Loot System

There has been a lot of HYPE for this game as of the last month or so, hence, it has reached my ears/eye.
I started to read the wiki and watch the varies youtube vids to learn more.

As someone who has played the largest population MMO currently in play, I have some experience with the loot system and especially MASTER LOOTER aka NINJA Loot system.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE that all these experienced MMO developers think that a loot system based on MASTER LOOTER is a good idea!!

The largest population MMO switched off of MASTER LOOTer about two years ago to the great cheers of all players! It is now using what they call Personal Loot along with a bonus roll if the player chooses.

So, my experience with Master Looter aka Master NINJA.
1. My guild had to use a system called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) to keep guild members happy (honest guild)
2. Some guilds had rules where the officers where geared up first (run from those guilds)!
3. PUGs is where the NINJA comes into play, when its time to distribute the loot, after three or more hours of killing and being killed, the LOOT MASTER conveniently disconnects! All the hours are wasted, poof goes the loot.

Given the nature of the loot drops in AOC, rarity of gear drop and high need for high quality crafting material, the opportunity for GREED/NINJA and just plain Dishonesty abounds!

How in everything that is right with the world can the Chief Muck Muck think that a loot system based on Master Looter is a good idea? It is lazy thinking.

This will create a nightmare for the GMs chasing and trying to restore stolen loot not to mention endless DRAMA in guilds.
Has no one learned anything from playing the early 2000 MMO's?

If the loot system is Master Looter, I for one will not waste my time because I already know what will happen, never again will I waste my time in a game using that system.

The distribution of loot from World Boss kills is another story. It also needs more thought put into it or the very least, testing.

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Caeryl

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

If someone gets a rare drop, and decides to keep it and drop guild, well it’s not like you don’t know their username. It’s not as though you can’t ban that player from your guild events. It’s not as though telling other guilds about that event won’t make them wary of accepting that player on a raid. Word of mouth, reputation, behavior. All that will actually have some weight in Ashes.

And the same can be said for any guild/person who abuses a master looter system, not sure how that's an argument against either side? That would basically be the time of an entire raid wasted because of one person. Same exact situation as the last poster suggests, except at least the person who gets to go "fuck you I got mine" isn't a guild leader, which is better, I guess?

No, the situation isn’t remotely the same when complaints are brought against the leadership of a guild for allocating loot unfairly. That guild still has its group to raid with, it can still acquire more materials even if a handful of B-teams bail because they’ve been continuously passed over in looting rights. As long as the cliq feeds each other, whoever fills doesn’t really matter much to them, and since they would have the strongest gear due feeding each other over other guildmates, their need for fills continues going down.

Meanwhile the player who gave their group the middle finger cannot farm any more of that loot because players know not to trust them. Without being trusted by the raiding community, they can’t get groups. Without the ability to get groups to raid with, they cannot get the materials they need to repair that drop they got when it breaks. Even better, the moment they drop guild, they’re free game to be attacked for that rare material they ran off with.

In which scenario is the offending party more severely penalized?

Yuyukoyay

I like how you ignore all of the possible concerns of my argument and then bring up things almost entirely unrelated to it quite often.

I mean the downsides with ML are factual. What you are going to have to argue is how they are somehow not bad against a system with no downsides. Meanwhile PL with free trade has never been done before in a game. So you don't really have any evidence that it won't work. You can give a good guess I suppose but I don't have any confidence you will come to a relatively correct educated guess.

Having it be a choice won't work. It's a lazy fix and won't solve the actual problem. Nor is it equivalent with having a choice in game against a system like PL with free trade.

Majorpandapants

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

So basically you are just ignoring that the same thing can happen in ML but at a much more devastating effect than in PL. I'd rather trust the 5 randoms than one persons whims. At least the 5 randoms will have no bias also if even something drops not tied to equipment but to cosmetics. PL already dealt with it while ML's choice might destroy the guild.

In your system I would not be willing to take anyone other than guildies or trusted friends into a raid if I needed to fill spots. If outsiders are not tied to my guild in anyway and if they ran off with a drop the only thing I can do is go kill them on repeat. When you have a guild the GM tends to not screw his people to much because they can leave. There will always be internal politics in a guild and the GM and officers tend to get the best gear first, but they should also be the ones that are in the most raids and have the most participation. If you as the GM cheat enough guild members over raid drops to destroy the guild nothing is stopping the disenfranchised players from starting a new guild and screwing over the old one. I spent a fair amount of time in EQ1 training mobs on an old guild to wipe their raid because I hated the guild leader. In this game with open pvp you could manage to do so much more to screw them over.

Dicdonya

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

So basically you are just ignoring that the same thing can happen in ML but at a much more devastating effect than in PL. I'd rather trust the 5 randoms than one persons whims. At least the 5 randoms will have no bias also if even something drops not tied to equipment but to cosmetics. PL already dealt with it while ML's choice might destroy the guild.

To any reasonable person ML is just garbage. Let's move to the future and not use systems most MMO's left behind decades ago.

You didn’t quote me but it seems you’re replying to me so if I’m wrong I apologize.

At what point did I ever deny that a guild master could screw the raid over?? Seriously point it out where I said that, you can’t. Please try to read and discuss what I actually said, not what you think I mean.

How is trusting 5 peoples whims better than one? How will they not have bias? Are you under the impression that only the righteous members of a guild will get the items others need/want? Are you under the impression that only guild masters can have friends who they want to see get stuff?

Sorry the only unreasonable one seems to be you. I think if you want random loot distribution, go ahead, but I’d rather trust one guild member instead of many to give me loot I need and earn.

RahkstarRPG

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I mean the downsides with ML are factual. What you are going to have to argue is how they are somehow not bad against a system with no downsides. Meanwhile PL with free trade has never been done before in a game. So you don't really have any evidence that it won't work. You can give a good guess I suppose but I don't have any confidence you will come to a relatively correct educated guess..

"I can't prove it will work, but you can't prove it won't work, so we should do it because my idea is better than yours. Oh, and here's a personal insult, because... because."

We've listed factual downsides of PL as well. You just ignore them, just as you claim I'm doing with ML.

Except I'm not. Because I'm saying we can have both. And you can just not interact with people that use ML.

Except...

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Having it be a choice won't work. It's a lazy fix and won't solve the actual problem.

You haven't given any reasoning for this whatsoever, besides spewing hatred about ML and anyone who even considers it a plausible avenue. You call anyone that even considers it greedy and mal-intentioned, ignoring that there are literal thousands of guilds that have used it with little to no drama. The "actual problem" is your own personal problem with the system, not some objective reality, no matter how much you insist otherwise.

Yuyukoyay

You also forget that my way is superior for all group types regardless of how they got together. Whether it be a pug, guild, or friends. By arguing for a choice including master loot you deny any negative downsides to master loot. Despite them being the most extreme downsides any system in a video game could ever have.

You are also ignoring that the gear will be distributed in PL immediately. This doesn't mean that you are trusting 5 people's whims. It means it's their choice what to do from there. This is where the suspicion of abuse to control people comes from. It's why your argument is not an honest one.

The randoms chosen cannot inherently have a preconceived bias because it was chosen at random. Any preconceived alliances related to gear is up to you regarding that.

What you are incorrectly determining as a failure of the system is not a failure. Those players who you determined didn't deserve the items that got them anyway. Well you were just wrong. That entire mindset needs to go because it is not what older MMO's were founded on which is their goal to recreate to some extent in this game.

Gear wasn't even a thought when those games were made because it was assumed the community wouldn't abuse it and distribute it relatively evenly among a group. That is how they worked for the most part.

It was only since WoW those systems were abused and used in ways they were not intended. That is why so little of playerbase completed anything in those days. They mostly just left the game because of "drama". What they mean as "drama" is someone either Ninja looted or stole a relatively rare raid drop and /gquit.

The high completion rate of WoW classic is proof of this.

Caeryl

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I like how you ignore all of the possible concerns of my argument and then bring up things almost entirely unrelated to it quite often.

I mean the downsides with ML are factual. What you are going to have to argue is how they are somehow not bad against a system with no downsides. Meanwhile PL with free trade has never been done before in a game. So you don't really have any evidence that it won't work. You can give a good guess I suppose but I don't have any confidence you will come to a relatively correct educated guess.

Having it be a choice won't work. It's a lazy fix and won't solve the actual problem. Nor is it equivalent with having a choice in game against a system like PL with free trade.

We can’t pretend PL is a perfect system because there’s no such thing. But it has a significantly lower risk of abuse and the impact of abuse is much less severe than ML. NBG is fairly close, and I do like bid systems as well since well, money.

Masterloot is really the only system I do not see as worth keeping. It’s functionality can be done in any system with some cooperation, while lacking the inherent issues of ML.

Jexz

Leroher

Jexz wrote: »

I'm stealing you this my friend

Dicdonya

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

You also forget that my way is superior for all group types regardless of how they got together. Whether it be a pug, guild, or friends. By arguing for a choice including master loot you deny any negative downsides to master loot. Despite them being the most extreme downsides any system in a video game could ever have.

You are also ignoring that the gear will be distributed in PL immediately. This doesn't mean that you are trusting 5 people's whims. It means it's their choice what to do from there. This is where the suspicion of abuse to control people comes from. It's why your argument is not an honest one.

The randoms chosen cannot inherently have a preconceived bias because it was chosen at random. Any preconceived alliances related to gear is up to you regarding that.

What you are incorrectly determining as a failure of the system is not a failure. Those players who you determined didn't deserve the items that got them anyway. Well you were just wrong. That entire mindset needs to go because it is not what older MMO's were founded on which is their goal to recreate to some extent in this game.

Gear wasn't even a thought when those games were made because it was assumed the community wouldn't abuse it and distribute it relatively evenly among a group. That is how they worked for the most part.

It was only since WoW those systems were abused and used in ways they were not intended. That is why so little of playerbase completed anything in those days. They mostly just left the game because of "drama". What they mean as "drama" is someone either Ninja looted or stole a relatively rare raid drop and /gquit.

The high completion rate of WoW classic is proof of this.

It’s clear at this point you have no idea what you’re even saying. You say people mostly left WoW because of loot drama, which is patently false since WoW grew Immensely during the period of time where personal loot was not even an option.

Also if PL was so awesome and master loot supposedly scared everyone away, why was classic a huge success and brought back a TON of old players, including me? Also you say classic wow’s completion rate is somehow proof in your favor yet once again classic has no personal loot. So how in the hell does that prove PL is good?

Classic completion rates are because there has been more than a decade for people to figure the game out and know exactly how to beat each boss in the most efficient way.

In fact it would be easier to argue that personal loot which came with mists of pandaria was indeed the beginning of the end for wow, as all data points to the fact that the game has been in constant decline since Mists, which would be the opposite if master loot was somehow the driving factor behind unsubs in the previous expansions.

Anyways I’m done responding to you, it’s clear you won’t change your mind and like welfare epics and participation trophies, that’s fine you do you, I just hope this game will never bend to your demands.

Zhab

Hello everyone. Unlike most of you guys my mmo experience is fairly limited, so this whole topic was informative to me.

In scientific circles their are various grades of evidences and "anecdotal evidences" is trash tier. It seems clear to me that some people had wonderful personal experiences with ML and therefor have an hard time seeing any issues with it while others had horrific personal experiences and therefor have an hard time seeing how such a system can even be tolerated. Be careful how much credits you give to personal experience... as weird or counter intuitive as that may sound.

The Asmongold video was quite interesting because of the chat that can be seen in it. The streamer is naturally defending ML and you would expect his legion of fans to agree with him. But even among his personal legion of fans you can see a surprisingly high number of people hating on ML. This tells me that the community at large is at the very best divided on the merits of ML system.

The devs could be taking an hard stance on looting systems and as players we could only hope that the choice they end up making happens to align with our personal preference, but I have to respect the decision to offer multiple choices. As it stands to reason to me that different looting system would perform better or worst according to different scenarios, situations or type of player groupings.

But I have to say that the bidding system is growing on me the more I think about it. The key component being that the bid money goes to those who get nothing. Under other system it is quite possible to walk away from a raid or event with absolutely nothing. It is also quite possible for this to repeat over and over again (for whatever reasons) while you see other players being rewarded with loot.

Even if leaders of powerful guilds or in game market leaders are likely to have way more gold with which to bid on items, in the end that big money being thrown around ends up in the pockets of poor players who can then make good use of it. The rich don't just claim the loot and add that to their existing fortune, they have to pay for every pieces (recirculating the gold around the community). The player may not get the legendary item but the massive gold payout from the epic bid wars could be use to buy a whole "great level" equipment set. Alternatively the gold could be use to buy materials and perhaps self craft an awesome item which is custom made for your character specifically. You could also use to gold to buy or invest into a freehold or other such things. But more importantly you could save it up and from raid to raid and eventually have the "war funds" to make that one massive bid to win a legendary item yourself even thou you are otherwise nothing special in the MMO world. The power players of the MMO might be winning such bids on the regular but even a nobody who puts in the time and efforts could eventually get there hands on a piece of it.

A purely RNG based looting system would also give every player a chance but it does have issues. Bidding does reward time and efforts as the gold used in bid had to come from somewhere. If you have several millions of gold to spend on bids you are clearly very invested in the game. You did not somehow get the legendary item on your first raid ever while being carried by the team all the way thanks to rotten luck giving everyone a bad taste in their mouth. On the flip side you could be very invested and be a prominent member of the MMO world but the RNG loot systems seemingly just hate your guts for some reason.

In this entire discussion the bidding system received little attention but I'm very curious to hear what the veterans have to say about it. Is there some fatal flaw that I'm not seeing ?

Caeryl

Zhab wrote: »

<snipped a bunch for length>

In this entire discussion the bidding system received little attention but I'm very curious to hear what the veterans have to say about it. Is there some fatal flaw that I'm not seeing ?

Issues with bid systems usually have more to do with how easy it is to generate gold in a game, than anything wrong with the bidding itself. With enemies in Ashes having Smart-Loot, gold won’t be dropping from most enemies, so there shouldn’t be too much gold flooding in from simple mob grinds. Hopefully this means inflation won’t go sky high as quickly as it does in other games.

Though since gold isn’t a dropped-on-death item, I have to wonder if banking it will be possible, and if so, would players be able to bid with funds from their bank?

Jexz

@Zhab The bid system favors people with big pockets and knowledge of market values. They can bid on everything below market value. Sell everything and come out on top of everyone else. Not necessarily a bad thing as the player is rewarded for market knowledge but anyone who doesn't is punished for not knowing market prices. I'd rather PL or NG in a pug or ML in a guild.(And that is why I personally don't see how this is even an argument there should be an option for both) In the case of a legendary dropping good chance no one will have the actual market prices saved up so who ever has the most gains big. So again if you have deep pockets youl'd probably want this system especially if you know market prices. If you don't have deep pockets you probably wont want this system. This is the one system I could do with out.

Zhab

@Jexz The big value here is that you do get something. You never ever get screwed over. From what I can see the ML system shine when in the hands of a trustworthy guild master of great integrity. If you have the privilege of being part of such a guild then great. Use ML.

As for pug or where trust might be an issue, personally I think I would rather use a system where I'm guarantied something rather than a system where I can get screwed by RNG over and over and over again (I have an history of horrible luck). It doesn't matter how deep someone's pockets are... if they keep dumping their gold on you you will eventually be able to out bid them at least once. You also get something even when the loot would otherwise be useless to you. You ALWAYS get something. You just spent 1-2 hours on that epic raid and you WILL get something to show for it. With the PL system you absolutely can be completely screwed over and leave with nothing.

On the flip side, say you do over pay for an item. Are you completely screwed over ? No, because you do indeed leave with the item you wanted. The other guy was richer than you but wasn't about to over pay for it. Allowing you to actually get the item. Again you do not walk away from a raid with nothing... ever. That is what appeals to me.

But regardless of which system is in use those who understand to market value of things will tend to be richer and richer player will tend to have better stuff regardless of who did the looting. I think this is unavoidable in a game where stuff isn't soul bound and freely tradable. I believe that if a player want to stand on top of the mmo from a resources stand point then that player has better learn the value of things. I cannot fathom a game designed in such a way where it is the clueless players standing at the top.

Side note: Just to be clear, I'm in favor of having choices. I'm not saying there should be one system that everyone has to use.

Zhab

Caeryl wrote: »

Though since gold isn’t a dropped-on-death item, I have to wonder if banking it will be possible, and if so, would players be able to bid with funds from their bank?

I have no idea on the specific of how things are currently designed, but I would imagine that it would be better for the poor players if the economic giants can duke it out with their entire fortune. The more insane the bids the greater the gold reward for the others. The more gold that was sleeping in a vault is recirculated into the economy.

That being said I seriously doubt that the rich and powerful would choose to use the bidding system. They are likely to be in positions where they get to be the loot master and therefore distribute any and all loot as they please. They may otherwise prefer an RNG system rather than risk having to spend a fortune on a bid. Might as well buy it on the market rather than bother raiding at that point.

With all that in mind. PL in pug might screw you over or maybe you'll win big. Bidding in pug among standard players will never ever screw you over but you also never win big either (every sweet loot being paid for). But in the case of a really rare item, poor players will probably still end up paying way less than market value for it. Especially if rich players do shy away from the bidding system.

Niraada

@Zhab I agree with your assessment, although there might be some technical limitations to implementing an integrated bidding solution for loot directly within the game's systems, and it might require some organisation on the part of the player base (a la the old GDKP runs in WoW, which I quite enjoyed back in the day).

I have yet to see a reasoned argument against players being able to choose which looting system they prefer when forming their groups, as it offers the most flexibility and player agency.

I've used Master Loot in the past and have never once had an issue, but I also don't participate in PuG raids where Master Loot has been designated. I think that each individual has a minimum level of responsibility to safeguard their own interests, and if there are those that choose not to be cautious or vocal about looting rules at the time of joining a group of strangers... While I won't say that they deserve what comes, I do have to question their level of forethought.

For me, most of my play time is in a guild environment with certain standards of conduct. I've seen guilds that had loot drama in them previously, and while some might see that as an example of why PL should be enforced, I don't agree. Again, I believe it comes back to individuals having a minimum level of responsibility to protect their own interests.

If you are in a guild that values loot more than it's members relationships, I'm not sorry to say that you've made a poor choice. While there are certainly situations that can crop up unexpectedly, if you're committing any significant amount of time to playing with the same group of people, for you not to have a general idea as to the group relationship dynamic is a tough sell for me.

If I believed (as some in this thread appear to) that every person I encounter is simply waiting for me to drop my guard in order to take advantage of me... that absolutely no one was trustworthy in any capacity, well... I'd probably play a single player game instead of Ashes.

Why?

Because most of bosses' loot will be gatherables. Gatherables you drop when you die, even as a non-combatant. All those people that I distrust would have one more incentive to kill me after the loot is distributed.

After all, it's not like you can teleport away.

Besides, if I'm truly that alone... I mean, it might as well be single player anyway.

So yeah. Let people choose their looting rules, and maybe exercise a little due caution.

Niraada

I felt like I should make a follow-up post about a subject I touched on, but wasn't the focus of my previous post. This isn't about the loot system directly, but about the idea of grouping with people you distrust.

PL is not a solution to ensuring people get loot fairly in Ashes even in PuGs for the simple reason that going into a dungeon or raid with people you don't trust is an easy way to get yourself killed and looted.

You clear the last boss, you get your drops, and now you're in the back end of a massive complex with a bunch of people you don't know, and someone tells you to give up your drops or they're going to kill you, or even just leave you there alone to try and get past the respawning trash mobs, how are you going to handle it?

You can't just teleport to safety.

Heck, one bad actor in that group could have some of his shady guildmates following him, waiting to ambush you. Non-combatant isn't going to protect you, and even if you fight back, you've still got a good chance of losing your drops on death.

Now what happens if they're also waiting at the nearest spawn to kill you again?

PL isn't going to protect your interests for you. If anything, I think it more likely to make people in PuGs easy targets.

Something for those who have a dismal view of humanity to think on.

Songcaller

I was unaware there are two definitions of Personal Loot.

The Personal Loot I referred to was where everyone gets loot. So all 40 People in a 40 Man Raid would gain loot, not some random people.

There is no loot system that can 100% protect what you have gained (Unless its an Item Drop).

I doubt PuGs will even be very common because of the Death Penalties associated with Ashes.

Niraada

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

My position is to remove ML and replace it with any system that has no downsides. PL with free trade is the only thing I got so far, but there can be other answers. I'm fine with any system where 1 player doesn't decide the entire system by themselves. Where the entire group has to decide as a team to do it. One that doesn't rely on the good will of a single person or risk catastrophic losses.

The raid can just kill you afterwards to take any drops you get regardless. Best not to rely on their goodwill to leave safely.

Zhab

@Niraada You bring up interesting point about "gatherables". I know that completed items can and will drop from raid and that those cannot be taken from you unless you are corrupted. But "gatherables" are indeed something very easily stolen.

@Neurath the modified PL system that people have been suggesting in this topic has been described as equivalent to using need before greed where everyone automatically selected need for everything. Except the system would spread the items around and make sure that a single player doesn't get everything out of extreme luck on distribution.

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