Diversity & Inclusion

Hello there!

Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.

I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).

Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.

I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.

I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?

Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.

I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.

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Beck Altarr

suprvilln wrote: »

Hello there!

Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.

I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).

Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.

I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.

I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?

Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.

I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.

I would say there is a catch 22 here. Does a game culturally appropriate things from cultures that are out side the game and face that back lash or does the game decide that in this world/universe we are given choices that exist because the lore of the game didn't have certain peoples evolve or certain styles of dress/appearance and face the back lash of not being "inclusive" when there are races in games that don't exist in the real world.

It's a no win, because someone will always point out that some Hair Style is from a specific culture and no one from that culture should have it or access to it.

I agree there should be lots of variation that everyone has equal access to, regardless of character color, race or anything else. It's a game, games we play to escape the B.S. of the real world. Let's not start bringing the B.S of the real world into the games. It wont end well for anyone and it will ruin the fun for everyone.

Yuyukoyay

It has more to do with most players are probably going to be white so white is going to be the most represented color wise. It's not really bringing down that there will be black options. There is absolutely no way color wise that there will be a competitive amount of black player characters. There just isn't enough black people in society who are hardcore enough players for this game for that to be possible. The majority of people who pick black characters are generally black in RL with a few outliers.

I'm for having as many black feature customizations as they can fit to be in the game. If I want to make Dennis Rodman that should be a choice. I just can't tell you how many people playing the game will actually choose them.

NPC wise it's probably going to match each area.

2for4Sausag3ggMcMuff

Most likely, the playable races are targeted towards archetypes that people can identify with. "Vek are orcs that aren't super brutish and dream about the stars!?!?! what a bunch of dreamers im a dreamer too" type thing.

I think they're doing a pretty good job reaching out to the middle eastern community with the Vaelune, I've seen games do a good job of giving cultures shout outs adding Djinn "middle eastern spirits" and Iwa "african spirits" like a "yeah we see u" type thing and thats kinda cool.

The main thing is as soon as you see dwarves and elves, you are in norse mythology realm which has its own set of stories and its kinda gonna be geared in that direction. It would be cool however to find a way to create a badass story around a race of black people with some kickass lore built around it within the scope of norse mythology, but i haven't seen it done yet. ( if anyone has some examples of it existing plz share and maybe we can steal the idea) Since it hasn't been done yet, it's a worthy task of someone taking on. With Norse mythology ur kinda workin with the foundation ur workin with.

Skin sliders are our best friend, i am neon pasty white and any resemblance of a tan on my character wouldn't sit right with me. ^-^

Marcet

I play orc and im a white dude, the inmersion is the same, I understand your post tho. Maybe devs can do something about it.

Beekeeper

2for4Sausag3ggMcMuff wrote: »

It would be cool however to find a way to create a badass story around a race of black people with some kickass lore built around it within the scope of norse mythology, but i haven't seen it done yet.

Would feel pretty distasteful in my opinion.

GodsThesis

Caeryl wrote: »

GodsThesis wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

GodsThesis wrote: »

I never felt excluded because the game didn't include my skin color or race of people. This idea seems very weak to me. I think people are stronger than that and I think OP you are stronger than that too. You shouldn't let some fantasy games make you feel uneasy because they didn't include your people. It's just fiction.

I also think it's fine if the 8 "white classes" are just that. That doesn't mean they are all the same or do not have cultural diversity. For example, Italians,Irish, the British, the French, Germans, and other Euroethnic races generally are considered white, but they culturally differ from each other.

There are 195 countries in the world with their own regions, including everyone would be impossible. Forced diversity is not diversity. It's the illusion of it.

However, we don't know much of the lore yet, if at all really. There isn't really much to go off of. I wouldn't want the lore/gameworld to change due to diversity/inclusion. It should fit the philosophy/scope of those in charge to build what they think is the best MMO experience.

Also let's be real man, these tulnar have been underground for God knows how long. They haven't seen sunlight in ages. If any ingame-race's skin color would be all white, it'd probably be them. Some of em do be reptiles and the like though.

Ok so.. this post really encompasses all that’s wrong with eurocentric game cultures. It’s not about being “strong enough” to block off feeling anything about being ignored in a game. There’s a lot of unintentional bias the comes from people, and part of that bias manifests as lack of representation in popular media.

That's quite a blanket statement saying "unintentional bias". That could literally mean anything, at least be somewhat specific. I also don't rely on popular media. Remember that you quoted me and are talking to an individual, not just the general population.

To clarify on this point specifically, it’s the “white is default” mentality. Basically, if I start describing a character by their profession, their clothes, their personality, etc, people will generally see all of those things on a white man up until they’re specifically told that the character is a black woman. It also sometimes ends up with people being asked to justify why a character “was made black” when they just.. are black.

I actually sort of see it in the original post too, in describing the distinct races as “white” when they pretty clearly pull from real world cultures all over the world. Granted yes, three are white/european/Tolkien inspired. But like I said, in a pure fantasy world, especially one that’s brand new, nothing is set in stone. It’s the best place to explore a wide variety of cultures, and Ashes is doing that!

I think they’re on the right track, I just don’t think totally dismissing OP’s concerns is the right route when the gaming industry does tend to be a little bit toxic. It’s healthy caution, at this point.

TL;DR I could easily suggested color slider for skin/ customization but others did it well, I was offering a better underlying reason/ alternative idea (in my mind), not completely dismissing OP's concerns. All colors = good. And all numbers = quick google searches. Also person implied my post is a problem so I had to explain it's not
=========================

I will clarify for you then for what I said, just so we're clear: if you are going to promote caution, at least be cautious yourself instead of carelessly implicating my post as part of a problem you stated, when it's not.

I could easily have suggested what others have stated about skin color slider/ characterization (in fact it immediately came to mind), but others did it pretty well. So I chose not to. It's not a hard solution to come up with.

I also did not completely dismiss his idea. I addressed the underlying reasons for providing what I thought was a better idea. Why live in fear of games when one could easily not let the fictional races bother him or her. Then he/she can simply focus on enjoying the game. That is likely what all of us want to do in the end.

Sure, you probably are right in being cautious, but then each and everyone one of my gah dang post would be this dam long at minimum, not sure if anyone wants to deal with that, or even me.

In my normal life experiences when someone describes a person, their skin color is usually described. "Whiteness" as a default may just be because of the majority. It could also be that "default" changes depending on the continent/ country/region. There's nothing wrong with a default. People will just normally change the default of the described person when they meet them.

My point is one has to start a concept somewhere and somehow, it's only natural to change it when there's new information. It's not necessarily racist or whatever to default to a person. All concepts have to start somewhere and will change based on what people learn. This in my mind is a matter of principle/logic ,not that of human reasoning, but more akin to natural law or a natural progression in thinking. I think it's a better alternative than saying "whiteness" or "white is default mentality".

Here's a counter-example for you, let's say I was Chinese, and I am in China looking and describing (without mention of skin color) for x person cause she/he wandered somewhere and does not regularly look at texts. Do you really believe that person I was asking would default to a white person or more likely the 1.4 billion other Chinese people (rhetorical question)? Could do the same example and parameters for India too. That's 2.8 billion people combined, almost a third of the world. Asian countries tend to be more homogenous than the West too.

For reference, there's about 1.2-1.3 ( I am being generous) billion people in The West. I don't think your "white is default" mentality idea holds up that well.

. There isn't anything wrong with hypothetically starting with a white person, when 72.4% of Americans and 85.7% of Europeans are caucasian. It's an incredibly high chance the person being thought of, without mention of skin color, is white, and if not just reimagine the hypothetical person when told a different skin color, nothing wrong with that.

There's a natural progression of thought when a person is trying to imagine/perceive a concept or person based on incoming information

So would you really blame "white is default" as if there's some unspoken taboo or there's something wrong imagining a white person? I don't think that's as reasonable as one would think. Though I recognize that it can be someone's answer, I don't think it's a sufficient one.

Linstead

suprvilln wrote: »

Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.

Dwarves are very much Tolkien inspired (which he took from Germanic folklore). Other races and cultures do have mythology for "small people," (for instance Pygmies) but high fantasy Dwarves are very much their own thing, grounded in their own lore, created by a very British White male based on very Germanic white people mythology. There have been Dwarves that are extremely tanned or dark (hell in WoW there are Wildhammer Dwarves which represent a more native american style of culture and there are Dark Iron Dwarves which are black because they were born from volcanic rock, there are even Robot/Elemental dwarves that never received the "curse of flesh"), but most are white because that's just how Tolkien envisioned them and that's what he took from the Germanic folklore.

What you are asking for is something entirely different. If you want some other cultures mythological "small person" then that is not a dwarf. Ask for the Pombero (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pombero) or something.

Don't ask the devs to change established lore and culture because it doesn't fit your headcanon or fill up a diversity quota. No one wants that.

Titillater

jubilum wrote: »

... demanding they change their vision to fit current social issue instead of what the original concept was.

If their vision didn't pay respect to some of the current social issues we are facing today then I would be concerned. I highly doubt this is the case, though, and there will be sufficient diversity afforded to players at character creation. And if not it seems like a texture project that can be corrected without impacting anything related to lore, content, etc.

Titillater

LockedOut wrote: »

We're much more than just the color of our skin; we share a much deeper bond. We're all brothers, and sisters. We're all human.

Ah, yes! But don't forget the bond shared between slave and master. You are minimizing a legitimate issue that has permeated through society for thousands of years and is reflected in all forms of art, politics and social class. Open your eyes to systemic racism, don't normalize it because of legacy.

Samson1

Titillater wrote: »

LockedOut wrote: »

We're much more than just the color of our skin; we share a much deeper bond. We're all brothers, and sisters. We're all human.

Ah, yes! But don't forget the bond shared between slave and master. You are minimizing a legitimate issue that has permeated through society for thousands of years and is reflected in all forms of art, politics and social class. Open your eyes to systemic racism, don't normalize it because of legacy.

Titillater

Samson wrote: »

...

In this context I think a black person GIF would have been more appropriate. Denzel Washington has some really good ones out there, and Samuel Jackson has a nice library as well. I think there's a good one from pulp fiction you can use to replace our friend Ryan next time.

Titillater

Titillater wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

...

In this context I think a black person GIF would have been more appropriate. Denzel Washington has some really good ones out there, and Samuel Jackson has a nice library as well. I think there's a good one from pulp fiction you can use to replace our friend Ryan next time.

Actually disappointed Steve Harvey would be the best translation

Caeryl

GodsThesis wrote: »

<snipped for length>

I see your point. I suppose most of my issue comes from the community more than it does the devs. Seeing some of the replies far too quick to (basically) tell the OP to not mention race at all made me too hasty in judging your position on things.

I still disagree that someone can choose whether something bothers them, but I agree that there are other battles to fight and learning to let go is essential for keeping a healthy mentality.

Thanks for the discussion, really.

2for4Sausag3ggMcMuff

Titillater wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

...

In this context I think a black person GIF would have been more appropriate. Denzel Washington has some really good ones out there, and Samuel Jackson has a nice library as well. I think there's a good one from pulp fiction you can use to replace our friend Ryan next time.

Now we just high five and say "Skin Color!". Hold up my black millionaire boss is callin me. He callin me.

I have to work this weekend can't high five. Sorry guys

Beeper

This thread is going nowhere fast.

I'm all for diversity and inclusion, and I want people to be able to make characters that look like them and that they can relate to - if that's what they so desire.

suprvilln wrote: »

I can make a darker skinned dwarf, but will I have to choose a dwarf with straight hair? and if I get my dwarf to look how I want, will I be able to interface with other NPC dwarven characters of color? will the story allow for that? or will it just be my black dwarf in an island of white dwarves? That's more what I was getting toward...

I think this was OP's main point, that a lot of people have overlooked. Very little has been released about the games lore, so a lot of the points made in this thread are purely vague extrapolation based on concept art. So long as it makes sense and is consistent throughout the cultures, why can't there be black dwarves or asian looking dwarves? Certainly you can't capture all cultures and ethnicity in the world, but as long as the culture makes sense, who gives two flying frogs what color they are?

Except for the Ren'Kai. Don't touch the Ren'Kai, they're beautiful how they are.

Nagash

Luthienstorm

suprvilln wrote: »

Hello there!

Let's get this out of the way. I'm black. I was born black, raised black, and I feel I will be black for quite some time. I love gaming and exploring new worlds and new stories in those games.

I have played only a handful of MMOs (BDO, ESO, GW1, GW2, Archeage, LOTRO) and only 1 has included a specific black ethnicity (ESO with Redguards) and 1 has a general human race with multiple ethnicities that you could create but can actually fit into a specific culture (GW2 with Elonans and Canthans).

Even GW2 stumbled at first because for 4 years after launch the only hair options for black characters was an afro, dreadlocks, and a bald head (tacky and lacks creativity). It was only when they geared up towards their Path of Fire release that they included more diverse hairstyles and I was absolutely moved that a game I had loved since beta had finally thought to make a wider array of their player base feel more included.

I can't even imagine the lack of representation felt by Asian, Latinx, Indigenous, etc people.

I am super excited to play Ashes but looking at the races it looks like there are 8 white races and 1 kind of culturally ambiguous race that is meant to be a catch all for "non-white". Is it a big ask to think outside of the box more to include more culturally diverse characters to allow more people to be able to see themselves represented in the game without being locked to one character race?

Like my main will be a dwarf for SURE. I have always loved dwarves. But why is there never any non-white dwarf races? Dwarves can be seen in mythology for cultures all around the world, not just in western Europe. Why do we keep clinging to these tropes? it is an honest question because this is something that serves as a barrier for immersion for myself and for many players of color. There are lots of cool stories there that are just waiting to be explored.

I look forward to the responses I will get and the sad thing is I am ready to be demeaned and the berated by people for asking something so simple lol.

I'm 36 years old, my ethnicity is African American/Caucasion. First your question isn't simple. In fact it took you several paragraphs to reach your question. Second there are only 360 million native english speakers in the world and roughly 1,132 million English speakers in the world. This means America and European culture are the most well known and most recognized cultures in the world . These cultures dominated the last twelve hundred years of the worlds history. 70% of the NFL are of African American descent. During slavery, the strongest biggest slaves were bred in the hopes of creating bigger and stronger slaves. When a portion of ethnicity is bred for a purpose it creates certain changes. African Americans are highly represented in American Football games because they are highly represented in life. Do great and be recognized as great. Understand history and how it played a role.

You don't see many black authors writing epic fantasy that are remembered throughout the decades because there haven't been any. People write about what they live and the lives of others. (Fantasy is a bit harder to write about when your culture has been oppressed and keep in mind slavery "officially ended in Africa in the 1930s...but there were still slaves) In the 1990s when I was growing up in a small town of 2,000 a few children were still taught racial slurs by their parents. But I had it good I didn't grow up during the civil rights movement. I didn't grow up in 1954 when the supreme court overturned Brown vs The Board of Education allowed African Americans to go to "white" schools. Chinese use to call Japanese dwarves. Your assumptions that all cultures had mythology that wouldn't offend other cultures is just negligence, do your homework. JRR Tolkien is considered the father of modern fantasy or high fantasy. That's the bar. No one has reached it yet. Game of Thrones and Harry Potter were good but they weren't the phenome that Lord of the Rings became.

You lump Asians together in feeling under represented. When it comes to generalizations Koreans hate Japanese. They're...historical reasons and cultural stereotypes that parents have often passed on to their children because of this. Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese can easily tell each other apart but it is often a difficulty for westerners. (I've lived in asian countries for seven years of my life so far) I could write a paper on why a great deal of the Korean people feel this way.

Ethnicity isn't culture...and culture matters far more than ethnicity. Yet, you have an issue with ethnicity being under-represented. Do you understand how difficult it would be to accurately portray the different subtleties in genetics among different nations? No...you don't...you feel bad. I'm sorry you feel bad, but it's not AoE's job to fix it. Make a fantasy world worthy of the world remembering. Don't ask someone to fix the world for you. If they get it right great. If not...well...I'm mixed...half the time if I go to a barber they screw up my hair...because they don't get many mixed customers. They're use to black/white/korean/phillipino hair. It's what they know. JRR Tolkien...it's what the world knows. Are you going to make something better or just ask others to scratch your itch? Fantasy...doesn't have to reflect reality, but it's a lot easier to write when you align it with other forms of main stream fiction. Otherwise...you're asking for an original epic...and that's a big ask.

EdH

This question / thread makes me question whether i want to play this game at all. It is a fantasy game. FANTASY!

NelsonRebel

Nagash wrote: »

^^ This all the way

I do not want politics in a video game. That type of thinking is what directly ruins the integrity and immersion of a world.

Besides AoC is more than likely already about as diverse as it gets. We're getting a lizard race and hawaiin dwarves.

Plixen

No to black toons!!!!
Just kidding, really hope you they make it possible for you and others to get the skin colour you want, atleast if it's remotely close to the fantasy lore thingie.

"and I feel I will be black for quite some time."
This made me giggle, well put

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