Serious concern/question about being a bad guy

*Since this thread is getting more attention and people know me from other games and are now wanting to join in the conversation then I will amend my opener here but still keep the original text for posterity sake as you read and catch up.

This thread wants to focus on in-game mechanics that already exist that will allow for good guys to choose to partake in a risk/reward situation and those bad guys that are the potential punishment waiting for them. This game offers much potential for discussion and that is all we want is an open discussion for ways to be bad, and no this thread is not promoting the killing of unwilling participants. Our version of pvp is the literal definition of player vs player on a more small scale version outside from guild/city raids. We are discussing a way for good guy players to seek risk and how bad guy players can be the counterpart*

I want to start this off by saying that I understand how taboo pvp is to a large portion of players. Most people want great story arc progression and maybe others are interested in pvp just enough for the rewards, achievements, gear etc. I would like to present another type of player, not necessarily a roleplay type person but a person who wants to be a bad guy. I want to know how this game will appeal to those of us who aren't looking for dungeon glory, who don't have time for world politics or a sense of life long goals... I want to discuss the person who likes being the bad guy, the guy who was raised with nothing given to them, who learned that the only way to get by is to take it from others and to inflict a little pain so others know how he/she feels.

I have watched some videos and read some articles/posts and I do feel like I have an entry-level understanding of this game's open-world pvp structure, but I feel like it is a far more punishing system, then it is a way to play the game. As stated above, I get that the vast majority of people aren't going to be interested in this but there are plenty of people who like being the bad guy and every good story or hero needs a bad guy. This game has the bounty hunter system and some guild and zone pvp but I have yet to see a full break down of actual pvp focused gameplay.

I don't want to just be a griefing player killer, but I do want some incentive to play a bad character that keeps the fancy lads and goody players on their toes. So far I see more in=game mechanics dedicated to punishing these types of actions and only allowing just a tiny taste of the bad life, I don't see anything that rewards players for taking this path. This game gives you religious arcs that lead to exclusive items, titles and even new skill augments. This game allows a player to build a restaurant in popular hunting areas to benefit the dedication of their time to crafting delicious food and planning a location to be the best source of buffs in that area but what about the bad guys?

Is there really no underground sub-faction that has rewards certain individuals for throwing a wrench into something? A reverse bounty system? An unholy religion that promotes being a bad guy? I mean look at some of the possible skill combos necromancer, trickster, assassin, charlatan, shadow lord... This game provides the bad guy prototypes but doesn't embrace the full potential? Please please please tell me that with all the love put into this game and all the "doing better than other mmos" doesn't mean that you have written off the classic villain player character in light of trying to making people a completely safe and comfortable feeling.

I know a lot of the devs in this game mention older mmo games as inspiration so I am sure you guys remember Ultima Online? You had a full on red player system that basically turned you into a different type of player. Will this game have something like this or is it only that internal system that punishes you for being bad by basically making you completely useless after so long so that you are no longer a threat to even a level 1 critter.

Can someone please link or explain something related to my questions/concerns? I would obviously love to hear from a dev or tester.

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2for4Sausag3ggMcMuff

@FuryBladeborne where did he say a corruption system should be married with a reward system?

Beeper

Raoul9753 wrote: »

to be a “bad guy“ you need an unwilling victim

I have no real interest in engaging in the delusions going on in this thread, but this sums up how I feel about the whole thing.

Copperfield

people seems to be forgetting that that bounty hunters are being implemented into the game.

Everyone keeps telling that corruption should not be rewarded and only be punished..

bounty hunters get rewarded... so should corrupted players in a mild form..

Example:

A corrupted player should get some reward by killing a bounty hunter imo..

if none goes corrupted, the bounty system will not work.

2for4Sausag3ggMcMuff

Bearheart wrote: »

Raoul9753 wrote: »

to be a “bad guy“ you need an unwilling victim

I have no real interest in engaging in the delusions going on in this thread, but

Which is it? Are you holier than us or aren't ya? ;D

Kohl

jubilum wrote: »

Kohl wrote: »

I'm still hopeful that one day I'll enter a guild that's dedicated to flagging every other guild for war, so we'll be able to go around the whole corruption bs that's dampening the skills until you can't fight at all. lol.

OMG, IS please put a stop to this immediately. Eve Online redux. This is the most abused system in Eve, their are a handful of corporations that this is all they do. They war dec. 1000's of smaller corps every week, they even war dec large null sec. corps who very rarely even enter high sec just for a target rich environment. Then they sit at choke point jump gates to kill everyone that passes thru. If you're lucky enough to pass thru the gate and not be red to them, expect to be war dec'ed next week. Eve has tried several things to cut down this cheese of the system with very litt;e success. The only way to control the above mentality is to allow a guild to war dec one maybe two other guilds at a time.

If something like this pops up on a server it will be empty in two weeks, it is so effective in Eve because there is no option to move to another server. You have two choices if you are small, new players corp., either log out until the war dec ends or sit in a station for the duration.

Another option is, dont force players into forming such guilds in first place.
Tsk. I sound like a terrorist.

Corrupted players suffer plenty as is without dampening their skills to make them easy to kill.

FuryBladeborne

2for4Sausag3ggMcMuff wrote: »

@FuryBladeborne where did he say a corruption system should be married with a reward system?

Sorry, there is actually multiple related posts being referred to. That is the original poster. In the OP, one of the suggestions made was to have bounty hunters drop gear if killed by a corrupted player they are hunting. This is essentially a reward system for corruption. It encourages players to kill green names, get corruption and trap bounty hunters to collect their gear. A corrupted teaming with their guild to ambush a bounty hunter is one option that comes to mind.

Anyway, I pointed out that a reward system is unlikely to be added to the corruption system, he responded, and the post that you responded to was my further response.

FuryBladeborne

Copperfield wrote: »

people seems to be forgetting that that bounty hunters are being implemented into the game.

Everyone keeps telling that corruption should not be rewarded and only be punished..

bounty hunters get rewarded... so should corrupted players in a mild form..

Example:

A corrupted player should get some reward by killing a bounty hunter imo..

if none goes corrupted, the bounty system will not work.

People will become corrupted simply because they want to PK. If you don't already know this, then browse through this thread. There are many people describing how much they want to be corrupted. The bounty hunter option is part of the system in place to keep these people in check so that they don't wreck the game for everyone else.

Frosty_Tips

I've seen Steven say that the game will be able to track a great many things and provides for things like leader boards and achievement titles. The examples given on wiki is a title like server first for a world boss. But it would be a great add for the game to have hundreds of titles for the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
Example titles that your character can get stuck with and/or be proud to have (a title can be a bad thing too!)

Specifically kills that are Corruption causing, lawful kills would not count!
- Cowardly or Pathetic = Kill ## people who are a level 80% below yours in a week (i set a time limit such a week because if it's a never ending running tally then most any 10 year veteran would have this title eventually, but if you do this many in 1 week then clearly you are a douche bag worthy of this title, and the title is stuck above your head for all to see even when your shopping in town, all will know your shame! You can't toggle the title off!)
- Dishonorable = Kill ## people who are a level 40% below yours in a week
- Annoying = Kill ## Merchant/Vendor NPCs in a week
The above would be title most would hate having shown above their name, but tough, you earned it and now you dont have the option to turn off the title, for a set time or until maybe you do a quest to clean yourself you will walk around as "Drago the Pathetic" and everyone will know you got that title by ganking noobs.
- Malicious = Kill ## of player mounts (horses, turtles, stuffington, etc) in a week
- Outcast = Join and leave ## of Nodes or Guilds in a month

Some title are more elite, and require both a hgh level of karma as well as high fame, i.e. it's easy to be "bad" but to be "evil" means killing a whole nation. Or it's easy to get the title "Kind" but to be "Angelic" means saving a world from a demon lord.
- Glorious = During the life of your character be a general for ### successful node sieges
- Dread Lord = During the life of your character complete ### religious based quests that were defined as "evil" types of quests, kill this NPC, kill this religious leader, complete a quest to find and destroy a mythic ruby that held in it the power and love of the goddess of nature... etc, it would be a long list with high requirements.
- Wicked = Destroy ### of relgious artifacts that are catagorized as "good" religions
- Angelic = During the life of your character complete ### religious based quests that the devs have defined as good.
- Dark or Demon Lord = As a monster during a Monster Coin Event kill ### people

And of course we need lots of good titles:
- Kind = Complete ## bulletin board tasks in a week that involves saving animals
- Upstanding = Donate ### gold/embers to a religion or node construction project in a week
- Industrious = Complete ## construction projects at your node and Freehold
- Distinguished Lord = Complete a large number of multiple different types of Node objectives, donating to religions, providing mats in constructon projects, complete merchant quests, voting (more people vote when there's rewards for doing it, real life proves that!)
- Renaissance man or lady = Master multiple trade skills
- Socialite = Talk to ### different NPCs in multiple different Nodes

Man this is fun, I could go on for hours making up titles and requirements.
Oh we should even have polls in our node for titles to give to our node Mayor, the titles could be ones pre-picked by the devs to avoid non RP friendly titles. But perhaps once a month the Mayor has a poll automatically generated at the town hall that asks citizens to vote on what title the mayor has earned and it would range from (Infamous or Dastardly to Upstanding and Illustrious) thus if a Castle Monarch or Node Mayor leaves taxes at a very high rate for months and the citizens don't feel the taxes are just then they may vote him the title of "Wretched" or "Greedy" Or if the Mayor sets up a horrible caravan trade with another node to trade 1 diamond for 1 egg, either because he's that stupid or he was talked into doing it to make the female ruler of that node happy with him, then his citizens (just before voting him out for good) give him the title of "weak minded / feeble minded"

FuryBladeborne

Kohl wrote: »

jubilum wrote: »

Kohl wrote: »

Corrupted players suffer plenty as is without dampening their skills to make them easy to kill.

It seems apparent that the point of dampening skills until the PKer is PVP ineffective is to stop the PKer from murdering green names constantly. If nothing else will stop the player from abusing others to such an extent, then being PVP ineffective will at least for a time.

Kohl

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Copperfield wrote: »

people seems to be forgetting that that bounty hunters are being implemented into the game.

Everyone keeps telling that corruption should not be rewarded and only be punished..

bounty hunters get rewarded... so should corrupted players in a mild form..

Example:

A corrupted player should get some reward by killing a bounty hunter imo..

if none goes corrupted, the bounty system will not work.

People will become corrupted simply because they want to PK. If you don't already know this, then browse through this thread. There are many people describing how much they want to be corrupted. The bounty hunter option is part of the system in place to keep these people in check so that they don't wreck the game for everyone else.

You know, although I want to be corrupted, I have 0 interest in killing low level players who are the new seeds that will populate the game even more.

If you take a look at the corruption system you fill find out that it's based around "the corrupted player has to die."

Why are we playing this prolonged game of bullshit. Just outright kill the player the moment they become corrupted, you dont need bounty hunters. I find the whole dampening of skills plain ridiculous. That's the only thing that bothers me.

Revo Send

I don't want to become a snowflake

Syltharis

jubilum wrote: »

Kohl wrote: »

I'm still hopeful that one day I'll enter a guild that's dedicated to flagging every other guild for war, so we'll be able to go around the whole corruption bs that's dampening the skills until you can't fight at all. lol.

OMG, IS please put a stop to this immediately. Eve Online redux. This is the most abused system in Eve, their are a handful of corporations that this is all they do. They war dec. 1000's of smaller corps every week, they even war dec large null sec. corps who very rarely even enter high sec just for a target rich environment. Then they sit at choke point jump gates to kill everyone that passes thru. If you're lucky enough to pass thru the gate and not be red to them, expect to be war dec'ed next week. Eve has tried several things to cut down this cheese of the system with very litt;e success. The only way to control the above mentality is to allow a guild to war dec one maybe two other guilds at a time.

If something like this pops up on a server it will be empty in two weeks, it is so effective in Eve because there is no option to move to another server. You have two choices if you are small, new players corp., either log out until the war dec ends or sit in a station for the duration.

No, no and no. I do plan on making my own guild hellbent on world domination. That means either subjugating other guilds or at constant war with them. Sieging other nodes as often as possible, destroying them then appoing one of my guild's members as a person in charge of that node. And so on and so on, untill all of the 100+ nodes are directly or indirectly under my rule. Kapish ?

Kohl

@Syltharis

M-Master... I will fight for your dream!

FuryBladeborne

Kohl wrote: »

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Copperfield wrote: »

people seems to be forgetting that that bounty hunters are being implemented into the game.

Everyone keeps telling that corruption should not be rewarded and only be punished..

bounty hunters get rewarded... so should corrupted players in a mild form..

Example:

A corrupted player should get some reward by killing a bounty hunter imo..

if none goes corrupted, the bounty system will not work.

People will become corrupted simply because they want to PK. If you don't already know this, then browse through this thread. There are many people describing how much they want to be corrupted. The bounty hunter option is part of the system in place to keep these people in check so that they don't wreck the game for everyone else.

You know, although I want to be corrupted, I have 0 interest in killing low level players who are the new seeds that will populate the game even more.

If you take a look at the corruption system you fill find out that it's based around "the corrupted player has to die."

Why are we playing this prolonged game of bullshit. Just outright kill the player the moment they become corrupted, you dont need bounty hunters. I find the whole dampening of skills plain ridiculous. That's the only thing that bothers me.

Ya, I think it sucks to kill players to a point that your PVP ineffective. On the other hand, people have been describing it as mainly (or only, I think) impacting players that kill green names in non-consensual PVP. It tends to just be PKers that should get stat reduction; and, that stat reduction apparently only culminates in being PVP ineffective after killing many green names. As a way of finally stopping such abusive behaviors, I suppose that it is acceptable.

Beck Altarr

@SSRogue

I think I have read enough of this thread to get some idea of what you maybe are trying to say.

You want there to be OTHER ways to earn Corruption and through those means perhaps an unknown underground faction may become available where you can gain access to titles, Cosmetics to adorn your character and possibly cosmetic spell/abilities that would separate you from the masses as someone who is/has been corrupted for some length of time.

These things would not exclusively require you to PK. Perhaps there would be missions like Assassinating a Mayor or Guild Leader of a Castle or high level cleric of a religion, which would be reasonable expectations as they would be legitimate issues to deal with and make those roles a little more interesting. Yes it's a PK, but if you accept the responsibility of the role you accept the danger, much like running a caravan.

You would still get corruption, but as a mission type, you would also earn corruption points you would not get just killing random players for corruption, so the motivation for random PKing is further decreased.

Of course this would have to be a secret in the game until a player earned enough corruption and survived long enough to unlock some hidden dungeon or some such to unlock the Corrupted "religion" and build it up from there.

You could then apply the points you earn from the other means of earning corruption to buy cosmetics and level up within the ranks. You wouldn't gain access to any new skills, but maybe your spells/abilities have a more corrupted look to them.

Additional to the idea: I don't think metropolis can form in the underground nodes. So maybe there could a chance for a node to form a black market type town where corrupted wouldn't be auto attacked by guards.

PlagueMonk

SSRogue wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

SSRogue wrote: »

But I digress........I tried skimming through all the posts and didn't see anyone mention the one thing that I feel being a corrupt player should be about......the challenge. If you can take on bounty hunters, and kill combatants while fighting at diminished fighting ability, that will be a bad a**ed player indeed and what you should be striving for as a 'bad guy', not ganking non-combatants.

I will also say that terms like, "I don't want to just be a griefing player killer" bother me because that right there tells me you do indeed plan on being a griefer. Being an a**hole only occasionally doesn't really make your argument any better imho.

You hit a great point with being corrupted and still fighting the bounty hunters, and should you choose to become corrupted and you survived waves of bounty hunters who choose to come at you and you survive then why not be rewarded with a cool hard to get title?

As for the griefing stuff, you can get any vibe you get and I have no control of it but I feel like if you read everything vs scanning it as you admitted then you would see the scenario-based things presented that is not griefing. I have come up with several player choice-based options for a potential way to be a good player vs a bad player, a player vs player, and not a person killing an unwilling person.

And yes this game has siege wars, and guild wars and I will take part in them but there is a difference that takes away from the individual experience. There could and is already some smaller-scale things and we are simply discussing the potential for more

If it's a title you want, I'm all for that. I would even support a whole slew of titles that can only be gotten through corruption, maybe even a hat or something I will not however support things like reverse bounty systems that reward players in a real monetary way. That goes beyond a minor incentive.

And I admitted to skimming the THREAD, I thoroughly read the original post.

BaSkA_9x2

SSRogue wrote: »

that system that punishes you for being bad by basically making you completely useless after so long so that you are no longer a threat to even a level 1 critter.

I dislike PKers, specially griefers, but I must agree this is bad game design. Punish reds in as many ways as possible if you want to, make them lose gear on death, shine a red dot on the World Map, but don't turn them into harmless things. Unless the game is able to detect someone who's just a griefer trying to make other people's experiences miserable, I think a debuff is unnecessary.

Caeryl

BaSkA13 wrote: »

SSRogue wrote: »

that system that punishes you for being bad by basically making you completely useless after so long so that you are no longer a threat to even a level 1 critter.

I dislike PKers, specially griefers, but I must agree this is bad game design. Punish reds in as many ways as possible if you want to, make them lose gear on death, shine a red dot on the World Map, but don't turn them into harmless things.

Why not? Making them unable to continue griefing seems perfectly fair if they’ve shown they can’t be trusted not to grief.

Don’t forget Corruption-based stat damps ONLY apply to PvP

cellesie

@SSRogue There are open 'battlefields', caravans, raids, sieges, nodes wars, that all allow for non corruption pvp. This is part of the risk and reward system. So highway robbery and bandits can definitely be a thing.

Also, there is a thieves guild that will provide storyline, and they have discussed allowing players to go 'darker paths' regarding religious storyline. The wiki pages goes into more depth about the nuances and how and where corruption is a thing. (You can also look up factions for info about theives guild, scholars academy and trade company? Not sure on the name. Also more in depth look at religions).

Basically you can be a 'combatant' and not get corrupted. But you can't attack 'non-combantents' without getting corruption. However, if its an open battlefield, everyone's immediately a combatant, and you won't get corruption for pvp. The corruption system is more geared to prevent bullying. There's a lot of systems that allow active healthy pvp. Happy hunting 😁

Theplague4u

I'm playing archeage unchanged on the fresh start server and after 2 months many guilds quit and most of my neighbors are gone. When there's no crime balance you have a world of murderous players. Typically these types of players will quickly gear up and go after easy targets, and mostly kill them for no other reason than to laugh about it. I find it humorous they cry about any realism that would occur for their actions in game. I hope all future games will bring a realist crime punishment system into action. How can you expect to do whatever you want without any consequences? My advice for you types, go play those dying games or ones just for mindless killing. Your play style is cancer for MMOs and only make up a very small percentage of the player base.

As an analyst, it comes down to crime balance and law structure for continuous healthy player growth.

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