to cleanse a player

All of this would make gameplay better imo and improve everyone's performance.

I hope that's sarcasm, because that's gonna be a hard pass. Every one of those things is. "how can the game play itself a little bit more for me

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