Malc wrote: » It's a shame if you only base your friendships in games based on players who are equal skill to you. Over the years I've accumulated a great number of friends, both of higher and lower skill than myself. That doesn't mean that we cannot have fun enjoying the content before us.
Lostforever wrote: » Malc wrote: » It's a shame if you only base your friendships in games based on players who are equal skill to you. Over the years I've accumulated a great number of friends, both of higher and lower skill than myself. That doesn't mean that we cannot have fun enjoying the content before us. Sorry but what you said is willful misrepresentation of the request for DPS meters etc as something else. We all have friends who are better players than us and also worse players than us. This has nothing to do with wanting to know the numbers.
Malc wrote: » So if it's a mindset, why is a DPS meter a necessity? I love DPS meters as much as anyone else but also see the arguments against them. (Admittedly playing devil's advocate more than anything currently.)
Lostforever wrote: » I have heard Steven say this number of times that this games gives "no participation trophy". You have to "earn" your rewards in the game. This is great and I am all for this. However I have also seen Steven claims (indirectly) that if players excludes other players from their group for number of reasons such as poor performance (lack of dps etc), then that's a toxic behavior. Is he not contradicting himself here? The idea of "No participation trophy" means you have to measure other people's performance. If you have a flying mount then you have put in the time and effort to do it and the flying mount is the measure. So why can't player measures each others performance? Why is that toxic?
Malc wrote: » My original implication was that from experience, including personal, if I see a player with lower DPS than my personal expectation it's very unlikely that I'll play with that player again. When in reality, why should we necessarily focus so much on that, that we ultimately miss out on the potential of making a friend? Who the other individual is, is not necessarily defined in their ability, or inability to pull of their rotation perfectly. Judging by the points you've made, to me, it seems like you intend to judge others you play with based on a few statistics in a graph?
Aardvark wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » I have heard Steven say this number of times that this games gives "no participation trophy". You have to "earn" your rewards in the game. This is great and I am all for this. However I have also seen Steven claims (indirectly) that if players excludes other players from their group for number of reasons such as poor performance (lack of dps etc), then that's a toxic behavior. Is he not contradicting himself here? The idea of "No participation trophy" means you have to measure other people's performance. If you have a flying mount then you have put in the time and effort to do it and the flying mount is the measure. So why can't player measures each others performance? Why is that toxic? Well also have hard counter pvp participation wins and raid dps qualifying you for loot instead of of your own dps.
StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
StevenSharif wrote: » Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.
daxiongmao87 wrote: » Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent.
Lostforever wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️ Hi Steven, Thanks for taking the time to reply I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on. Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?
Lostforever wrote: » daxiongmao87 wrote: » Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent. Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing. Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games.
daxiongmao87 wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » daxiongmao87 wrote: » Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent. Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing. Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games. Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging. And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity.
ponzini wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » StevenSharif wrote: » Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons; IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters. The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players. So to conclude, My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together. My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players. I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️ Hi Steven, Thanks for taking the time to reply I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on. Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right? 1. It will not happen as often though. Also why give those players another tool to exclude players? 2. You do have combat feedback. You will see your damage when you hit a mob and you have combat logs. You just wont have a meter than distills everyone you did down to a DPS number. You'll have to guage for yourself how to improve and now have your computer do it for you. 3. Same as above really. Figure it out on your own. You have combat logs and will just have to guage your performance on your own.
Lostforever wrote: » daxiongmao87 wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » daxiongmao87 wrote: » Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent. Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing. Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games. Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging. And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity. DPS meters can contribute to toxicity. I don't think anyone disputes that. The issue is how much toxicity they contribute and I think not much compared to PvP and related systems in the game. If you are really worried about toxicity, then PvP game is the wrong type of game to play.
daxiongmao87 wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » daxiongmao87 wrote: » Lostforever wrote: » daxiongmao87 wrote: » Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent. Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing. Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games. Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging. And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity. DPS meters can contribute to toxicity. I don't think anyone disputes that. The issue is how much toxicity they contribute and I think not much compared to PvP and related systems in the game. If you are really worried about toxicity, then PvP game is the wrong type of game to play. Toxicity is always going to be a thing. It doesn't mean we shouldn't combat it or minimize it. And to be honest i think I'll be fine with PvP with the current design of the corruption system. We are taking about DPS meters and raiding anyway, not pvp
