DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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Noaani

3am wrote: »

Somehow you haven't managed to pick this up

Oh, I picked it up a while ago.

I've even said a number of times (going back to last year) that this is Stevens game, and so it is Stevens decision.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with his decision, and I am sure he wouldn't expect any one player to agree with every decision he makes - not a player that is capable of thinking for themself, at least.

My response is that *I* will break the rules, it is that there will be multiple combat trackers out there that work for this game, regardless of what I do or do not do, and as such I may as well make use of them.

Why wouldn't I?

3am

noaani wrote: »

3am wrote: »

Somehow you haven't managed to pick this up

Oh, I picked it up a while ago.

I've even said a number of times (going back to last year) that this is Stevens game, and so it is Stevens decision.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with his decision, and I am sure he wouldn't expect any one player to agree with every decision he makes - not a player that is capable of thinking for themself, at least.

My response is that *I* will break the rules, it is that there will be multiple combat trackers out there that work for this game, regardless of what I do or do not do, and as such I may as well make use of them.

Why wouldn't I?

No one said you had to agree. I said that you haven't picked up that it's decided. Which is pretty apparent here. And you wouldn't use them because you should have respect for the community and game your joining.

Noaani

SickBubblegum wrote: »

Unhealthy in the sense that many people when raiding focus more on their name getting higher on the dps list than actually doing what they need to do mechanically. The term unhealthy is more aimed towards guilds which will have a dedicated person whos job is to monitor, analyse and pull up anyone lacking in numbers.

This can be in many forms however I found DPS meters are the most common, I to have been raiding for a very long time and have played majority if not all mmorpgs to have released for western society.

I personally choose to ignore it and occasionally use it as a reference if DPS needs to decrease however some will ignore raid calls, mechanics or over threat a target just to try and get the highest in DPS. This is the individuals problem yes. So the term unhealthy is more of a loose term and not meant to be taken literally.

That is an issue with the guild, not with the combat tracker.

If players are not paying attention to the mechanic that they need to pay attention to get through the encounter, then that guilds leadership is at fault. It doesn't matter what that player is doing instead of paying attention to the mechanic that they should be paying attention to, it is always an issue of guild leadership.

If someone in a raid is ignoring calls, that is a serious issue that should be dealt with on the spot. If it ever happened to me on one of my raids (in a manner where it was not just a bad day for the player involved), that player wouldn't be in the guild much longer.

Fortunately, I have never had issues with people that think their own performance is more important than the raids performance - we tend to weed those people out during recruiting.

Damokles

I will always say that DPS meters should be implemented with care.
Make it a function of training dolls in freeholds or something for everyone, and implement it in raid/dungeon groups for team/raid leaders to look through after the fight.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

3am wrote: »

Somehow you haven't managed to pick this up

Oh, I picked it up a while ago.

I've even said a number of times (going back to last year) that this is Stevens game, and so it is Stevens decision.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with his decision, and I am sure he wouldn't expect any one player to agree with every decision he makes - not a player that is capable of thinking for themself, at least.

My response is that *I* will break the rules, it is that there will be multiple combat trackers out there that work for this game, regardless of what I do or do not do, and as such I may as well make use of them.

Why wouldn't I?

No one said you had to agree. I said that you haven't picked up that it's decided. Which is pretty apparent here.

I have picked up that it has been decided.

Again, that doesn't mean I need to agree, nor that I need to stop discussing the topic.

Damokles

Daedrik45 wrote: »

After reading a couple post about dps meters, I decided to do a little experiment this morning during my guilds raid. I told my GM I wasn’t going to be using dps meter for the raid, he told me if it causes me to slip In dps I was to turn it back on, I said ok deal.

At first I was nervous lol, but bc I played my class for so long and mastered my rotation from leveling and doing dungeons for gear my nerves calmed after the first pull. I started to notice certain mechanics in fights I didn’t before small things that would give away the next step in the fight, certain movements etc. instead of constantly staring at the meter making sure I was at the right numbers, I was able to just play the game and enjoy myself.

Ironically my Gm whispered me and said “ wow this is the best you have parsed in any raid”

It was In this moment I realized what Steve was talking about and I’ve decided I’ll never use one ever again. I will trust my ability and put In the extra work to master my class! Freedom ladies and gentlemen, having no meter gave me FREEDOM.

The thing that you dont see here is, that you used the DPS meter as a learning help which developed into a crutch.
I always tell people to use the meter to learn their rotations, to hone their reactions and to check them after fights.
A dps meter should never be read in the middle of a fight.

The funniest thing for me once was to see where my damage came from as a combat rogue in Warlods of Draenor.
1. Melee Hits
2. Off-hand melee hits
3. Sinister Strike
4. Multihit procs

And I was top damage at the time in mythic.

3am

@noaani
You're right you go ahead and beat the dead horse then. If it helps you through till the game comes out who am I to stop you from venting. Since you understand that the decision has been made I'll stop taking your posts seriously as you know they won't actually go anywhere.

Iversithy

Combat Logs are the only thing necessary. In the end, the only use for DPS meter is for a contest between party members. IMO it takes someone out of the game by a notch as you are only watching numbers and highly efficient performance, not whether the boss dies or not.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

You're right you go ahead and beat the dead horse then. If it helps you through till the game comes out who am I to stop you from venting. Since you understand that the decision has been made I'll stop taking your posts seriously as you know they won't actually go anywhere.

Debate and discussion is always worth it.

If you have something to actually add to the topic, I welcome it.

3am

noaani wrote: »

3am wrote: »

You're right you go ahead and beat the dead horse then. If it helps you through till the game comes out who am I to stop you from venting. Since you understand that the decision has been made I'll stop taking your posts seriously as you know they won't actually go anywhere.

Debate and discussion is always worth it.

If you have something to actually add to the topic, I welcome it.

Debate and discussion with purpose are always worth it. Debating and discussing something that's already been debated and discussed to a finalized end is complaining about the conclusion. My addition to the topic is no, it's a terrible idea that is categorically against the direction and design of the game ( As it is against the rules). The only other thing I would add is an applaud to intrepid for being so patient on this, and allowing forum members to literally state that they plan to cheat in the game. It takes a lot to stand by your word, and it says alot for the company.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

My addition to the topic is no, it's a terrible idea that is categorically against the direction and design of the game

How is it against the games design?

One of the central tennents of this game is player agency. A key aspect of player agency is that players should have the information they need to make a decision. Not having access to a combat tracker takes away access to information players need to make decisions.

You could argue that a tool akin to DBM goes against the design direction of Ashes, but having access to information is absolutely consistent with everything else in the game.

3am

It's literally in the ruleset, a direct design and decision. Need is a strong word, a few players want it.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

It's literally in the ruleset, a direct design and decision.

That doesn't mean it is consistent with the rest of the game.

3am

noaani wrote: »

3am wrote: »

It's literally in the ruleset, a direct design and decision.

That doesn't mean it is consistent with the rest of the game.

No what it does mean is that it is part of the game, a designed, and decided part of the game. Player agency is not the same as data metrics. One is the ability to make personal decisions within the games outlining design and direction, the other is explicitly excluded from this design to prevent min max mentality that would limit that player agency and health of the gane. Not that players won't still min max but the choice to do so will be personal and take work (which is a good thing)and time(alot of time) and not be a societal pressure pushed onto all players. If you allow it anywhere into the non back alley cheating portion of the game you'll create this pressure, removing said player agency.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

One is the ability to make personal decisions within the games outlining design and direction

Actually, it is teh ability to make *informed* decisions.

That is a key word in this context.

A decision without information is a guess.

Daedrik45

@noaani can you please explain to me what a combat tracker does compared to a dps meter. I want to fully understand your point of view and hopeful we can find common ground maybe even a compromise

Noaani

Daedrik45 wrote: »

can you please explain to me what a combat tracker does compared to a dps meter. I want to fully understand your point of view and hopeful we can find common ground maybe even a compromise

A combat tracker is a more accurate term to refer to what some people (mostly just those from WoW) call a DPS meter.

It is taking in to account the fact that it can track anything at all in an encounter (and many things not to do with combat) that you want it to - all you need to do is adjust a few properties.

A "DPS meter" is almost always only set to show DPS, which in most games, on most encounters, isn't actually that useful otehr than measuring the output of DPS classes. Other than on encounters with a specific design element, DPS itself is not important.

As an example, these tools can fairly easily be altered to show how much damage players in the raid are taking from a specific ability, so rather than competing in DPS, players in the raid can compete with each other to see who can take the least amount of damage from the lava - or what ever.

Since these tools are so flexible - to people that understand them - calling the DPS meters simply isn't appropriate.

Krojak

Keeping it simple:

No to DPS Meters:

Focus on the fight.
Enjoy the mechanics of the boss.
Keep your eyes off of the interface.
Full immersion.
No screen clutter.

Yes to Damage Reports:

Built into Ashes of Creation, not a mod.
Only available at the end of Boss Fights.
Gives hardcore guilds their tool for improvement.
Gives those that enjoy self improvement their tool.
Competition is fun for some, let them have it.
Provide other useful information (Avoidable damage taken, overhealing done, interrupts missed etc)

Ashes of Creation will be the home to many types of people. Roleplayers will have their tools to enjoy roleplay. PVPers will have all sorts of ways to enjoy their game. Crafters, gatherers and other lifeskillers will play a prominent role in the world. Economic types will have their stock market, designers will have their freeholds to decorate and explorers will have their massive map to discover.

Please give the competitive/self improvement raiding focused types their enjoyment as well.

HiddenDaggerInn

crafters don't need mods to enjoy the game.

Krojak

Sandman wrote: »

crafters don't need mods to enjoy the game.

I'm referring to a system that's built into the game, not a third party mod.

Since this is a game in development, it could be incorporated.

EDIT: Added this detail into the first post for clarity.

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