Diversity & Inclusion

Hello there!

Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.

I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).

Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.

I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.

I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?

Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.

I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.

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Comments

CaptnChuck

@suprvilln

Pretty sure I saw a black female towards the end of Lazy peon's video. It was the scene with the 4 winged bird on her shoulder.

So I don't think you should be worried.

Jexz

I'm mixed race. I've joked with people before that all white guys look the same. There is a common joke that all Chinese guys look the same. These days I guess its not a considered a joke anymore...
Your statement that you see all white races in fantasy games all the time. And that you can't make your character look like yourself in most games. Makes me think that you think white guys have no problem making their character look like themselves because well all white guys look the same.

I could be wrong and maybe should not have said anything.
But no I have never felt excluded. Maybe its because I'm a minority of minorities and used to not fitting in visually anywhere. Or that i'm more about the game and less about what my character looks like. I often skip the character creation all together honestly.

Naxxaz

@suprvilln
I would like to hear your thoughts about my previous comment, if you have any.

Also, unrelated, what other cultures have Dwarf-like beings outside Scandinavia? Just out of curiosity.

NelsonRebel

GodsThesis wrote: »

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

I think its fine that the question is asked.

I seriously doubt that forced diversity is a term we can apply to a completely new fantasy game that has a totally new and unique world with no precedent in its lore or its regions. Especially since the world we are about to enter is a post-apocolyptic world in ruins where th races are returnining from several different worlds.

I mean if I saw an awesome looking game that looked like my dream game, I would be looking for every way to project myself into the game too.

Now the tulnar thing isnt really true either pale skin underground doesnt really apply to things like reptilian creatures.

Caeryl

GodsThesis wrote: »

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

Ok so.. this post really encompasses all that’s wrong with eurocentric game cultures. It’s not about being “strong enough” to block off feeling anything about being ignored in a game. There’s a lot of unintentional bias that comes from people, and part of that bias manifests as lack of representation in popular media.

As it stands, I think Ashes is going to do alright. The African/middle eastern-oriented cultural representation seems to be Vaelune. The Ren’Kai seem somewhat rooted in eastern culture. Dunir in sort of Mongolian style. Nikua in indigenous island culture. The elven races make up various European cultures.

If the promise of robust character customization options hold true, then I would hope we will see visually distinct cultural aspects players are able to create within their characters to represent themselves.

GodsThesis

nelsonrebel wrote: »

GodsThesis wrote: »

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

I think its fine that the question is asked.

I seriously doubt that forced diversity is a term we can apply to a completely new fantasy game that has a totally new and unique world with no precedent in its lore or its regions. Especially since the world we are about to enter is a post-apocolyptic world in ruins where th races are returnining from several different worlds.

I mean if I saw an awesome looking game that looked like my dream game, I would be looking for every way to project myself into the game too.

Now the tulnar thing isnt really true either pale skin underground doesnt really apply to things like reptilian creatures.

It was a joke bro. Can't tell if sarcasm or not. I also never said OP shouldn't have asked the question.

Also, I never said the lore was forcing diversity or forced diversity is related to the lore/game. I was speaking in general to OP. I prefaced that part with talking about irl cultural races/ the plethora of other countries to show one can't include everyone. By extension, if people are included it should be by intended design/merit.

nidriks

Want to know what I think?

I think that every day we're coming on these forums to a thread asking about real world problems in Ashes. Racial diversity, sexual diversity and possibly any other politics that can be imagined.

I'm not trying to ignore real life issues or the reported discrimination against peoples of the world.

Ashes is just a game though, and that is how it should be. Every day the news reports the issues of the world. Every day I hear it all.

I play games like Ashes to escape that. I think we all do. So let's leave Ashes to be that escape from the real world.

Im sorry for anyone that faces discrimination in real life, but, and let's be honest here, no one at Intrepid has designed these races to be discriminatory.

Lets just all be gamers and have a politics free Ashes.

Warhog53

I think the word inclusion doesnt accurately represent your intent.

Allow me to see if I understand you correctly. IRL if you live in America, as someone of African descent, you can very likely find others to hang out with. Likewise with other races in other cultures. You seek this same immersion in game - correct?

My counterpoint to the perceived issue would be this: Races in games are modeled off of real races, albeit generally from the past, but they are still a race. Vikings were not black because of obvious geographical and technological limitations. Yet, an RPG might give you the option to color slide to be black anyway. Failing to see diversity in this way would be like somehow having a black Irishman (I know in present times this is obviously possible but again mentioning the past) in real life in say 1000AD.

NelsonRebel

Caeryl wrote: »

GodsThesis wrote: »

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

Ok so.. this post really encompasses all that’s wrong with eurocentric game cultures. It’s not about being “strong enough” to block off feeling anything about being ignored in a game. There’s a lot of unintentional bias the comes from people, and part of that bias manifests as lack of representation in popular media.

As it stands, I think Ashes is going to do alright. The African/middle eastern-oriented cultural representation seems to be Vaelune. The Ren’Kai seem somewhat rooted in eastern culture. Dunir in sort of Mongolian style. Nikua in indigenous island culture. The elven races make up various European cultures.

If the promise of robust character customization options hold true, then I would hope we will see visually distinct cultural aspects players are able to create within their characters to represent themselves.

I dont think its wrong that a eurocentric area create a game based on.. well its area lol. I wouldnt expect an African game studio to cater to a white skin color in an african region based game, or a japanese game studio to do so in a japanese based region game. Realism is something I can appreciate based on locality and also to enjoy the specific cultures of them.

But I do agree that ashes already appears to be poised correctly in this area because its not based specifically in anything, in fact its one of the few games with a very perfectly diverse landmass with an even better lore background for the differences as well.

LockedOut

The goal is to have a character creator equivalent to BDO. I'm guessing you won't have any issues making your character the way you want. Personally, I don't really know if it's me, but posts like this kinda rub me the wrong way. When I watch a movie like Black Panther where the cast is mostly black, zero white main cast, and one of the few white people is a sub villain. I don't think well where's my representation? Art usually reflects the artist, whether that's games, movies, novels. Most Fantasy is based off of Tolkien, so it makes sense that a lot of the races tend to be white.

But, who cares? I was raised, and still believe today that as M.L.K. Jr. said, "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." When I watch the Black Panther, I don't think where's my representation because it's already there. It's there when T'Challa is talking to his father in the afterlife, it's there when M'Baku decides to stand with, and protect T'Challa.

We're much more than just the color of our skin; we share a much deeper bond. We're all brothers, and sisters. We're all human.

Beekeeper

There's really only two ways to really include different skin colours. It's either a purely aesthetic flair, or it becomes a meaningful, unique choice. Since there's a million different cultures in the real world, any fantasy setting of a manageable scope is going to have to pick which cultural influences to present and explore, so not all ethnicities and cultures can be included.

As a result, skin colour is either meaningless, or limited in scope. Sometimes limited scope means no Africans.

GodsThesis

Caeryl wrote: »

GodsThesis wrote: »

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

Ok so.. this post really encompasses all that’s wrong with eurocentric game cultures. It’s not about being “strong enough” to block off feeling anything about being ignored in a game. There’s a lot of unintentional bias the comes from people, and part of that bias manifests as lack of representation in popular media.

But I'm black.

I am not eurocentric at all. It's not a high bar to not let fictional lore/game offend someone. It's quite low actually since it's not real. I was trying uplift OP by saying he's a stronger person than he believes. I never said he was weak, but I said the idea was weak. There's a clear distinction: one's just an idea and the other is me attacking the person, which I did not do. All I did was offer an alternative idea, which I think is stronger and more reasonable. And he's free to accept it or leave it if he thinks similarly.

That's quite a blanket statement saying "unintentional bias". That could literally mean anything, at least be somewhat specific. I also don't rely on popular media. Remember that you quoted me and are talking to an individual, not just the general population.

Furthermore, I never said that the game should only include "white" races. I said that games/lore should fit within the intended scope/design of the game developer's to what they think the best MMO experience is. And If consumers do not recognize/dislike the product they will leave, allowing the game to suffer.

My "what-if all-white" statement is trying to show there's nothing wrong with being white. There's also nothing wrong with being diverse if it's done well/ by design and merit. This goes for the "what-if all-white" statement too.

The fact that I have to explain this maybe shows that you have "unintentional biases".

Also my tulnar statement was a joke in case you didn't get that too: there was a tonal shift/ change in word choices for exaggeration.

voidshadow

I know the op wasn't talking about character create but character create does kinda solve a lot of these issues. Or in my opinion it does. To say the human race in game is 'white' is kinda weird and borderline racist to me. They're human. They come in all forms. Players customize their avatar how they wish. And devs design npcs how they wish. Now if the devs just decided that every human npc is gonna be snow white, then yeah thats somewhat concerning.
Same thing with elves. They're meant to be fair skinned. You have the drow elf concept though ashes doesn't appear to have that. Though again, skin sliders in char create can fix this and devs can just throw in dark skinned elves and stick lore on it.
Orcs are orcs
Dwarves: as someone mentioned, the island dwarves do appear to be a bit more dark skinned.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is it all depends on what the player creates and what kind of npc the devs create. Yes the devs can add a specific culture that is more relevant to a specific skin type and that would be cool. The only time things get concerning is if devs dont add skin sliders or just copy paste white npcs.

Also OP, don't bring up asian mmos in a race discussion. They either always look like anime characters, or lolli or cute animals or 5ex dolls or k-pop stars. theres no in between. Race is an irrelevant concept in that regard

For me, i'm middle eastern/south asian. I have brown skin and was never bothered by representation. I was always that by the book player who designed a character to resemble my real self (aside from hair style. Always go with a cooler hairstyle than the one i rock irl). That's just me though. I won't claim to understand where you're coming from because i truly don't understand it.

RahkstarRPG

So, I kind of thought that the prevailing ideology currently was that race =/= culture?

And that games attempting to apply races/colors to cultures was a greater sin in terms of inclusivity than allowing any culture to present with any race/color?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I'm pretty sure there was a whole big thread about that on here recently.

Also, I think it's weird to boil down the races in this game to "a bunch of white guys" when they clearly take inspiration from polynesians/native americans/asiatic nomads (for orcs, which is it's own discussion of racism).

Adaon

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

So, I kind of thought that the prevailing ideology currently was that race =/= culture?

And that games attempting to apply races/colors to cultures was a greater sin in terms of inclusivity than allowing any culture to present with any race/color?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I'm pretty sure there was a whole big thread about that on here recently.

Also, I think it's weird to boil down the races in this game to "a bunch of white guys" when they clearly take inspiration from polynesians/native americans/asiatic nomads (for orcs, which is it's own discussion of racism).

Going too much further down the rabbit hole here - we'd have to start arguing about marxism/post modernism

The topic is rarely about the topic, and there are underlying goals. I would agree that in a rational world - assuming that race = culture, would be more racist than not, but the underlying ideology that drives the topics like these - isn't really concerned with rationality

Yuyukoyay

We bringing culture into this because I'm just going to trust that the npcs aren't going to be copy and pastes. No American made MMO ever made all white NPCs. Most games use cultures not related to whites at all. They also use skin colors across the colors of the rainbow. They use cultures not related to real life.

The overall culture of the game is going to be inspired by the players though. If everyone is white it is because they chose to be that way and it is racist to say they shouldn't be. If an entire race option is only black and people don't pick it then people will yell racism. That is why most games generally allow you to choose.

I've always been against assigning racial profiles to video games. There will no doubt be options for everyone.

I think people who call Orcs racist should just be banned.

CJW

Im hoping for high quality and well researched Afro-hairstyles that decently reflect the beauty and creativity of black culture. Not just some bland cornrows, Afro and a shaved head.

Representation across the gaming industry is abysmal and I’m surprised when I even come across a dark skin shader, of course no way to actually add African features so mostly they come out looking like white characters in black face.

However, we haven’t heard much from the Devs, but hopefully your post will prick some ears.

Also, why would anyone not want more options for skin and hair in a sand box game lol

Caeryl

GodsThesis wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

GodsThesis wrote: »

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

Ok so.. this post really encompasses all that’s wrong with eurocentric game cultures. It’s not about being “strong enough” to block off feeling anything about being ignored in a game. There’s a lot of unintentional bias the comes from people, and part of that bias manifests as lack of representation in popular media.

That's quite a blanket statement saying "unintentional bias". That could literally mean anything, at least be somewhat specific. I also don't rely on popular media. Remember that you quoted me and are talking to an individual, not just the general population.

To clarify on this point specifically, it’s the “white is default” mentality. Basically, if I start describing a character by their profession, their clothes, their personality, etc, people will generally see all of those things on a white man up until they’re specifically told that the character is a black woman. It also sometimes ends up with people being asked to justify why a character “was made black” when they just.. are black.

I actually sort of see it in the original post too, in describing the distinct races as “white” when they pretty clearly pull from real world cultures all over the world. Granted yes, three are white/european/Tolkien inspired. But like I said, in a pure fantasy world, especially one that’s brand new, nothing is set in stone. It’s the best place to explore a wide variety of cultures, and Ashes is doing that!

I think they’re on the right track, I just don’t think totally dismissing OP’s concerns is the right route when the gaming industry does tend to be a little bit toxic. It’s healthy caution, at this point.

CJW

Also, I find in concerning that people think a skin slider is all that will fix representation, as if it’s only skin tone that makes someone black. There is a huge variety of Afro-centric features and hairstyles that could be added and it still wouldn’t be enough to encompass even a small portion of black culture.

You could easily have 8 dark skinned races and have them all distinct from each other.

SnakeyMan

Wow. This really opened up a lot of conversation. Cool. I read about half the comments so; if I repeat someone else's opinion; my b.

I agree with you that there really should be some cultural diversity and note that the slider function is a way to create a character that is more befitting a profile poc can better identify with.

Culturally ; (my impression as they are described) the two races I immediately thought of as being a specifically non white (aside from Orcs and Tulnar ) the Vaelene And the Nikua.. To me each represents an entirely different culture and aesthetic. A departure from the European models.

Representing the Middle East / Africa and maybe Polynesian / islander folk respectively. . (Maybe even south East Asian or even Native American .) Just my impression.

It's an interesting perspective for sure and I think you are correct and that culture diversity is lacking for some players to better connect with games.

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