Looting rights

In the recent dev discussion, Steven said that, whichever team does the most DPS get the loot right of bosses etc. This is fine but how do we know how much DPS we are doing? This is not discussion about DPS meters! But consider this case,

Two teams (A and

are killing the boss. Team A is better geared than the other team B so clearly Team A is going to do more DPS and get the loot. Outcome of this has been decided even before the fight is about begin provided gear is greater than all. Now you are member of team B, what would you do in this case? But remember you don't know what the DPS other team is doing.

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Songcaller

Don't be a care bear. Fight for your right to loot. It's a PvX Game and you should expect Contestation. If you can't stave off contestation then by rights you don't own the loot. If your Raid is happy to let another Raid out DPS you instead of engaging the other Raid, then you have bigger issues than how much DPS you do on a boss.

Edit: In a simple scenario it would be simple to know if you've done 40% of the damage if another Raid hasn't contested by that point because the boss would be at 60% Health.

If the Raid Boss has self heals it would be difficult to know what percentage damage you've done until the Raid Boss is defeated which means you'd have to fight to control the Raid Boss which heals.

Lostforever

If gear plays a large part, then Team A is going win even in PvP against Team B. The question is what should Team B do?

Songcaller

Most of the gear will be crafted gear...crafted gear will match the Dropped Gear from PvE Raids. There shouldn't be a situation where one Raid is superior in terms of gear in a substantial way, you might have to face PvP Passives but then you could outperform a PvP Passive Raid in the PvE.

The issues is not a static issue, there will be group balance. Traditionally a Raid Group (PvE Focussed) is better equipped to fight than most PvP Raid Groups (Not necessarily through gear, but, through team synergies). It is not impossible for a PvP Raid Group to outperform a PvE Raid Group in terms of synergies, but, PvE Raids are easier to access than massed scale PvP and the skill acquisition can sometimes be slower for PvP Raid Teams. Often times, a PvE Raid Team is the PvP Raid Team. It is why I love PvX Titles.

CaptnChuck

Lostforever wrote: »

If gear plays a large part, then Team A is going win even in PvP against Team B. The question is what should Team B do?

Good question. We still don't know everything so we just have to wait for the alpha.

spladian

team b should flag up, and eliminate team a

Lostforever

spladian wrote: »

team b should flag up, and eliminate team a

See my answer above, Team A is has better gear so team B will loose the PvP match as well.

If Team B, stays and fight the boss, Team B is really helping the Team A by killing the boss faster!

Team B only have 1 real option, that is to leave but since we don't know what DPS we or others are doing, we can't make informed decisions as to if we stay and fight the boss or we leave. You have to hope for the best and in reality, you had no chance in hell of ever getting the loot.

Songcaller

We don't need undercover DPS Meter threads, we have enough DPS Meter threads.

most organised Raid Teams will have a Cover Raid Team to block contesters, even fight the contesters before the contesters can even aggravate the actual people on the Raid Boss.

There will always be more than 1 option for people. It's an MMO and you can make alliances.

InkEyes

Lostforever wrote: »

See my answer above, Team A is has better gear so team B will loose the PvP match as well.

"The A Team" has better gear but team B has a raid boss hitting team A at the same time...seems like a fair fight.

but yes i would prefer a system where there aren't MORE drops to a boss if multiple teams hit it. rather the drops get distributed unequaly based on how much dmg each team does, so you can also cooperate on bosses.

Jexz

I keep reading people say crafted gear is as good as raid gear. But the drops to make said crafted gear drops from raids. So really it is just crafted raid gear and if you aren't raiding you aren't getting raid gear or equivalent.

If your raid is under geared hopefully you walked in on them and not the other way around. It is not going to be out DPSing the other raid party but making them wipe.

lets assume you walk in on them because If they walk in on you you've probably already lost.

Put pressure on their tanks and healers. Try not to go red doing so, pressure not kill. If you can make the tank break agro and the healers cant handle the pressure. you probably made them wipe.

I'm really excited to play tank. The utility they have thought up is amaze-balls for pvp.
There is the potential to Pull their tank to the healers or DPS causing havoc and extra pressure on the healers. The shield may or may not block heals.

In other games with similar loot lock mechanics If you don't have looting rights the target info is grayed out. So I assume there will be a visual indicator as such to let you know. Will be interesting to find out if you need to reset the fight if the other raid party got the boss down past 60% before they wiped. Then there is also the dynamics of bosses where there are multiple raid party fighting. These fights will go to the guilds who have dedicated PvP sister guilds.

Beekeeper

It never really struck me that in a scenario where 2 groups try to get the most damage into a boss, it make complete sense that they would try to distract each other via pvp. If you take out one of their healers, their tank is suddenly way more vulnerable, or putting CC on the enemy tank makes it so the enemy DPS draws way more aggro. Unless of course the enemy DPS stops pumping as much damage into the boss, so you have an edge to get the upper hand again!

Ideally, this could result in some really awesome tactical situations.

SickBubblegum

@Lostforever What you're forgetting is Team B may be under geared but they have Team C waiting on the sidelines to ambush Team A when close to wiping on a boss to reset the boss for Team B to tag and begin DPS to gain advantage and later return the favor for Team C

Naxxaz

Neurath wrote: »

We don't need undercover DPS Meter threads, we have enough DPS Meter threads.

This.

Also I think it's a bad example to begin with, they may be doing more DPS, but fuck that, they have plenty of options.

Does alot of our team hard counter theirs? (example seems to assume both teams are the same outside of gear)
Do we have nearby allies?
Can we attack them while they are busy with mobs/boss?
Can we harass them till it's just not worth it for them?

3am

Better gear doesn't necessarily mean more DPS, as the game is pvx you shouldn't be building for a straight DPS race. A better group that can handle the mechanics of the fight, outsiders, and a changing boss Ai will win. Players will most likely need to be adaptable, not DPS zombies.

Noaani

Honestly, this is just one more reason why the decision in regards to combat trackers goes against the core design of the game.

That decision is not one that is made from a logical perspective.

Songcaller

Jexz wrote: »

I keep reading people say crafted gear is as good as raid gear. But the drops to make said crafted gear drops from raids. So really it is just crafted raid gear and if you aren't raiding you aren't getting raid gear or equivalent.

You can craft gear equal to dropped gear, yes. My point is until Raid Bosses are killed everyone will mostly have crafted gear. It makes no sense not to contest a kill. If you are not willing to contest a kill then Ashes isnt for you. If you dont want to play without third party addons then Ashes isnt for you.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Jexz wrote: »

I keep reading people say crafted gear is as good as raid gear. But the drops to make said crafted gear drops from raids. So really it is just crafted raid gear and if you aren't raiding you aren't getting raid gear or equivalent.

You can craft gear equal to dropped gear, yes. My point is until Raid Bosses are killed everyone will mostly have crafted gear. It makes no sense not to contest a kill. If you are not willing to contest a kill then Ashes isnt for you. If you dont want to play without third party addons then Ashes isnt for you.

I have no personal issues with contesting a kill, however - player agency and all - I want to be able to know how well things are going so I know if I need to come up with a different approach.

On of the cornerstones of player agency is that players have the information they need to make decisions, and to understand the consequences of this. As such, anything done to take away information from players reduces player agency, by it's very definition.

Songcaller

If the tool tips are substantial, the signals from bosses are clear, the skill of players related to their class is good, then you can overcome any challenge.

You claim to be the top 1% of Raiders, but, you seem to believe you cant determine what is happening without a DPS Meter.

If a Raid Kills a Raid Boss, no one will care about a lack of DPS Meter - irrespective of the difficulty, if a Raid is wiping they would love a DPS Meter and even call for nerfs. Trial and error builds stronger foundations than blanket approaches.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

You claim to be the top 1% of Raiders, but, you seem to believe you cant determine what is happening without a DPS Meter.

I am saying that in a situation where I have a raid of 40 players killing a mob against another raid of 40 players killing the same mob, and no doubt many onlookers and random people decising to jump in as well, no person alive will be able to tell how well their raid is doing in relation to the opposing raid (or potentially even multiple other raids).

If this is a factor in how loot is awarded, then it is something that should be known to players.

Jexz

I have not been on a raid for many many years. I was on the side lines for DPS meters. I can understand wanting or even knowing your own DPS. But I can't get behind Knowing the DPS of others either in your own Raid but especially the dps of a competing Raid group. I hope the devs stand their grounds on that.

I believe there will be a indication if your raid has loot priority as most games have that. If your Raid has it and loses it you know you are getting out DPS'd and that you need to change to wipe the other raid group.

Noaani

Jexz wrote: »

I have not been on a raid for many many years. I was on the side lines for DPS meters. I can understand wanting or even knowing your own DPS. But I can't get behind Knowing the DPS of others either in your own Raid but especially the dps of a competing Raid group. I hope the devs stand their grounds on that.

The leading proposition to Intrepid in regards to a combat tracker was to make it so that it is a guild perk, and only works on members of that one guild.

As such, any player wanting to avoid combat trackers will likely find that if they play the game normally, that will happen - as you can only have direct association with a combat tracker if you are in a guild that picks that perk.

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