DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

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Yuyukoyay

Plus not everyone playing the game is going to be dumb. They are going to be able to improve on their own without such a crutch system. You shouldn't really compare WoW to what the community for this game is going to be. WoW has a lot of super casual players. The real hardcore players who did play WoW quit WoW years ago.

In other MMOs it actually took effort to learn how to play your character and people did it successfully. Without the dps meter. A lot of those MMOs has content harder than the hardest raid in WoW. Yet they completed it anyway without the dps meter.

I'd like to assume that the majority of the player base isn't going to be stupid. A lot of the WoW casuals probably won't leave WoW anyway so the overall player skill is probably going to just be naturally higher.

Kihra

As someone who has created and maintains multiple log sites for MMOs (Warcraft Logs, ESO Logs, and FF Logs), I wanted to talk about various logging approaches and to talk about how logging can be designed to minimize toxicity.

The three primary games I support (WoW, FF, ESO) all have different approaches to meters/logging:

(1) World of Warcraft - Supports in-game events for everyone around you delivered in real time, supports events logged to an external file (not quite in real time, e.g,. for viewing right after a fight is over).

(2) FFXIV - Supports nothing officially, leading to an ACT plugin that listens to network events and creates a log file in which events are dumped to a log file for everyone around you in real time.

(3) ESO - Supports in-game events only for the player delivered in real time, supports events logged to an external file for everyone, but players are anonymous in the file unless they check the setting in-game to expose their names to logging (file is written not quite in real time, similar to WoW).

Assuming that Ashes does nothing to provide combat information, the most likely outcome - assuming the game is popular enough that the engineering interest is there - is what has happened with FFXIV.

It is hard to stop someone from building a logging system by using what's sent over the network, since by definition the player's client has to receive this information in order to update unit frames, buffs/debuffs in-game, to show animations of what players are casting and where, etc. This information all flows over the network.

A system built on studying network information will work in real-time, allowing for the creation of boss warnings and the like (similar to DBM/Bigwigs from WoW or triggers from ACT/FF). It also won't be anonymous, since it will know player names.

My recommendation would be to use an approach similar to ESO. You don't need to support meters in-game (other than possibly a meter just for the player, so they can evaluate their own performance), but you should (IMO) support an external combat log file.

The advantages of an external combat log file are:
(1) You can choose what gets logged. Maybe you only want to allow specific encounters to be loggable (where it's actually important for raid groups to be able to diagnose what's going wrong).
(2) You can support anonymity (similar to what ESO does), so that a player's name never ends up on a log site without their permission.
(3) It's not quite real time, so you don't have to worry about someone building DBM/Bigwigs using the external combat log file.

Paradoxically if you do nothing, you're likely to end up with a system that is more permissive than you probably want it to be (as has happened with FFXIV), and that has led to things being created for that game that the developers don't like (triggers, real-time warnings, etc.). You greatly reduce the engineering incentive to build such a thing if you provide a combat log yourself.

Songcaller

There will be a Combat Log, except, as I've stated before you nuts won't accept a simple Combat Log. As it currently stands, if you utilise Third Party Constructions you'll be banned. There does not need to be any change in the situation at all because the situation will be monitored and people will be banned.

I do not want to see Comprehensive Combat Trackers at all. Triggers and real-time warnings definitely break the game but noobs will be noobs. It does not do well to threaten even in paradoxical terms, you highlight why the situation should be a bannable offense. It is beyond the pale for people to have access to such information. It can be used in PvE, can be used in PvP and can destabilise the whole platform.

It is nice of you to explain the slippery slope we face. Simple tools are never good enough in the eyes of some.

Grievousness

Kihra wrote: »

As someone who has created and maintains multiple log sites for MMOs (Warcraft Logs, ESO Logs, and FF Logs), I wanted to talk about various logging approaches and to talk about how logging can be designed to minimize toxicity.

...

That's a really great post, thanks for sharing this information.
I hope the devs read it since that's definitely valuable input for them.

Skuldhall

Kihra wrote: »

As someone who has created and maintains multiple log sites for MMOs (Warcraft Logs, ESO Logs, and FF Logs), I wanted to talk about various logging approaches and to talk about how logging can be designed to minimize toxicity.

The three primary games I support (WoW, FF, ESO) all have different approaches to meters/logging:

(1) World of Warcraft - Supports in-game events for everyone around you delivered in real time, supports events logged to an external file (not quite in real time, e.g,. for viewing right after a fight is over).

(2) FFXIV - Supports nothing officially, leading to an ACT plugin that listens to network events and creates a log file in which events are dumped to a log file for everyone around you in real time.

(3) ESO - Supports in-game events only for the player delivered in real time, supports events logged to an external file for everyone, but players are anonymous in the file unless they check the setting in-game to expose their names to logging (file is written not quite in real time, similar to WoW).

Assuming that Ashes does nothing to provide combat information, the most likely outcome - assuming the game is popular enough that the engineering interest is there - is what has happened with FFXIV.

It is hard to stop someone from building a logging system by using what's sent over the network, since by definition the player's client has to receive this information in order to update unit frames, buffs/debuffs in-game, to show animations of what players are casting and where, etc. This information all flows over the network.

A system built on studying network information will work in real-time, allowing for the creation of boss warnings and the like (similar to DBM/Bigwigs from WoW or triggers from ACT/FF). It also won't be anonymous, since it will know player names.

My recommendation would be to use an approach similar to ESO. You don't need to support meters in-game (other than possibly a meter just for the player, so they can evaluate their own performance), but you should (IMO) support an external combat log file.

The advantages of an external combat log file are:
(1) You can choose what gets logged. Maybe you only want to allow specific encounters to be loggable (where it's actually important for raid groups to be able to diagnose what's going wrong).
(2) You can support anonymity (similar to what ESO does), so that a player's name never ends up on a log site without their permission.
(3) It's not quite real time, so you don't have to worry about someone building DBM/Bigwigs using the external combat log file.

Paradoxically if you do nothing, you're likely to end up with a system that is more permissive than you probably want it to be (as has happened with FFXIV), and that has led to things being created for that game that the developers don't like (triggers, real-time warnings, etc.). You greatly reduce the engineering incentive to build such a thing if you provide a combat log yourself.

I was a guild leader on ESO in the end game raiding community, and have been a part of end game raiding in WoW before that. I used logging and I have to say without a doubt this is an extremely useful tool that I helped literally hundreds of people with! I love raiding and the communities I have been a part of, and I could give so many examples of people who were able to improve through my and other experienced player's help by using combat logs.

Are dps meters toxic? Yes, when used by toxic people, but these same people will always find a way to be a "toxic elitist" and in some way judge another player's abilities to ensure they meet their own standards. In my experience, however, the vast majority of newb players have benefited GREATLY from the use of DPS and DPS logging tools. And for those of us who are experienced raiders, we have only seen a significant increase in the quality of life the tool brings to ourselves, our raiding community and the new players we seek to help join us in the hardest content the game has to offer.

Songcaller

I should be shocked you require tools for the hardest content, but, I'm not. It is hilarious to hear how many of the self-professed 'Hardcore Raiders' require extra tools, rather than the standard format, to overcome 'The Hardest Content'.

I find it quite inconceivable such people should gain the best items. I do not see how anyone can be proud to have achievements based on foreign tools. It equates to someone getting a 1-1 Degree except they didn't get a 1-1 Degree, they used a Cheat Sheet.

Yuyukoyay

They could just make a dummy you beat up that has a unique UI in combat that shows your dps. Pretty much every MMO uses them and that can work for practicing because that is what you are claiming the primary use to be. There can be other systems to replace DPS meters if people just want to maximize their dps, healing, or buff timings.

IllusionTokomi

Neurath wrote: »

I should be shocked you require tools for the hardest content, but, I'm not. It is hilarious to hear how many of the self-professed 'Hardcore Raiders' require extra tools, rather than the standard format, to overcome 'The Hardest Content'.

I find it quite inconceivable such people should gain the best items. I do not see how anyone can be proud to have achievements based on foreign tools. It equates to someone getting a 1-1 Degree except they didn't get a 1-1 Degree, they used a Cheat Sheet.

Clearly, you are upset. But surely you see that your reduction of the ethic to cheating is absurd - assuming such tools are allowed for them to use.
Is there some positive way you may contribute? Have you nothing constructive to add? Or only name calling and vitriol?

Skuldhall

Neurath wrote: »

I should be shocked you require tools for the hardest content, but, I'm not. It is hilarious to hear how many of the self-professed 'Hardcore Raiders' require extra tools, rather than the standard format, to overcome 'The Hardest Content'.

I find it quite inconceivable such people should gain the best items. I do not see how anyone can be proud to have achievements based on foreign tools. It equates to someone getting a 1-1 Degree except they didn't get a 1-1 Degree, they used a Cheat Sheet.

It's not the equivalent of having a cheat sheet at all. Using your analogy, it's the equivalent of using source material to study to pass your exams rather than going in blind with a prayer.

It's the ability to see data in a clear format in order to be able to compare builds, strategies, etc. The data already exists, why should it be hidden?

Songcaller

I feel I've touched a nerve. I have taken the feedback from various threads (All rolled into this mega thread) and thus my answers are comprehensive. I can accept we will never agree because what I see as vagrant exploitation of simple systems, you see as progressive additions. Yet, when the progressive additions favour a small percentage and not the whole, there is a problem.

I've stated before, IS should implement a system so we can all use the system. So far, from the DPS Meter crowd all I've seen is requests which would see a select group of people having the tools while the rest do not.

It is not conducive to a balanced game when only certain people have access to a system and others do not.

Would you like to play a Class with half the available skills or a class with all the available skills?

It is not me who can't be rational, it is the opposition who can't be fair.

NelsonRebel

@Lostforever

Im not excluding anything from you other than you trying to peep on what I'm doing. Mind your gear and your own damage *shrugs*

As I said before I'm 100% okay with target practice dummies that are personal and private that an individual can CHOOSE to give and provide to a raid leader.

I am not okay with forced metrics within a pve raid/dungeon that takes away from the game to turn into a rat race of who can shame who for marginal differences

NelsonRebel

Grievousness wrote: »

This thread is so funny to read.
I can already imagine all the toxic wannabes looking for reasons to ridicule players that are slightly worse.
I guess they will just use any other metric that looks halfway decent.
I think next will be gearscore.

I still don't get why people not simply surround themselves with players which share their views and create their own space to enjoy the game the way they want with the people they want.

Instead people write down the most extreme things you can imagine to ensure that the game really enforces this concept on everyone, which won't really help anyways:
(Which is why we cannot have nice things.)

nelsonrebel wrote: »

Meters serve one purpose. To exclude others based on marginal percentage differences. That is it.

Syltharis wrote: »

NO TO DPS METERS. ANY FORM OF DPS METER SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED. EXTERNAL USAGE OF DATA PARSING AND DPS METERS SHOULD BE BANABLE OFFENSE. PERMA BAN IN FACT.

ogre wrote: »

Despite the fact that a meter or tracker can provide unbiased data they would almost certainly be used as a measure to separate and exclude players.

Just get more extreme please ask to make everything you don't like a ban reason.
Like looking at you the wrong way or sth.
Not like that would be toxic as hell.

The funny thing is that all those "elitists" some of you hate so much will most likely not even be affected either way.

There has still no problem been found that is complicated enough to prevent a motivated gamer from solving it.
Therefore I am pretty confident that we will have access to any form of damage simulation, external combat tracker or whatever sooner or later.

Also hardcore raiders don't "live" in the same world pugs do anyway.
They make the effort to organize themselves in a group of people that share the same ambition and similar view of the game.
They basically exclude themselves from all those pugs (and the toxicity) out there and do most of the stuff guild internally since it is simply more efficient and that's why you joined the guild to begin with.

The whole problem of toxicity is far more common in a public space than in a guild you have chosen yourself.
Though there are for sure bad guilds, but you can just not join them or make your own.

If you have problems with toxicity, simply encourage players to commit to social groups like guilds.
Cutting features won't help in the least because it is not the root of the problem.
It is only an instrumentalized metric used by lazy people.

The problem with your rationale is that you assume that those are the extremes

When in reality they become the "standard" every time a meter is introduced in an mmo

You know very well that those meters become the standard that everyone tries to adhere to and enforce on every player including newer players just attempting to learn mechanics. They then get completely disregarded and then turns to the inevitable cycle every MMO has seen where pve is a wasteland of the same few dozen groups being the only ones who care to do the content because the toxicity from meters permeates everywhere because its all online as the standard.

Dont pretend that you're unaware of this.

I'm okay with a private and personal target dummy parse that an individual can CHOOSE to share and compare with others as a ballpark estimate of damage. I do not want real time meters within content though because then it becomes arbitrary math and metrics instead of a social online game.

Thats the reality

IllusionTokomi

I want to be the absolute very best I can be at whatever it is I am attempting. I want to be so much better today that yesterday looks like an easy day.
This means I need feedback, particularly in the form of criticism, but also, raw information that can be read and used as a measure. In short, I need a quantifiable standard.

I need criticism to tell me what I did correctly and to duplicate it, what I did correctly and can improve on, and what I did incorrectly in order to eliminate the error. DPS meters can (and in my past, have) been that quantifiable standard of measure against my own performance.

I do not apply this personal standard to you (reader); I do not apply this standard to anyone else. It is a self-gratifying way of playing the games I have played. It's how I measure "best." I also do not look down on someone who finds enjoyment through other methods and means in the game. If they are having a good time: they are doing it right, RP, casual, hard-core, it makes no difference to me how you do it.

You must measure "best" in your own way, that's your prerogative - I wish you all the success in the world! I will measure it my way.

Resultantly, pretending to protect the groups who adhere to my personal standard (I mean those you term "hard-core") is not what I am doing. I don't care about groups and labels. Likewise, pretending to protect those who are not in that label is disingenuous to the discussion. I don't use others as a shield to further my own personal biases. [Edit: nor do I imply they are doing so.]

No one will be able to stop Elitism or Exclusivity. That is going to happen. Perhaps it can be curbed, perhaps not. But I am hoping for a DPS meter for myself. I don't care if you can see it or not.

Kohl

I'm completely fine with damage meters as long as they aren't used to harass people, and make them feel bad just because they don't output as much damage as they should.

So let us use the damage meters, and when we reach the end of the fight, and we all die because we didn't do enough damage, just don't say anything, and remove the players that did the least damage, and try again.

Just having it as a policy is good enough. "harassing people based on their damage is bad, mkay?" and let the community do the rest.

(Yes there was times when I was the one of the DPS that didn't do enough damage, and I have been kicked. And I don't mind this approach because the rest of the players are trying to clear the content, and you're obviously preventing them from doing so.)

IllusionTokomi

Kohl wrote: »

... let the community do the rest.

This is well said. Forcing things on a divided community seems like it won't work out. Maybe letting the community police itself is better.

They will never satisfy everyone, they can never prevent hurt feelings, they can not prevent abuse (as I have stated).

Mitigate it? Maybe? Hopefully! But at what cost?

IllusionTokomi

[Delete]
Double post.

Grievousness

nelsonrebel wrote: »

The problem with your rationale is that you assume that those are the extremes

I don't really get what you mean here, what exactly are you reffering to?

nelsonrebel wrote: »

When in reality they become the "standard" every time a meter is introduced in an mmo

You know very well that those meters become the standard that everyone tries to adhere to and enforce on every player including newer players just attempting to learn mechanics.

They become the standard because meters are generally useful and people will recommend others to get them.
Having a real time combat meter was never required or demanded by guilds as far as I am aware, since they aren't nesseccary for raiding.
Why would anyone "enforce" it on others? (no joke I really don't know why this would happen)
You would e.g. advice it to beginning players so they see the result when training at a dummy, but there is literally no reason to enforce it.

If you adhere to standards in a game you probably just aren't very confident in yourself.
I personally always approach things my way and only use the "meta" as a reference point once I tried my own approach to refine it or change it if it doesn't life up to my expectations.
That is nothing the usual beginning MMO player should do though, learning eveything you need to know in an mmo from scratch is hard.
If you try totally on your own your performance will probably suck and you need a lot of endurance until you work yourself finally to a decent point.

nelsonrebel wrote: »

They then get completely disregarded and then turns to the inevitable cycle every MMO has seen where pve is a wasteland of the same few dozen groups being the only ones who care to do the content because the toxicity from meters permeates everywhere because its all online as the standard.

The problem you are bringing up is pretty serious but has nothing to do with meters, or at least I cannot see any connection.
The common problem new players face is that they need to find a place to learn, that requires that failure or mistakes are allowed.
This place is NOT a pug. And this is really important, in the same way you don't learn your profession from random strangers on the street you also don't learn how to play an MMO from pugs.
If you want to get good you should either way look up every online source for data you can find or join a guild which is ready to teach you.

Like I said this is a serious issue, but it has nothing to do with meters.
The meter will just make it painfully obvious how you perform.

nelsonrebel wrote: »

Dont pretend that you're unaware of this.

I am not pretending anything, are you pretending to do something?
Also what am I unaware of?
I don't decline that meters would probably be popular, I just don't think that they are the root of the problem.

nelsonrebel wrote: »

I'm okay with a private and personal target dummy parse that an individual can CHOOSE to share and compare with others as a ballpark estimate of damage. I do not want real time meters within content though because then it becomes arbitrary math and metrics instead of a social online game.

Thats the reality

Why not? Nobody needs ingame meters in real time.
If you analyze them properly you basically cannot play the game at the same time anyway.

But cut out that "Thats the reality".
First of all we don't know if this is the matrix or not.
Secondly I don't need to be reminded if that actually is reality.

NelsonRebel

IllusionTokomi wrote: »

Kohl wrote: »

... let the community do the rest.

This is well said. Forcing things on a divided community seems like it won't work out. Maybe letting the community police itself is better.

They will never satisfy everyone, they can never prevent hurt feelings, they can not prevent abuse (as I have stated).

Mitigate it? Maybe? Hopefully! But at what cost?

I am willing to be mature enough to move on in life with no complaint if I am excluded because my numbers aren't high enough to group with a particular bunch of players. Some will not be.

The mitigation of no dps meters will only be at the cost of elitism, and shaming.

There are no other downsides. DPS meters are not needed, you can fulfil this by timing people on specific instanced monsters or damage dummies if you want. But this becomes only a "placeholder" because its not indicative of a real time raid buffs/debuffs and monster specific weaknesses and strengths and only gives estimates that will reduce barrier of entry to content for all players new and old.

All it does is incentivize player to player interaction by NOT including meters.

Its quite literally win/win. Meters have no real function to healthily building an mmo communities pve groups. It serves only epeen folks and elitists trying to use the easiest method of toxicity

IllusionTokomi

nelsonrebel wrote: »

IllusionTokomi wrote: »

Kohl wrote: »

... let the community do the rest.

This is well said. Forcing things on a divided community seems like it won't work out. Maybe letting the community police itself is better.

They will never satisfy everyone, they can never prevent hurt feelings, they can not prevent abuse (as I have stated).

Mitigate it? Maybe? Hopefully! But at what cost?

I am willing to be mature enough to move on in life with no complaint if I am excluded because my numbers aren't high enough to group with a particular bunch of players. Some will not be.

The mitigation of no dps meters will only be at the cost of elitism, and shaming.

There are no other downsides. DPS meters are not needed, you can fulfil this by timing people on specific instanced monsters or damage dummies if you want. But this becomes only a "placeholder" because its not indicative of a real time raid buffs/debuffs and monster specific weaknesses and strengths and only gives estimates that will reduce barrier of entry to content for all players new and old.

All it does is incentivize player to player interaction by NOT including meters.

Its quite literally win/win. Meters have no real function to healthily building an mmo communities pve groups. It serves only epeen folks and elitists trying to use the easiest method of toxicity

Not for me. The difference is that I am not claiming to represent anyone but myself.

I don't care what they do or how they behave. It's such a small percentage in my experience. That's Intrepid's business. I want a way to measure myself against myself. There will be elitism and shaming no matter what - I won't concern myself with it.

Timing night be valid, or not. But a DPS meter is more accurate.

Kohl

nelsonrebel wrote: »

IllusionTokomi wrote: »

Kohl wrote: »

... let the community do the rest.

This is well said. Forcing things on a divided community seems like it won't work out. Maybe letting the community police itself is better.

They will never satisfy everyone, they can never prevent hurt feelings, they can not prevent abuse (as I have stated).

Mitigate it? Maybe? Hopefully! But at what cost?

I am willing to be mature enough to move on in life with no complaint if I am excluded because my numbers aren't high enough to group with a particular bunch of players. Some will not be.

The mitigation of no dps meters will only be at the cost of elitism, and shaming.

There are no other downsides. DPS meters are not needed, you can fulfil this by timing people on specific instanced monsters or damage dummies if you want. But this becomes only a "placeholder" because its not indicative of a real time raid buffs/debuffs and monster specific weaknesses and strengths and only gives estimates that will reduce barrier of entry to content for all players new and old.

All it does is incentivize player to player interaction by NOT including meters.

Its quite literally win/win. Meters have no real function to healthily building an mmo communities pve groups. It serves only epeen folks and elitists trying to use the easiest method of toxicity

Try doing the hardest content possible without damage meters, and 7 random people. You spend days, weeks, months learning the fight, and now its time for you to join a group that also knows the fight. Now we're down to meeting the dps requirements to kill the boss. You want to spend additional months just to get lucky with 7 other random players that are seriously able to output the basic amount needed to kill the boss?

I'd rather lose a possible player that could be in my friend list, than to struggle to clear content. Building friendships in games is beyond gathering a group for something.

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