DPS Meter Megathread

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SizeMcWave

I don’t want any DPS meters because it is a takeaway from the actual game. I liked the developers vision of a game without it as it would be a novel experience for me in an MMO. Though I get people who want to Min-Max are opposed to not having one, making the process a little more obfuscated to calculate damage will make the people who truly want to MinMax have a more unique experience.

Lostforever

Neurath wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

AoC is going to be very odd game, i.e. a PvP game full of care bears and snow flakes Or many of the players who are against DPS meters since it hurt their feeling is going to quite the game the minute they get ganged in PvP

Ashes will be a competitive game. I do not appreciate subversion and tricks to ensure dominance. I'd rather carve dominance through actions. It is all well and good to use DPS Meters when people only compete for gear, for fast kills, for world firsts. When the focus is PvE it is all well and good. When the PvE is the foundations of PvX then there should be no advantages from third party processes.

No PvP person broadcasts the world first PvP death, or the personal first PvP Kill. We are a different breed entirely, while we might broadcast the first time a Guild loses their castle, we by no means require a DPS Meter to gain the experiences. We act through blood, sweat and tears. EQ wasn't a PvX Game, EQ2 wasn't a PvX Game, WoW wasn't a PvX Game, most MMOs aren't PvX Games. PvX Games are a different beast entirely.

Thats well and good but the biggest argument against DPS meter is that its toxic since used to exclude players from group. In other words its used to hurt other people's feeling ...

Songcaller

Lostforever wrote: »

Thats well and good but the biggest argument against DPS meter is that its toxic since used to exclude players from group. In other words its used to hurt other people's feeling ...

What happens is Steven says something, then all the opposition twist the information and tarnish the information. Then we who support Steven explain why we also do not want DPS Meters, then the people who want DPS Meters twist the information again, saying we don't give good enough reasons and refer back to Steven's reason.

Have no fear, the cycle is a long one which you can clearly see by the size of this thread.

Lostforever

Marscelllo wrote: »

I keep seeing the argument of, if i don't have dps meter i won't be able to know what i can improve on, or i won't know if i'm doing enough to the boss, i won't be able to create a meta, i won't be able to know what's best, and i think that's kind of the point. They don't want meta's to be created. They don't want to see every single dps using the same set up. I personally don't want a dps, if the boss keeps killing you it's a healer/tank issue, if the boss takes too long to take down and uses a group wipe, your dps is too low. I want an mmo to go back to the days where you had to actually theorycraft with friends and check each others numbers and see what works and what doesn't.

If you can get reliable numbers from the game and you can compare your number with your friends, then you have version of "DPS meters". It may not have the bells and whistles of modern DPS meter but it a form of DPS meter. Whats being asked by many here that they don't want the ability to check with friends since it will show them up and hurt their feelings.

Lostforever

Neurath wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

Thats well and good but the biggest argument against DPS meter is that its toxic since used to exclude players from group. In other words its used to hurt other people's feeling ...

What happens is Steven says something, then all the opposition twist the information and tarnish the information. Then we who support Steven explain why we also do not want DPS Meters, then the people who want DPS Meters twist the information again, saying we don't give good enough reasons and refer back to Steven's reason.

Have no fear, the cycle is a long one which you can clearly see by the size of this thread.

As far as I can tell, Steven gave two good reasons against DPS meters,

1. It makes content easier. I agree with him to an extent on this.
2. It can be used to exclude people from groups. This is true but to me this is "care bears" attitude which is bit surprising in a PvP game

What if some people's "feeling" got hurt?

Songcaller

Its a fallacy if you think people won't check with other people.

It is not a case of checking with 'friends' or 'Raid Leaders' it is a simple case of being awestruck by someone who plays the same class as you and asking for 'Tips and Tricks'. It is entirely up to the person with the class knowledge to either grant information or restrict information.

It is not for Raid Leaders, Guild Leaders or Third Party Software to make these decisions for people. People have a right to play how they want to play, a DPS Meter restricts this, even though those who won't have DPS Meters will claim 'It means I can't play how I want to play'.

DPS Meters are most successful in a non-social game (WoW). Life isn't about what you know, it's about who you know. An MMO used to follow these concepts too, except people keep trying to replace the social aspects with automated aspects. It is not merely a defence of not having a DPS Meter, it is a defence of natural associations and natural Risk/Reward.

I would have the same issues with Raid Finders and Group Finders because it damages the social aspects of a game. It is true it could be summed up as 'Toxicity' but it is worse than 'Toxicity' because the very fabric of the social structures would be under siege.

Kaielogy

A MVP system where healing, tanking, dps are all counted. End of raid the game will just nominate a player instead of a meter to see who is last, provide more positivity!

Syltharis

My biggest concern is it will take away the fun from some specs, because they might be super fun to play, but not the best spec in terms of raw numbers. I dont know what i will play, but for sure know that i dont want to be forced to change spec i like just because the numbers arent in the top 10%.

Lostforever

Syltharis wrote: »

My biggest concern is it will take away the fun from some specs, because they might be super fun to play, but not the best spec in terms of raw numbers. I dont know what i will play, but for sure know that i dont want to be forced to change spec i like just because the numbers arent in the top 10%.

Isn't that a developer issue and not DPS meter issue? I mean if two classes are supposed to do similar dps but one isn't doing so, then someone somewhere messed up. So instead of actually finding this out, you would rather hide the info?

JonTheFisherman

Competition is what makes games fun. Imagine playing a racing game with no speedometer and not knowing what place you finished.

Lostforever

JonTheFisherman wrote: »

Competition is what makes games fun. Imagine playing a racing game with no speedometer and not knowing what place you finished.

E-peen measuring can be lot of fun among friends

NelsonRebel

Lostforever wrote: »

AoC is going to be very odd game, i.e. a PvP game full of care bears and snow flakes Or many of the players who are against DPS meters since it hurt their feeling is going to quite the game the minute they get ganged in PvP

This comment doesnt make sense when people have given very detailed responses to why the meters will NOT be a good addition to the game on several posts now that you've skipped over or have not yet decided to respond to.

It has nothing to do with feelings or carebears lol.

Meters serve one purpose. To exclude others based on marginal percentage differences. That is it.

Its counterproductive to the entire MMO design to create a game of fractions and math rather than through strategy, learning, and teaching. Meters are exactly what killed several pve communities out there and stifled new players ever stepping foot to try pve content based off of these barriers.

I'm fine with personal and private meters on target dummies that players can share with each other if they CHOOSE to do so. But leave the pve content out of it. It adds to the mystery, and creates a healthy pve thriving community to try it out and learn mechanics without the inevitable barrier of people refusing to teach or show mechanics and strategies until an unrealistic number on a sheet is achieved.

Exzear

DPS/healing/threath meter is the only addon i could agree with but it would be a built in feature.. mostly to see the skill of the people in the guild when you raid on a high level. Other then that no addons please just give us the ability to move around the UI and leave it at that.

Marcet

A BRAND NEW GAME SHOULD NOT INCLUDE ADDONS. THE GAME IS NEW PEOPLE, YOU FORGET ABOUT IT.

IF YOU COME FROM 10 YEARS PLAYING WITH DPS METERS IM SORRY. THIS IS A BRAND NEW GAME. DONT PUT SHIT ON IT.

NelsonRebel

Marcet wrote: »

A BRAND NEW GAME SHOULD NOT INCLUDE ADDONS. THE GAME IS NEW PEOPLE, YOU FORGET ABOUT IT.

IF YOU COME FROM 10 YEARS PLAYING WITH DPS METERS IM SORRY. THIS IS A BRAND NEW GAME. DONT PUT SHIT ON IT.

Well all caps isnt exactly how I would have put it, but I agree with your sentiments 😂

Its a new game, wait for it to come out before trying to ruin end game for everyone with arbitrary dps meters before anyone even knows how the game will work in full

Grievousness

This thread is so funny to read.
I can already imagine all the toxic wannabes looking for reasons to ridicule players that are slightly worse.
I guess they will just use any other metric that looks halfway decent.
I think next will be gearscore.

I still don't get why people not simply surround themselves with players which share their views and create their own space to enjoy the game the way they want with the people they want.

Instead people write down the most extreme things you can imagine to ensure that the game really enforces this concept on everyone, which won't really help anyways:
(Which is why we cannot have nice things.)

nelsonrebel wrote: »

Meters serve one purpose. To exclude others based on marginal percentage differences. That is it.

Syltharis wrote: »

NO TO DPS METERS. ANY FORM OF DPS METER SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED. EXTERNAL USAGE OF DATA PARSING AND DPS METERS SHOULD BE BANABLE OFFENSE. PERMA BAN IN FACT.

ogre wrote: »

Despite the fact that a meter or tracker can provide unbiased data they would almost certainly be used as a measure to separate and exclude players.

Just get more extreme please ask to make everything you don't like a ban reason.
Like looking at you the wrong way or sth.
Not like that would be toxic as hell.

The funny thing is that all those "elitists" some of you hate so much will most likely not even be affected either way.

There has still no problem been found that is complicated enough to prevent a motivated gamer from solving it.
Therefore I am pretty confident that we will have access to any form of damage simulation, external combat tracker or whatever sooner or later.

Also hardcore raiders don't "live" in the same world pugs do anyway.
They make the effort to organize themselves in a group of people that share the same ambition and similar view of the game.
They basically exclude themselves from all those pugs (and the toxicity) out there and do most of the stuff guild internally since it is simply more efficient and that's why you joined the guild to begin with.

The whole problem of toxicity is far more common in a public space than in a guild you have chosen yourself.
Though there are for sure bad guilds, but you can just not join them or make your own.

If you have problems with toxicity, simply encourage players to commit to social groups like guilds.
Cutting features won't help in the least because it is not the root of the problem.
It is only an instrumentalized metric used by lazy people.

Lostforever

nelsonrebel wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

It has nothing to do with feelings or carebears lol.

Meters serve one purpose. To exclude others based on marginal percentage differences. That is it.
.

Whats wrong with person A excluding person B? Why does B cares?

The answer is feelings

Killzinger

Personally I love ACT, it's easier and leaves bigger room for self-improvement. Also nice to see how well your build is doing against other people with a similar class/build. Only thing I can think of that would be nice is to have the ACT be more intuitive for people that have troubles with understanding how they work? I think a lot of people are afraid of ACT if they perform poorly because they don't understand that you can improve from the information that the ACT gives you. Would be nice if the ACT could tell you "you need to get more casts of X in" or something to help you improve.

valantir

I think that keeping track of combat stats is important if you want to improve your character and gameplay. On the other hand, a system that ranks group members based purely on damage has the potential to create a toxic raiding environment. Ideally, players would find the group that best suits their goals and playstyles. For players looking to maximize their damage, a meter is undoubtedly a useful diagnostic tool.

IllusionTokomi

Is there even a point to chiming in in a mega-thread of 42 +pages and 1.2k posts? :P

Has anyone above suggested an ordinal ranking (with or without DPS numeric values) to quantify it?
For example, after a fight, a plyaer could pull up aa list and sort by, say, DPS, Healing, etc... to see who had the highest and lowest.

This would allow the raid leader (and individual players) to see if (e.g.) his healers were out DPS-ing his DPS players. Again, I'm suggesting it could have raw DPS or not, but certainly first to last place sorting.

It would allow the leader to potentially address issues, and mitigate exclusivity. Elitism and Exclusivity, will always be a reality, just as meta-builds will be. There is no way to eradicate it without warping the game into complete homogeneity, which is an even worse situation.

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