Serious concern/question about being a bad guy

*Since this thread is getting more attention and people know me from other games and are now wanting to join in the conversation then I will amend my opener here but still keep the original text for posterity sake as you read and catch up.

This thread wants to focus on in-game mechanics that already exist that will allow for good guys to choose to partake in a risk/reward situation and those bad guys that are the potential punishment waiting for them. This game offers much potential for discussion and that is all we want is an open discussion for ways to be bad, and no this thread is not promoting the killing of unwilling participants. Our version of pvp is the literal definition of player vs player on a more small scale version outside from guild/city raids. We are discussing a way for good guy players to seek risk and how bad guy players can be the counterpart*

I want to start this off by saying that I understand how taboo pvp is to a large portion of players. Most people want great story arc progression and maybe others are interested in pvp just enough for the rewards, achievements, gear etc. I would like to present another type of player, not necessarily a roleplay type person but a person who wants to be a bad guy. I want to know how this game will appeal to those of us who aren't looking for dungeon glory, who don't have time for world politics or a sense of life long goals... I want to discuss the person who likes being the bad guy, the guy who was raised with nothing given to them, who learned that the only way to get by is to take it from others and to inflict a little pain so others know how he/she feels.

I have watched some videos and read some articles/posts and I do feel like I have an entry-level understanding of this game's open-world pvp structure, but I feel like it is a far more punishing system, then it is a way to play the game. As stated above, I get that the vast majority of people aren't going to be interested in this but there are plenty of people who like being the bad guy and every good story or hero needs a bad guy. This game has the bounty hunter system and some guild and zone pvp but I have yet to see a full break down of actual pvp focused gameplay.

I don't want to just be a griefing player killer, but I do want some incentive to play a bad character that keeps the fancy lads and goody players on their toes. So far I see more in=game mechanics dedicated to punishing these types of actions and only allowing just a tiny taste of the bad life, I don't see anything that rewards players for taking this path. This game gives you religious arcs that lead to exclusive items, titles and even new skill augments. This game allows a player to build a restaurant in popular hunting areas to benefit the dedication of their time to crafting delicious food and planning a location to be the best source of buffs in that area but what about the bad guys?

Is there really no underground sub-faction that has rewards certain individuals for throwing a wrench into something? A reverse bounty system? An unholy religion that promotes being a bad guy? I mean look at some of the possible skill combos necromancer, trickster, assassin, charlatan, shadow lord... This game provides the bad guy prototypes but doesn't embrace the full potential? Please please please tell me that with all the love put into this game and all the "doing better than other mmos" doesn't mean that you have written off the classic villain player character in light of trying to making people a completely safe and comfortable feeling.

I know a lot of the devs in this game mention older mmo games as inspiration so I am sure you guys remember Ultima Online? You had a full on red player system that basically turned you into a different type of player. Will this game have something like this or is it only that internal system that punishes you for being bad by basically making you completely useless after so long so that you are no longer a threat to even a level 1 critter.

Can someone please link or explain something related to my questions/concerns? I would obviously love to hear from a dev or tester.

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Comments

Jubilum

Dr Jekyll wrote: »

I'm playing archeage unchanged on the fresh start server and after 2 months many guilds quit and most of my neighbors are gone. When there's no crime balance you have a world of murderous players. Typically these types of players will quickly gear up and go after easy targets, and mostly kill them for no other reason than to laugh about it. I find it humorous they cry about any realism that would occur for their actions in game. I hope all future games will bring a realist crime punishment system into action. How can you expect to do whatever you want without any consequences? My advice for you types, go play those dying games or ones just for mindless killing. Your play style is cancer for MMOs and only make up a very small percentage of the player base.

As an analyst, it comes down to crime balance and law structure for continuous healthy player growth.

The easiest and only way to solve the problem is not allow open world/non-consensual pvp. There is no other option, or the same thing will happen on most if not all of AoC servers. Some may take longer than others but eventually they will a succumb.

NelsonRebel

I think that steven already mentioned about the "Dark Gods" and the origins of corruption as well as thieves guild system, and caravans as incentives for playing as "The Bad Guy" that open up paths the more you progress in the game, and the more the game world is built and being progressed.

On top of that there is also the entire node system itself that already creates a friction of good and bad depending on what side of the fence you are on for a nodes progression and benifits.

Corruption is a PK deterent for griefing (and rightfully so) for un-flagged players. So as long as you are not griefing unflagged players you should be able to delve further into the religion of the dark gods that corrupted the world in the story and rp that with killing or stealing from other players.

We do know that there WILL also be evil
choices for quest and they will affect your world building.

I'm not sure if thats exactly what you were trying to ask

SSRogue

BlackBrony wrote: »

SSRogue wrote: »

Adaon wrote: »

To the developers credit here, I've heard a lot of good things in regards to some of those subjects from the AMA and other stuff I've listened to, so, hopefully they deliver on the ambition As far as suggestions for the pvp system, I think until I actually got a chance to play, it'd be difficult to give meaningful feedback. Either way, hopefully everyone has a productive dialogue .

We are just looking for a good conversation about things we would like to see and not be told that it doesn't fit the game's intent over and over. Just some ideas about ways to be bad that are not promoting griefing or unfair pk'ing on any kind. I think some good things have come up if you actually read through.

I don't think it's that it doesn't fit, but I feel it's like Intrepid is saying:

"we're making the best car ever!"

and then people suggest

"but why don't you make a truck, it's bigger"

I do get that it's selfish to want more, but this forum is being actively looked through for suggestions and feedback so that what this is.

SSRogue

2for4Sausag3ggMcMuff wrote: »

@FuryBladeborne where did he say a corruption system should be married with a reward system?

We gotta just start ignoring people who don't read through the posts and only repeat the same crap over and over.

SSRogue

Copperfield wrote: »

people seems to be forgetting that that bounty hunters are being implemented into the game.

Everyone keeps telling that corruption should not be rewarded and only be punished..

bounty hunters get rewarded... so should corrupted players in a mild form..

Example:

A corrupted player should get some reward by killing a bounty hunter imo..

if none goes corrupted, the bounty system will not work.

It is worth bringing up and even if you have an elected corruption where you become corrupted through a quest killing npcs and NEVER HARM AN INNCENT person then were is the harm in at the least discussing it? lol

SSRogue

loghan wrote: »

I've seen Steven say that the game will be able to track a great many things and provides for things like leader boards and achievement titles. The examples given on wiki is a title like server first for a world boss. But it would be a great add for the game to have hundreds of titles for the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
Example titles that your character can get stuck with and/or be proud to have (a title can be a bad thing too!)

Specifically kills that are Corruption causing, lawful kills would not count!
- Cowardly or Pathetic = Kill ## people who are a level 80% below yours in a week (i set a time limit such a week because if it's a never ending running tally then most any 10 year veteran would have this title eventually, but if you do this many in 1 week then clearly you are a douche bag worthy of this title, and the title is stuck above your head for all to see even when your shopping in town, all will know your shame! You can't toggle the title off!)
- Dishonorable = Kill ## people who are a level 40% below yours in a week
- Annoying = Kill ## Merchant/Vendor NPCs in a week
The above would be title most would hate having shown above their name, but tough, you earned it and now you dont have the option to turn off the title, for a set time or until maybe you do a quest to clean yourself you will walk around as "Drago the Pathetic" and everyone will know you got that title by ganking noobs.
- Malicious = Kill ## of player mounts (horses, turtles, stuffington, etc) in a week
- Outcast = Join and leave ## of Nodes or Guilds in a month

Some title are more elite, and require both a hgh level of karma as well as high fame, i.e. it's easy to be "bad" but to be "evil" means killing a whole nation. Or it's easy to get the title "Kind" but to be "Angelic" means saving a world from a demon lord.
- Glorious = During the life of your character be a general for ### successful node sieges
- Dread Lord = During the life of your character complete ### religious based quests that were defined as "evil" types of quests, kill this NPC, kill this religious leader, complete a quest to find and destroy a mythic ruby that held in it the power and love of the goddess of nature... etc, it would be a long list with high requirements.
- Wicked = Destroy ### of relgious artifacts that are catagorized as "good" religions
- Angelic = During the life of your character complete ### religious based quests that the devs have defined as good.
- Dark or Demon Lord = As a monster during a Monster Coin Event kill ### people

And of course we need lots of good titles:
- Kind = Complete ## bulletin board tasks in a week that involves saving animals
- Upstanding = Donate ### gold/embers to a religion or node construction project in a week
- Industrious = Complete ## construction projects at your node and Freehold
- Distinguished Lord = Complete a large number of multiple different types of Node objectives, donating to religions, providing mats in constructon projects, complete merchant quests, voting (more people vote when there's rewards for doing it, real life proves that!)
- Renaissance man or lady = Master multiple trade skills
- Socialite = Talk to ### different NPCs in multiple different Nodes

Man this is fun, I could go on for hours making up titles and requirements.
Oh we should even have polls in our node for titles to give to our node Mayor, the titles could be ones pre-picked by the devs to avoid non RP friendly titles. But perhaps once a month the Mayor has a poll automatically generated at the town hall that asks citizens to vote on what title the mayor has earned and it would range from (Infamous or Dastardly to Upstanding and Illustrious) thus if a Castle Monarch or Node Mayor leaves taxes at a very high rate for months and the citizens don't feel the taxes are just then they may vote him the title of "Wretched" or "Greedy" Or if the Mayor sets up a horrible caravan trade with another node to trade 1 diamond for 1 egg, either because he's that stupid or he was talked into doing it to make the female ruler of that node happy with him, then his citizens (just before voting him out for good) give him the title of "weak minded / feeble minded"

AMAZING POST!!!!

SSRogue

Beck Altarr wrote: »

@SSRogue

I think I have read enough of this thread to get some idea of what you maybe are trying to say.

You want there to be OTHER ways to earn Corruption and through those means perhaps an unknown underground faction may become available where you can gain access to titles, Cosmetics to adorn your character and possibly cosmetic spell/abilities that would separate you from the masses as someone who is/has been corrupted for some length of time.

These things would not exclusively require you to PK. Perhaps there would be missions like Assassinating a Mayor or Guild Leader of a Castle or high level cleric of a religion, which would be reasonable expectations as they would be legitimate issues to deal with and make those roles a little more interesting. Yes it's a PK, but if you accept the responsibility of the role you accept the danger, much like running a caravan.

You would still get corruption, but as a mission type, you would also earn corruption points you would not get just killing random players for corruption, so the motivation for random PKing is further decreased.

Of course this would have to be a secret in the game until a player earned enough corruption and survived long enough to unlock some hidden dungeon or some such to unlock the Corrupted "religion" and build it up from there.

You could then apply the points you earn from the other means of earning corruption to buy cosmetics and level up within the ranks. You wouldn't gain access to any new skills, but maybe your spells/abilities have a more corrupted look to them.

Additional to the idea: I don't think metropolis can form in the underground nodes. So maybe there could a chance for a node to form a black market type town where corrupted wouldn't be auto attacked by guards.

You mean you actually read everything and put together the concept vs just spewing out the same stuff over and over. Why... you are an actual person contributing to the forum in a productive way! Thank you sir and to answer yes, well kinda. I like your idea and I could add onto it but work has me overloaded this week so sadly I can't be as active in this at the moment.

SSRogue

Dr Jekyll wrote: »

I'm playing archeage unchanged on the fresh start server and after 2 months many guilds quit and most of my neighbors are gone. When there's no crime balance you have a world of murderous players. Typically these types of players will quickly gear up and go after easy targets, and mostly kill them for no other reason than to laugh about it. I find it humorous they cry about any realism that would occur for their actions in game. I hope all future games will bring a realist crime punishment system into action. How can you expect to do whatever you want without any consequences? My advice for you types, go play those dying games or ones just for mindless killing. Your play style is cancer for MMOs and only make up a very small percentage of the player base.

As an analyst, it comes down to crime balance and law structure for continuous healthy player growth.

I am sorry your game went to crap but many cames like DAoC and Ultima never suffered like that and as stated above so many times, there could be other ways to obtain corruption outside of pking and griefing and someone even mentioned how detailed this game will be at collecting data so they can determine how you get corruption and separate it from killing someone unwillingly or lower level and treat you differently. So you can be a good bad guy and never inconvenience a single person that would make you pk or griefer. You could keep severe punishments for those players who do pk and grief.

Grails

@SSRogue I went through most of this thread, and it seems to mostly be people telling you the options to be a bad character, and you not understanding or saying, "not like that, I mean bad character!" They don't want to encourage corruption, it's *only* a punishment. This means they will not give you a black cowl or an evil title for getting corrupted a bunch. Even if it's just the one little reward, everyone would be encouraged to do it at least the one time for the reward. So they won't be putting it in. You can do it spareingly if you think someone got some rare material and you want to take it from them or something, but in the long run it will be more and more punishing to you.

You can attack caravans and towns and freeholds to be a bad guy. There will be social/religious ladders to climb, like thieves guilds, and you can pick the bad guy versions of those to follow. Just because it's a religion doesn't mean they don't worship demons and sacrifice animals or something. You can choose to try to assassinate captains and vendors to assist a siege instead of fighting honorably at the walls, and could be the lynchpin to successfully winning the siege, in a "bad" way. You can constantly declare war on guilds and hinder them as much as you want. You can try to post up in a rare material zone and gank people that are likely to fight back to keep their farming spot. I don't know what else you're looking for.

Grails

SSRogue wrote: »

Beck Altarr wrote: »

@SSRogue

I think I have read enough of this thread to get some idea of what you maybe are trying to say.

You want there to be OTHER ways to earn Corruption and through those means perhaps an unknown underground faction may become available where you can gain access to titles, Cosmetics to adorn your character and possibly cosmetic spell/abilities that would separate you from the masses as someone who is/has been corrupted for some length of time.

These things would not exclusively require you to PK. Perhaps there would be missions like Assassinating a Mayor or Guild Leader of a Castle or high level cleric of a religion, which would be reasonable expectations as they would be legitimate issues to deal with and make those roles a little more interesting. Yes it's a PK, but if you accept the responsibility of the role you accept the danger, much like running a caravan.

You would still get corruption, but as a mission type, you would also earn corruption points you would not get just killing random players for corruption, so the motivation for random PKing is further decreased.

Of course this would have to be a secret in the game until a player earned enough corruption and survived long enough to unlock some hidden dungeon or some such to unlock the Corrupted "religion" and build it up from there.

You could then apply the points you earn from the other means of earning corruption to buy cosmetics and level up within the ranks. You wouldn't gain access to any new skills, but maybe your spells/abilities have a more corrupted look to them.

Additional to the idea: I don't think metropolis can form in the underground nodes. So maybe there could a chance for a node to form a black market type town where corrupted wouldn't be auto attacked by guards.

You mean you actually read everything and put together the concept vs just spewing out the same stuff over and over. Why... you are an actual person contributing to the forum in a productive way! Thank you sir and to answer yes, well kinda. I like your idea and I could add onto it but work has me overloaded this week so sadly I can't be as active in this at the moment.

They won't do this with Corruption, that would just be the bad themed faction and you would earn reputation with them in these "other ways that aren't PKing" that you've described. Why does it need to be Corruption?
They wouldnt put it in as a secret because they don't want people to get corrupted much, it's a punishment in the literal sense! It's like a literal timeout that can grow into basically a permaban until it wears off, enforced within the game! If someone got some arbitrary secret level of Corruption and was rewarded, then it would encourage everyone else to do it suddenly. They don't want to encourage it, it's for actual bad people, not people playing bad characters. I understand it could be more than that with these ideas, but they have other systems separated out for roleplaying bad.

Warth

Corruption is like jail, meant to be a deterrent and punishment. You don't expect anything useful to come from jail. Why would you expect them for corruption?

The secret to being a good guy is avoiding the death that usually comes with corruption. You won each time when you have gotten away Scot-free with murder (even more so if you managed to take a couple of valuable resources off the person you have murdered).

NelsonRebel

SSRogue wrote: »

Copperfield wrote: »

people seems to be forgetting that that bounty hunters are being implemented into the game.

Everyone keeps telling that corruption should not be rewarded and only be punished..

bounty hunters get rewarded... so should corrupted players in a mild form..

Example:

A corrupted player should get some reward by killing a bounty hunter imo..

if none goes corrupted, the bounty system will not work.

It is worth bringing up and even if you have an elected corruption where you become corrupted through a quest killing npcs and NEVER HARM AN INNCENT person then were is the harm in at the least discussing it? lol

Its not that theres a harm in discussing it, the problem is what it (feels) like you're alluding to.

Even though you mentioned that you dont want to just include player killing griefing. The whole point of corruption is to ensure there is a sufficient deterent to widespread and unabashed player killing and griefing. There are evil ways to play via the dark god religions, war on nodes, guild factions, caravans and killing another player flagged is fair game.

The bounty system and the reduced damage on corrupted players is just an obvious stacking deterent against creative players from skirting the corruption weakness to continue their grief streaks.

I mean if you check the wiki and the discord there are plenty of spots where steven says there will be options to play and influence the actual world with evil events via meaningful choices and open world events and quests.

So until we see the dark gods religon stuff, and more with the evil options it just feels like you're asking for a benifit to corruption when corruption is just the anti-grief measure AoC has put in with stacking levels of bounties to make sure the corrupted player isnt just using something that allows them to bypass the downsides of corruption and continue their mayhem on other players.

Thats all that "I think" many players are trying to say. That we know steven has already mentioned there will be avenues for bad guy play, we just dont know exactly what they'll be. The monster coins are an excellent example the other gentlemen brought up.

And there will be titles and achievments for war efforts and stuff but we wont see those until we hit around beta phase.

Dicdonya

I don’t understand some people in this thread. It seems like PK is being automatically associated with griefing, but to me those are very different things.

I also don’t get why some people seem to think Steven does not want PKing when if that were true he would just stop anyone from killing anyone outside of sanctioned pvp events.

Seems like he wants to stop griefing, while allowing moody players to kill someone sometimes if they feel upset or betrayed by them.

I FULLY support anti griefing mechanics, and the corruption system seems like a great way to dissuade griefing. However random open world pvp is not griefing to me, and the corruption system in place also dissuades doing that.

This game is supposedly all about risk vs reward, but there is only one reward, that I’m aware of, for PKing. That would be a percentage of a players gatherables. So assuming that stays the same, why would anyone interested in PKing ever fight anyone except unprepared gatherers? In other words the current reward PROMOTES griefing low risk kills, and causing someone to waste time gathering only to be targeted and lose some of those mats plus the other death penalties.

I think the corruption system should instead reward PKers for attacking high risk targets, whether that is some form of battle points, or anti honor points that form some sort of “evil” rank, or the reward is not getting gatherables, but instead consumables or a potential for inventory(not equipped gear) items to drop. Unless this game is different in some fundamental way, most high level raiders won’t be carrying many gatherables around at any given time, but might have plenty of consumables for dungeons/raids.

Since they have pvp ranks or ladders(right?), it would seem easy enough to tie corruption to pvp rank. So if you are just a douche griefer killing low level players and non pvpers all the time, you will gain no benefit, and get nothing but punishments. However if you choose targets at or above your “evil” rank, which would reflect the opposite of a pvp rank, you will instead grow your rank while possibly getting some sort of monetary reward.

Then pair your “evil” rank to some sort of underground or dark association in the game so that you have new quests or ties to for a little RP fun.

Also because I hate griefing, I think the corruption system should punish you severely for killing a low level player, like instant full corruption. I know it’s going to already do that, I just hope the increased corruption is massive in that situation. Force players who want to ambush players in the world to only target actual challenging players, which is IMO not griefing in any way. Also to stop corpse camping just make it so you gain no further reward for killing the same player more than once in a period of time and start losing rank and gaining loads of corruption if you kill the same target again within a reasonable period of time.

Also does anyone know if graveyard/respawn point camping has any protections? Right now with the corruption system it would seem highly likely that a coordinated PK group would kill a gatherer at a known high value farming spot, then have a few guys camping the respawn points nearby and just chain kill the person not only causing that player a ton of grief, but losing lots of his mats, while corruption would stay low as multiple players would kill the player instead of just one, spreading the corruption around instead of one guy getting hit with all the cumulative penalties.

Beck Altarr

Here is a Video I did in reaction/response to this thread on my Twitch channel. It's about 30 min long. I think I have some good ideas to flesh out the Corruption System while also making it more of a dis-incentive to kill random players just for kicks.

Corruption & Bad Guys

Atama

I think about corruption like staying up late.

If you are an adult you can stay up until all odd hours of the night and nobody is going to gripe about you going to bed (unless maybe you’re married but let’s set that aside). You can do what you want.

But there are consequences. If you have to get up early for work the next day you’re going to be tired. You can call in sick but people only have so many sick days to use and you might want to save them for when you are actually sick. Depending on where you work you might have other worries, like finding another person to cover you or dealing with work that piles up in your absence. It’s not something you should make a habit of or it will definitely affect your career and maybe other aspects of your life. Maybe you are just careful to stay up before a weekend day or holiday.

What you probably can’t do is just tell your employer that you need to take a nap in the morning or to just bear with you because you’re tired. There will be consequences and you need to deal with them, and a wise person will weigh them before making a decision.

Intrepid is like this with corruption. They aren’t going to be a nanny scolding you for it. You aren’t going to get in trouble with them. It’s not like they hope you will never ever kill a player non-consensually, because if that was the case then they’d just prevent you from even targeting a green player. They do hope that it isn’t done lightly, it’s not common, and if you engage in it then you have consequences.

NelsonRebel

Exactly

Darktide

This is in part where my question/suggestion of a Darktide server comes into play. Everyone jumps quickly to the corruption system as the "answer" but it's only an answer for the initial griefing. Once you get into competitive play and have grown out of the starter areas, an aggressive guild or player stands so much to lose and little to gain by engaging in active pvp content on a smaller scale like you mentioned... Say some guy builds his house right next to you and you really don't like him.. Or a guild holds territory and random people begin to invade your property to overthrow you... So you can kill them, or war their guild, but you are really at the game's corruption mechanic's mercy in most of it.

You're probably thinking, um, that's a good thing. Consider alts, and "good guy" griefers. They have no consequence. They don't lose anything, and there is no risk for them to start following you around harvesting in front of you, kill-stealing mobs from your players, etc. So what do you do? You retaliate and amass some corruption points, eventually this can demoralize your player-base for a more evil or chaotic oriented guild.

I'm sure there is someone out there that has the time to develop a proper argument, the points I brought up are probably not the best examples, but I'm at work and just wanted to put in a small bit of feedback on this, because I LOVE this game's potential. EVEN with corruption, but having a server without would really cater to those darktide style players that want a no-holds-barred server to live in, where those friendships are, like you said, invaluable. Where your reputation is really going to make a mark in the world and on different guilds/alliances. Where the threat of danger IS real.

Bear in mind, we have not seen this corruption system in action. It may not be that bad if it takes an hour or so to wipe off a few kills. It's not like I'm going to be killing an entire city in an afternoon, but if I do, I can spend a day or two clearing the slate, sure. If I'm essentially perma marked by these actions, it does actually discourages non-consensual pvp and opens the door to all sorts of carebear griefing.

NOW, I want you tall to know that I actually like the BH system idea in concept. I don't mind being killed by people for being bad... Couple that with stat losses, however and it's a bit harsh. I'm already being hunted down and now i'm weaker to boot.

But I'll digress, Part of me really wants to love the implementation of these systems, they have been long needed, but the other part of me just wants an old-school pvp server where the community is responsible for defining who's good and who's bad.

Darktide

@noaani not private, but option servers... Asheron's Call, Everquest, Neocron, Dark Age of Camelot, and i'm sure there are more that I'm leaving out. All AAA titles with optional servers... Wait, didn't WoW even have different server types at one point?

I missed the private part, and yes, no AAA title has allowed private servers to my knowledge.

Darktide

@Atama this is a very biased example.

I'm a green player in a guild. We want to harass another guild. I harvest their trees CONSTANTLY or lets say i'm strong enough to steal kills from them, repeatedly. They have to sacrifice corruption to stop me and I just go right back to it. Eventually they cannot stop me and I have put a serious hurt on them.

I don't know for sure if the game will function this way, but any system can and will be abused on both sides.

Darktide

Also, back to the OP's point. Some players really love that red flag, being known as a bad-azz that you should run from. Well in this game, you'll be a bad azz with a stick vs a carebear with a howitzer. I don't see the fear factor there.

I'm in no way saying that i disapprove of the design choice, I actually think it's pretty cool and unique to this game. In a way, I appreciate it. I think it does, however take away any enjoyment from the criminal characters and takes it beyond harsh to just immoral. Like taking every person ever accused of a crime and sticking a bomb implant in their head.

You could say it's just not.. realistic. Having a big red name and bounty hunters I can dig. That adds an element of danger. The weakening element, I think is taking it a bit far. There's no even play field now. Not only do you risk having the Mounties after you, en-mass to complete a quest, but you're handcuffed and chained to boot, with a orange outfit.

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