Loot System

There has been a lot of HYPE for this game as of the last month or so, hence, it has reached my ears/eye.
I started to read the wiki and watch the varies youtube vids to learn more.

As someone who has played the largest population MMO currently in play, I have some experience with the loot system and especially MASTER LOOTER aka NINJA Loot system.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE that all these experienced MMO developers think that a loot system based on MASTER LOOTER is a good idea!!

The largest population MMO switched off of MASTER LOOTer about two years ago to the great cheers of all players! It is now using what they call Personal Loot along with a bonus roll if the player chooses.

So, my experience with Master Looter aka Master NINJA.
1. My guild had to use a system called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) to keep guild members happy (honest guild)
2. Some guilds had rules where the officers where geared up first (run from those guilds)!
3. PUGs is where the NINJA comes into play, when its time to distribute the loot, after three or more hours of killing and being killed, the LOOT MASTER conveniently disconnects! All the hours are wasted, poof goes the loot.

Given the nature of the loot drops in AOC, rarity of gear drop and high need for high quality crafting material, the opportunity for GREED/NINJA and just plain Dishonesty abounds!

How in everything that is right with the world can the Chief Muck Muck think that a loot system based on Master Looter is a good idea? It is lazy thinking.

This will create a nightmare for the GMs chasing and trying to restore stolen loot not to mention endless DRAMA in guilds.
Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.

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Caeryl

Dicdonya wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

RahkstarRPG

Caeryl wrote: »

Dicdonya wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

That's fine, I get that.

But not everyone feels the same.

You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

Stop trying to take away player choice.

Warth

Absolutely against Personal Loot Systems. This game is about community interaction. Each and every feature preventing that should not be welcome.

You can't trust the person holding the master looting rights? Don't join them for a raid or make them use a loot distribution system with equalized chances for everybody (need/greed or bidding).

Your guild is corrupt? Look for a proper one.

Somebody ninja looted him? Make him KOS to the point where he will never get out of his EXP debt again.

Taking away player choice is never the answer. Neither is implementing shit features that go against the basic design principles of the game.

Leroher

@petesmisc,

Some of the problems of this thread and reasons of why there's tension all the time are:
First: your writing style is kind of angry and aggressive.
Secondly: looks like you are just ranting without trying to reach something fruitful (going in circles).
Thidly: you use to criticise the game unfairly saying some things like "there's no point in discussing this anyways, because this game will die like every other game that makes people hyped".

It's really easy to just ask for something while being respectful and nice, everyone will match that energy. Also, if you keep ranting in circles, no one is gonna reach a useful point, making everyone, including you, really nervous. And lastly, debate about the game, fair and squad, dont throw shit at it unfairly and without reason, to just cause dmg (saying "this should be this" is good, saying "this game will die cuz is shit" it isn't).

P.S. also, looks like you have a really poor view of humankind finding everyone evil and selfish, as some pointed out. I guess it's from real bad experiences you had, and I'm really sorry for it. I hope you find some really good friends to play and enjoy this game or another like you deserve, because I really think an MMO shouldn't be played alone (to fully enjoy it, but I know people will, and there's so many types of persons).

I wish you the best of luck.

Caeryl

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Dicdonya wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

That's fine, I get that.

But not everyone feels the same.

You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

Stop trying to take away player choice.

I never implied every guild is corrupt, but you cannot honestly tell me it’s not easier to abuse Master Loot than it is to abuse Personal Loot.

You’re the one who’s implying players generally won’t act to benefit the guild if given the choice, which is what a Personal Loot system offers, a choice. I think most players would still be fine moving loot around to those who benefit most from it.

Warhog53

The current loot system synergizes with the vision of ashes. Specifically, risk vs reward, embracing conflict yet providing equal risk.

One thing this incredibly long and heated post is missing, is setting.

You are arguing that a Corvette is superior to a Jeep in general, but never providing the track.

In my opinion, the current loot system is the best because it better suits the vision of Ashes. There is no risk associated with personal loot. And I challenge you to find a statement by the dev's indicating that they intend to reduce risk as much as possible in AoC.

Yuyukoyay

Nothing about a Loot system is inherent to a vision in the game. There is a system with the risk of 1 guy running away with hours worth of loot vs a system where everyone has to work together to distribute the loot effectively. Gee seems like ML is actually hampering the original vision of the game to me. PL with free trading is the best system you can have.

Most of the ML supporters aren't even coming to the correct conclusion about what PL even means. I saw one guy bring up how PL makes the game a single player game for crying out loud. You cannot get more fair than PL free trade.

PL free trade will work identically to ML in a guild setting. So even bringing up guilds as a counter argument is flawed.

The repercussions of PL. One guy might like what he got and refuse to give it up. Which is fine because it's his drop anyway. Repercussions of ML is people steal from 40 players for hours worth of time wasted. Which can lead to thousands of people quitting the game because people keep forcing ML so they can steal what they want.

Songcaller

It isnt risk/reward if you get no reward. In truth it would be risk/reward with personal loot. I used to use need/greed but because everyone will need to maintain items, need/greed would just have everyone need.

The same applies to master looters. I do not understand why people defend the old methods when personal loot could be far superior. It is difficult to make suggestions on the forums recently because the vast majority of people use WoW as examples and WoW is a bad example.

Warhog53

Well I wish you all well in your crusade. Many others have brought excellent counter points to your views, yet you have gained two who echoes your cries.

Best of luck

RahkstarRPG

Caeryl wrote: »

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Dicdonya wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

That's fine, I get that.

But not everyone feels the same.

You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

Stop trying to take away player choice.

I never implied every guild is corrupt, but you cannot honestly tell me it’s not easier to abuse Master Loot than it is to abuse Personal Loot.

You’re the one who’s implying players generally won’t act to benefit the guild if given the choice, which is what a Personal Loot system offers, a choice. I think most players would still be fine moving loot around to those who benefit most from it.

Here, you completely ignore the given example of someone joining a guild, going on a raid, lucking into an incredibly rare drop, and choosing to /gquit instead of offering it to the guild, even if the guild expressly states that such items would go to the guild bank.

Just as you say personal loot protects individual player interests, master loot protects guild interests.

So, I say again, stop trying to remove player choices. If you want automated loot distribution to be AN option, sure. I don’t really see how it’s really different than NBG, but sure. But not at the cost of other loot options.

You’re the ones demanding we play the game differently.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

PL free trade will work identically to ML in a guild setting.

And another person shoving their fingers in their ears and refusing to acknowledge the given example.

You may not like it, but for crying out loud your opinion and your feelings aren’t objective facts and aren’t necessarily shared by the entire player base, as is clearly evidenced in this thread.

Just don’t join a guild that uses master loot if you’re so vehemently against the idea. It really isn’t that hard. It boggles my mind how you refuse to accept that it’s possible for people to NOT steal loot with ML. I ask again, who hurt you?

Caeryl

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Dicdonya wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

I do prefer complete RNG in loot distribution.

It all comes down to one major point: The impact of bad faith in a Master Loot system is much more severe than the impact of bad faith in a Personal Loot system.

We can completely eliminate the potential harm from bad faith Master Loot systems, and Personal Loot can be made to work like Master Loot for group that agrees to give all loot to one player, with minimal inherent risks of bad faith affecting the distribution.

Sorry but your logic here is flawed.

In a master loot situation you have to hope that ONE person in the group is honest and does not screw everyone over.

In the personal loot situation you just described, you now have to hope that EVERY person in the group is an honest person and will not screw everyone else over.

Remember that loot in this game is mostly not BOP, thus if an item drops that is worth 1mil gold or whatever , who is more likely to distribute that item fairly within the guild. A guildmaster or lootmaster that has a vested interest in their guild, or some guy that just joined 3 days ago, and happened to get some expensive, SELLABLE, drop he cant use on the first run?

IMO the choice is fairly evident as to which scenario has the higher likelihood of drama, and severe impacts.

In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

You clearly don't understand that some people, and guilds, want what's best for their guild instead of what's best for them personally.

That's fine, I get that.

But not everyone feels the same.

You clearly refuse to accept that it is even possible that a guild can exist that isn't horribly corrupt and greedy.

Just don't join a guild that uses master loot. Simple.

Stop trying to take away player choice.

I never implied every guild is corrupt, but you cannot honestly tell me it’s not easier to abuse Master Loot than it is to abuse Personal Loot.

You’re the one who’s implying players generally won’t act to benefit the guild if given the choice, which is what a Personal Loot system offers, a choice. I think most players would still be fine moving loot around to those who benefit most from it.

Here, you completely ignore the given example of someone joining a guild, going on a raid, lucking into an incredibly rare drop, and choosing to /gquit instead of offering it to the guild, even if the guild expressly states that such items would go to the guild bank.

Just as you say personal loot protects individual player interests, master loot protects guild interests.

So, I say again, stop trying to remove player choices. If you want automated loot distribution to be AN option, sure. I don’t really see how it’s really different than NBG, but sure. But not at the cost of other loot options.

You’re the ones demanding we play the game differently.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

PL free trade will work identically to ML in a guild setting.

And another person shoving their fingers in their ears and refusing to acknowledge the given example.

You may not like it, but for crying out loud your opinion and your feelings aren’t objective facts and aren’t necessarily shared by the entire player base, as is clearly evidenced in this thread.

Just don’t join a guild that uses master loot if you’re so vehemently against the idea. It really isn’t that hard. It boggles my mind how you refuse to accept that it’s possible for people to NOT steal loot with ML. I ask again, who hurt you?

I don’t understand your obsession with ML and this “who hurt you” question. It doesn’t take first hand experience to know that you shouldn’t go near a downed power line.

I’ve already made it abundantly clear I don’t think every GM is out for themselves, but there is high potential for abuse that you can’t just pretend isn’t there.

If someone gets a rare drop, and decides to keep it and drop guild, well it’s not like you don’t know their username. It’s not as though you can’t ban that player from your guild events. It’s not as though telling other guilds about that event won’t make them wary of accepting that player on a raid. Word of mouth, reputation, behavior. All that will actually have some weight in Ashes.

Now say you’re a player in a raid with ML. You’re a dps, been in some passable raid gear for a while and have been carrying your weight. You’re not a “regular” but you raid pretty often with a B-group. The boss drops a legendary mat that you need to have a really significant gear upgrade to finally boost your dps into a potential range to get on the A-group. You’ve got DKP built up and gold just in case, but there’s an A-group dps regular who wants it to repair the gear on his alt healer. So I ask, how many times is it acceptable that first player leave without the mats they need for their gear upgrade? Is it ok if the MLooter prioritizes the A-team multiple times? It’s better for the guild, right? Do you find it acceptable to exclude individuals all in the name of “it’s best for the guild”.

This isn’t even an example of a MLooter being corrupt, but it’s absolutely demoralizing as the player who gets constantly skipped over. And what exactly can that player do? They need the materials to improve. They complain about being skipped over in the guild and probably get gkicked for arguing with an officer? They complain to other guilds who do the same thing to their own players? Or they just say “to hell with it” and quit the guild.

Personally I prioritize player choice over a guild’s power to control its players and their loot. I will be avoiding any ML guilds as I find the system inherently unfair and biased. I’ll run with NBG any day and I’ll be fine with that. It’s simply not wanting players to fall into the trap of a guild that funnels into its A-team more than it is willing to support its other members. And no, I don’t believe it’s done maliciously, not in most cases, but it is not a particularly fruitful environment.

Yuyukoyay

Caeryl wrote: »

I don’t understand your obsession with ML and this “who hurt you” question. It doesn’t take first hand experience to know that you shouldn’t go near a downed power line.

It's mostly just some garbage asmonbald uses to try to stand up for ML. It doesn't actually have any meaning as it's not an actual defense for the system being potentially flawed.

RahkstarRPG

but there is high potential for abuse that you can’t just pretend isn’t there.

Never said there isn't potential for abuse, there are recourses for when it is, and you can't deny that some other people in this thread have been extremely melodramatic in their depiction of master looter systems, and anyone who might be in support of them. Such as...

Repercussions of ML is people steal from 40 players for hours worth of time wasted. Which can lead to thousands of people quitting the game because people keep forcing ML so they can steal what they want.

As if those 40 people would stick around in that guild if their guild leader did this. Why would you join a PuG using master loot unless there were clear rules laid out beforehand about how it will be distributed? That's just ridiculous. And were those rules not followed, that leads us to...

If someone gets a rare drop, and decides to keep it and drop guild, well it’s not like you don’t know their username. It’s not as though you can’t ban that player from your guild events. It’s not as though telling other guilds about that event won’t make them wary of accepting that player on a raid. Word of mouth, reputation, behavior. All that will actually have some weight in Ashes.

And the same can be said for any guild/person who abuses a master looter system, not sure how that's an argument against either side? That would basically be the time of an entire raid wasted because of one person. Same exact situation as the last poster suggests, except at least the person who gets to go "fuck you I got mine" isn't a guild leader, which is better, I guess?

Now say you’re a player in a raid with ML. You’re a dps, been in some passable raid gear for a while and have been carrying your weight. You’re not a “regular” but you raid pretty often with a B-group. The boss drops a legendary mat that you need to have a really significant gear upgrade to finally boost your dps into a potential range to get on the A-group. You’ve got DKP built up and gold just in case, but there’s an A-group dps regular who wants it to repair the gear on his alt healer. So I ask, how many times is it acceptable that first player leave without the mats they need for their gear upgrade? Is it ok if the MLooter prioritizes the A-team multiple times? It’s better for the guild, right? Do you find it acceptable to exclude individuals all in the name of “it’s best for the guild”.

An alt is not an A-team member, and it would never be acceptable for an alt to get mats to *repair* gear over a main getting mats for *new* gear. That's frankly a ridiculous example. If a guild were to act as such, you'd likely figure that out well before you've built up the DKP to actually be in that situation, and you could find a new one.

This isn’t even an example of a MLooter being corrupt, but it’s absolutely demoralizing as the player who gets constantly skipped over. And what exactly can that player do? They need the materials to improve. They complain about being skipped over in the guild and probably get gkicked for arguing with an officer? They complain to other guilds who do the same thing to their own players? Or they just say “to hell with it” and quit the guild.

The fact that you list "complain to other guilds that do this" as a major recourse tells me that, despite your protests, you really do believe that there are more guilds that would abuse this system than use it properly.

Personally I prioritize player choice

Could have fooled me, considering we're discussing removing a choice from players in this here thread...

Toxic people are going to be toxic regardless, and you wouldn't want to be in those guilds unless you were already part of their in-group regardless. Do you really think one instance of getting gear before getting kicked out is going to make that much of a difference in these situations? There will be as many guilds with good intentions that lose gear to greener-pastures members as there would be bad guilds that abuse master looter if you force personal loot on the entire player base, and people will still be getting kicked from guilds for not following their rules.

Jexz

@Caeryl Some guilds have a set point system and if more than one player needs and has the points for the item they roll off for it. This can be better for the guild than the one guy who gets lucky 3X and starts "over-enchanting" When the guild could maybe reach another break point and start clearing faster for more loot.

What is important is you find out the ML rules before you join the guild. There should be no grey areas.

Both systems have a place in the game.

Yuyukoyay

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

Personally I prioritize player choice

Could have fooled me, considering we're discussing removing a choice from players in this here thread...

You are advocating removing player choice in the long run. With PL with free trade it will be the entire guild's choice to work together. With ML there is no choice. You just hope things work out no matter how stupid the metrics may be for determining how you get stuff is. Only one person gets a choice removing everyone elses.

So overall what we want is actual player choice. Not the illusion of it.

RahkstarRPG

With ML there is no choice. You just hope things work out no matter how stupid the metrics may be for determining how you get stuff is. Only one person gets a choice removing everyone elses.

This is just such a ridiculous statement I don't even really know how to respond.

You act like guild leaders are all-powerful officials with the ability to control people.

If a guild leader does this, they won't have a guild anymore.

If you don't agree with the metrics of a guild's looting rules, find a different guild. This will be the same whether master looter exists or not.

Jexz

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Only one person gets a choice removing everyone elses.

The Irony

Dicdonya

Caeryl wrote: »

In a personal loot system, it is quite literally impossible for one person to screw everyone over, because they are not holding all the loot. Unless they're a master gatherer, they can't even get the best material loot from boss drops.

And honestly, who cares when that person joined? They cleared the content just as everyone else did. Do you really think GMs and Loot Masters don't play favorite constantly?

As I already said, in ML all it takes is one person acting in bad faith and all the loot is suddenly gone or funnel off to their friends. In a Personal Loot System, you will never have to worry about having loot stolen from you. Everyone else could run off with their own drops and you'd still have something to show for your time. The whole point is so no one ever walks away with nothing because of another player.

I’m sorry but your first sentence is just plain wrong based on your description of personal loot.

If I understood you right, a boss might normally drop 5 items let’s say. Master loot would give those 5 items to one player to distribute. You then have to hope that one player is good and honest and gives those items out based on some agreed upon method of need.

Personal loot would take those 5 items and randomly distribute them among the group, assuredly to 5 different players. Now if players that get the random roll loot don’t need the item, but others do, you have to now hope up to 5 players are good and honest enough to distribute those items amongst the group based on some pre determined method of need.

So now there are 5 chances to get screwed over instead of one. Do you not see that as an issue?

Now the reason I brought up a new guild member is because a new guild member will almost certainly have less affection and affiliation to the guild than a long time member, thus would logically have a greater chance of being greedy instead of selfless towards the group. I never said a new member shouldn’t get loot, so not sure why you argued that, I was simply asking who would be more likely to act in the own interest if they were awarded some super awesome item during a raid. A new member, or a guild master/officer who has a vested interest in keeping the guild happy and raiding successfully.

Based on your last paragraph it seems you want the participation trophy personal loot system of wow, and that I wholly disagree with. Especially in a game where most everything is sellable. That will just create over supply and a significantly lower feeling of excitement and accomplishment when you do finally get that thing you wanted.

Once again in a game where items are not bop like Wow, the drive towards greed will be far higher and lead to plenty of drama when a guildy who gets personal loot you need but they don’t, won’t give it to you because they want the money instead. What reason would they have to give it to you if it’s their personal loot? No other reason than why a guild master would give you loot in a master loot situation, because they are a good person or acting towards the benefit of the guild.

Yuyukoyay

So basically you are just ignoring that the same thing can happen in ML but at a much more devastating effect than in PL. I'd rather trust the 5 randoms than one persons whims. At least the 5 randoms will have no bias also if even something drops not tied to equipment but to cosmetics. PL already dealt with it while ML's choice might destroy the guild.

To any reasonable person ML is just garbage. Let's move to the future and not use systems most MMO's left behind decades ago.

RahkstarRPG

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

To any reasonable person ML is just garbage.

This is why I can’t take you seriously at all. You casually toss out insults at anyone who disagrees with you and insist you’re the only reasonable person in this thread.

Meanwhile, we’re over here saying if you don’t like ML, just don’t join an ML guild. It’s the simplest thing in the world. You’ll literally never come in contact with the system unless you choose to do so.

Oh, wait, I still find your assertion that WoW was a dead game because of ML and PL brought people back one of the funnier takes I’ve ever heard about it, considering their sub numbers don’t reflect that in the slightest.

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