nelsonrebel wrote: » IllusionTokomi wrote: » Kohl wrote: » ... let the community do the rest. This is well said. Forcing things on a divided community seems like it won't work out. Maybe letting the community police itself is better. They will never satisfy everyone, they can never prevent hurt feelings, they can not prevent abuse (as I have stated). Mitigate it? Maybe? Hopefully! But at what cost? I am willing to be mature enough to move on in life with no complaint if I am excluded because my numbers aren't high enough to group with a particular bunch of players. Some will not be. The mitigation of no dps meters will only be at the cost of elitism, and shaming. There are no other downsides. DPS meters are not needed, you can fulfil this by timing people on specific instanced monsters or damage dummies if you want. But this becomes only a "placeholder" because its not indicative of a real time raid buffs/debuffs and monster specific weaknesses and strengths and only gives estimates that will reduce barrier of entry to content for all players new and old. All it does is incentivize player to player interaction by NOT including meters. Its quite literally win/win. Meters have no real function to healthily building an mmo communities pve groups. It serves only epeen folks and elitists trying to use the easiest method of toxicity
IllusionTokomi wrote: » Kohl wrote: » ... let the community do the rest. This is well said. Forcing things on a divided community seems like it won't work out. Maybe letting the community police itself is better. They will never satisfy everyone, they can never prevent hurt feelings, they can not prevent abuse (as I have stated). Mitigate it? Maybe? Hopefully! But at what cost? I am willing to be mature enough to move on in life with no complaint if I am excluded because my numbers aren't high enough to group with a particular bunch of players. Some will not be.
Kohl wrote: » ... let the community do the rest.
Skuldhall wrote: » Tell that to the literal hundreds of people I helped using data from DPS logs in ESO so I could show them in great detail where they're going wrong, how to improve. Many of which have been raiding happily for over a year now, and a couple recently sent me screenshots of them getting the hardest raid achievement in game. All because I had a tool I could use to help them.
nelsonrebel wrote: » And I dont mind having personal dps measures I just dont want forced meters 🤷🏻♂️ Thats where my line is
Quiltsharts wrote: » noaani wrote: » If you want to immerse yourself in the game, if you want to discover the game at your own pace, I fully agree that you should be able to do that, and I also agree that the way I want to play the game should not in any way prevent you from being able to play the game the way you want to. It's not just about discovering it our own "pace". It's about discovering it at a pace that lets us (as a community) naturally evolve through the discovery of mechanics / metas etc. (Everyone needs to be on the same pace as well, else it's pointless and devolves into Classic WoW anyhow). DPS meters just break that shit entirely. If you clearly know what is the highest DPS ability on day 1 there's literally no testing or arguments that are done by the playerbase. It's just set in stone and that's that. That's not a video game. Look at classic WoW. There's a reason that the 3 raids in the game all have roughly 30 minute clear times now. The game is completely broken by it's players. We can get to this point, just give it some damn time. The most beautiful thing is knowing that in WoW Vanilla, the fire mage (at the start of vanilla anyhow) was considered the best DPS even during Molten Core. We only know now that it isn't, because of all we know now. Hell people even thought Hunters were top tier. Do you want to know how the community felt when Indalamar broke Warriors? That shit goes down in history. Ask your self why a game like Path of Exile doesn't have DPS meters...
noaani wrote: » If you want to immerse yourself in the game, if you want to discover the game at your own pace, I fully agree that you should be able to do that, and I also agree that the way I want to play the game should not in any way prevent you from being able to play the game the way you want to.
noaani wrote: » You only want DPS meters to be available in situations where it is in everyones best interests to help someone that hasn't quite got it, not boot them from the group/raid.
"noaani wrote: » This is why the suggestion that I have been making for over a year now (probably somewhere near the start of this thread) is that Intrepid should build a combat tracker directly in to the games client, but make it available as a guild perk, that can only track the members of that specific guild. With this, you straight away have a combat tracker that only people that want combat tracker access will be able to use. You have a system where people that don't want input from a combat tracker simply don't have any avenue for that input to get to them. You have a system where anyone whose combat is being tracked is in a position where the peopel tracking them are best served by helping that person rather than disposing of them.
"noaani wrote: » When combined with all the ways that Intrepid have already removed a lot of the genesis for negative social interactions (see my post above in reply to Yuyukoyay), and you have a system where literally no one in the game will ever be in a position to say that a combat tracker is causing negativity.
"noaani wrote: » The other thing this does, that I personally think is even better, is that it forces the role of trainer on to raid guilds. When recruiting a new player, there is absolutely no way to know how well that player performs, so recruiting is done based on player not numbers. Then when the player joins the guild, there is a complete and total understanding between all involved that this new recruit has not had the opportunity to improve themselves with the aid of objective data. As such, the guild has to give this player time to work on improving their ability - and the player also has to be in a situation where they know they will need to work on improving. Since this is the first chance the player would have had, these expectations would essentially go without saying.
"noaani wrote: » If you genuinely think that DPS is all a combat tracker (or DPS meter) can inform you of, then you are missing a huge part of the picture. A combat tracker can tell you how much damage the tank took, mitigated, dodged, reflected and blocked. A combat tracker can tell you how much healing a healer performed, how much they overhealed. A combat tracker can tell you how long a CC player maintained CC on how many targets, and can tell you who broke that CC. A combat tracker can tell you how long a given buff was up on a player, or debuff on a mob, and who exactly had it up for how long.
"noaani wrote: » This is an issue with the game design of WoW, not with combat trackers. It is far more accurate to say that WoW is a game that is so easy for you to figure out it left nothing for you to look forward to, and that you are basically a robot smapping buttons in a specific rotation. If you take the combat trackers out of that game, you are still left with that games basic design, which is where these things all come from.
"noaani wrote: » In a game like Ashes, if you start bashing people for their race or class, those players that you are bashing are the ones that you will want to be grouping with later on today, and tomorrow, and next week. They are the players that will help you defend your node from attack, and if you lose, defend you freehold from being ransacked. It will become very clear to people very early on in Ashes that the people that are around you are your biggest asset, they will impact how your time in game goes even more than you will, and so you best treat them with the respect that they deserve. As such, even if full combat tracker were implemented in Ashes, they will almost never be used in a toxic manner against other players - they will be used as a tool to assist those that want the assistance.
Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way.
Sangramoire wrote: » Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon.
noaani wrote: » The issue with this is that those builds will be posted before the game launches anyway.
noaani wrote: » The even bigger issue with that is since there is no combat tracker to test out other builds, the games meta will essentially go unchanged from launch. This is what happened to Archeage, a game with very low combat tracker usage. That games meta now is still almost exactly the same as it was when the game first launched in Korea in 2013.
noaani wrote: » A combat tracker allows the meta to change, no combat tracker means people will be afraid to change.
JonTheFisherman wrote: » Competition is what makes games fun. Imagine playing a racing game with no speedometer and not knowing what place you finished.
Sangramoire wrote: » If you're looking for competition than honestly you're looking in the wrong place. Even if you had the most DPS in a raid that doesn't mean you're better than anyone. If you want to compete against other players, go do some pvp. It's my nice way of saying stop sucking your thumb while trying to constantly pat yourself in the back for being marginally and subjectively better than someone else that doesn't really care to compete with you. It's the exact mindset you shouldn't have with trackers, that elitism that everyone seems to be talking about.
Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon.
Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon. So you agree then, that without combat trackers you cannot feasibly measure a players performance? Because if people could measure performance without them, you will get the same situation where all the good players congregate towards good player guilds and all the bad players/new players will be stuck with each other. That will happen without meters as well, unless of course you are agreeing that without meters then there is no quantifiable measurement of player skill. In which case, meters would be a good thing because a lot of people like to measure their own skill. Not everyone wants to be a blissfully ignorant guy who is just content with clearing a menial amount of content. People WILL want to progress, people will want to challenge themselves, and having no combat tracker at all just devalues what they enjoy about MMOs.
Sangramoire wrote: » Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon. So you agree then, that without combat trackers you cannot feasibly measure a players performance? no that's not what I said at all lol
Linstead wrote: » Sangramoire wrote: » Pantease wrote: » Giving a choice on use of DPS meters, on a guild-by-guild basis, seems like an excellent compromise because by joining a guild, you can choose to either opt in or out of this surprisingly controversial option. If you're playing with others who choose not to use it, then you can play without fear of people using them against you and not feel at all like you're missing out. If you're playing with others that choose to use them, then you're with people who have a similar drive to maximize their potential output in an objectively measureable way. Giving guilds the option to use DPS meters or combat meters is still not a good option as this would introduce a different issue. There will be two kinds of guilds, ones with meters and ones with no meters. Over time any guild that does pve content will inevitably have meters and they will basically be required and if it's a guild that doesn't require it then those guilds will basically be all the people that don't know what they are doing meaning you're only left with guilds that are fully on one side of the spectrum or the other, there's no in between. I can't speak for most players but I'd rather be in a guild that is not fully on either side of the spectrum. I want to be able to clear pve content with people that are generally competent but I would mind have a few new players learning with us as we clear a dungeon. So you agree then, that without combat trackers you cannot feasibly measure a players performance?
Kaielogy wrote: » DPS meter or not, players should not be discriminated from content and be allowed to play whatever class they feel like playing. We should promote competitive raiding groups to mentor players instead of measuring through numbers.
