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What could be the severity of PvPing in dungeons and how can you essentially stop PvP guilds?
Aildust
Member
Hi, I'm a avid MMO player who looks at PVP with a disdain from a new players perspective as well as someone who works a 9-5 and can't no life MMO's like I could 10 years ago.
I'm excited about Ashes but I see the incentive to PVP in most cases but dungeons to me seem like the wrong place to have a "battleground", so my question mainly revolves around PVP guilds running dungeons and raids to get either their own characters geared or gear their new guildies.
Gear in the dungeons could have a chase piece but its in a lower leveled dungeon so you could potentially see higher leveled players in there
The example I have is a lower level but on-par well geared group attempts the dungeon ,they get to the boss and start the encounter damaging it to 75% total Hp left but another either more equipped or higher leveled groups comes in wipes the previous group and kills the boss. (lets say the level discrepancy is 5 levels)
Now the corruption system doesn't specify the amount of corruption or how the score works, it only generalizes the system so far.
You can say its not worth but a guild with high leveled players in the end game could put on moderate gear and pk clear a dungeon to allow their lowered leveled players a chance to get gear.
It seems like the system should stop most people BUT this type of behavior will be common somewhere in the game if a PVP guild wants to enact sieges every week with all their guild members they will be given an incentive to clear competition out of dungeons for their lowered level guild member to get their specified chase pieces.
Again this is just a thought but if I ,a mainly casual PVE player can think of it, then most PVP players will at least entertain the thought.
I'm excited about Ashes but I see the incentive to PVP in most cases but dungeons to me seem like the wrong place to have a "battleground", so my question mainly revolves around PVP guilds running dungeons and raids to get either their own characters geared or gear their new guildies.
Gear in the dungeons could have a chase piece but its in a lower leveled dungeon so you could potentially see higher leveled players in there
The example I have is a lower level but on-par well geared group attempts the dungeon ,they get to the boss and start the encounter damaging it to 75% total Hp left but another either more equipped or higher leveled groups comes in wipes the previous group and kills the boss. (lets say the level discrepancy is 5 levels)
Now the corruption system doesn't specify the amount of corruption or how the score works, it only generalizes the system so far.
You can say its not worth but a guild with high leveled players in the end game could put on moderate gear and pk clear a dungeon to allow their lowered leveled players a chance to get gear.
It seems like the system should stop most people BUT this type of behavior will be common somewhere in the game if a PVP guild wants to enact sieges every week with all their guild members they will be given an incentive to clear competition out of dungeons for their lowered level guild member to get their specified chase pieces.
Again this is just a thought but if I ,a mainly casual PVE player can think of it, then most PVP players will at least entertain the thought.
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This isnt a game where solely focusing on one aspect of the game is going to be easy, take for instance you labelling a guild PvP, well every guild needs to pvp, pve etc, its a pvx game and you need to participate in all facets of the game to get true success.
Which is why I'm skeptical of incentivizing PVP heavily without really giving the community any knowledge of the system so far.
Well there is your incentive right there, to take bosses and dungeons.
Yes Risk vs Reward but there isn’t a reward that you could justify that much grief for low level dungeons.
An example for when it’s worth it, is like in classic WoW when either alliance or horde players are crafting Legendaries where the other faction shows up to essentially halt forging process.
I just don’t see the benefit but I see the potential.
When you PvE you have to be prepared for PvP at all times, all systems are interconnected, you really dont have a choice because of the way the game is designed, as a pvx game. You need to participate in all aspects of the game, there will be no PvE or PvP players, just players. You want that loot be prepared to fight for it.
(Just a side note when I’m drawing clear cut distinctions between a PvP guild and a “normal” guild it’s about the actions the guild takes) [a mercenary guild is essentially a PVP guild] so drawing these types of black and white conclusions are founded by Stevens Sharif own rhetoric
If one of the big guilds of the server decide dungeon X that has dragon mob Y in it is worth farming all the time for certain potion mats or something, even when they vastly out level the mobs, and I go in with my party of guildmates to try to get some levels/rewards. What stops the high level people from just taking everything? I have no pack of people to call on to help. They don't have to kill me to ruin the experience, they can just follow us and kill everything we tag. If they can kill a mob easily, while we meet the level requirements and take 30 seconds to kill a mob, the tagging doesn't help us, they'll do a large % of the damage quickly and take the drop.
Then, what's to stop them from taking every boss kill? Just easily get to and sit in the boss area. We worked our butts off to get to the boss, we pull, they can then kick our assess while the boss also beats us up, then they take the kill while we rez or whatever, or just out dps us and take the boss drop too. There's no risk vs reward for them or us, we have no recourse to stop them they out gear and out level us, they have nothing to lose until corruption really kicks in. They can do it several times, or switch out guildies while the others farm mobs to reduce corruption, and repeat.
Also, what's the respawn times for bosses going to be like? Will the boss even be there when we finally make it? If it's a short timer and the dungeon is huge, like we've seen, people will just sit in the boss room and kill it over and over, but if it's long respawn, we'll get there and it will be dead already, and either we wait and many groups will probably pile up waiting and fight forever to get it, or we just don't get to kill it ever.
I'm sure they've discussed a lot of this but I just joined the forum to ask about this stuff, and this was the first thread that came up with an open world dungeon search
On the same note, just taking a system (corruption), that worked greatly in Lineage 2, without considering the systems around it will not work. I trust Intrepid enough to believe they understand that.
Lineage 2, who inspired the corruption system dealt with this pretty efficiently. They drastically decreased the Loot and Experience players get from Content that is below/above them. You'd only get 100% of the loot if the content was within +4/-4 (?) Levels of your Character. You'd also get diminishing returns on exp depending on the Level difference. (Bosses were handled differently)
This pretty much invalidated the problem of high levels farming low level areas or boosting some of their guild mates.
Judging based on the L2 inspiration once more, then the Respawn timer for raid size bosses should fall between 1 and 12 hours. Which extend up 7+ days for grand bosses. It's probably not gonna be much different here. Group sized "mini"-bosses should fall into the 30min - 4 hour range. This pretty much invalidates the camping of these raid sized bosses.
Why do you think you have the right to get the loot drop over them? Killing you would indeed by a risk v. reward system for them, as corruption is nothing to take lightly. Outperforming you within the boss fight itself? Not so much, but then again, I don't see any reason why you'd feel entitled to get the loot from this boss. It's not yours, get that out of your head, its a public boss, ready to be taken by anybody who tries. Either size up to take it for yourself or buy the materials dropping from the boss off the market.
It clearly is a highly contested spawn you are talking about, otherwise the large guilds wouldn't bother farming it. I can't quite put my finger on something... The though of feeling entitled to the highly contested bosses and spawns, while not putting in the effort to get them, feels very weird to me. I'm not quite sure where this sense of entitlement comes from, I'd guess WoW as that game handed everything on a silver platter to its player base. What it comes down to: People that will put more effort into the game will be rewarded for it.
A stronger guild (pvp or not) out-performing you on a boss to secure the loot isn't connected to the PvP system either. That's a strawman at best.
Goes both ways If I didn't have to raid so I can be competitive pvp I wouldn't. It is indeed a PvX game by design. You don't want to PvP but are forced into it. I don't want to PvE but will be forced into it. Hopefully its a 50/50 split but I think you will be the lucky one and that the game will favor PvE probably 70/30
I'm hoping that the open-world PvP scene is alive and thriving in this game.
I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, I'm asking how the systems work. It doesn't have to be crazy lucrative for people to say, "har har, let's go stop people from getting boss kills." In fact there is no reward in most games for killing lowbies over and over, but people love doing it. Intrepid don't want people to ruin other players experience with the game and kill lowbies over and over. I'm saying they don't have to kill you to ruin it. You can work your way through a difficult-for-your-level dungeon and then players you have no chance of beating can kill the boss just so you can't. I want to be able to enjoy the game and test my group against bosses, and be rewarded for it. It's not entitled, we would earn stuff by defeating the boss. They are taking away your boss fight and your possible loot. Jerks might not do it super often, because like you said they won't get much, but it would only have to happen to someone a couple times before a player says, fuck this game, I don't ever get anything cool.
I posted that comment you quoted as its own post cause this thread was in the wrong place. Other people helped me see the dungeon is more like a higher level/group zone with better drops, I was more thinking about it as a path to a boss, where the monsters in the way don't mean much. However I still don't really know how the game stops jerks from ruining people's experience in this way, getting creative with the tagging and/or corruption system.
you will not lose anything in this event. aside from maybe your grind spot and your patience.
@Aildust I hear you in regards to top level pvp guilds. AOC is taking pieces from games that had open world pvp. The following are truths about AOC:
Your scenario(s) mentioned are by design. There is also no alternative if the above mentioned stays true. Now as a person who has played, for years, every pvp game AOC is borrowing from i can tell you that there is always a balance. I am a pvp player and the majority of the KS backers talked about this subject to death (and thats a good thing). This game will have loads of pvp but there will be white knights and opposing factions to assist players like your self. This is all in addition to the built in systems too.
I'm not trying to discourage you to not play, but in fact come to terms with it and try to solve the issue with others in your same place. This game is going to be truly different then others and there for will have new scenarios like this to solve.
I don't think BiS gear should be gated behind PvE just so one can PvP
unfortunately there are only two options. Learn to deal with it or get into real estate and make our own MMO
They will not lose equipped gear but they will lose the same amount of materials as well incur the same death penalties as they would if they died to PvE .
They will lose 50% less of that should they fight back.
It is not your boss fight it is open world boss fight and you have to earn the right to take it by what ever means the game allows. This is a fundamental concept in AoC it is how games were prior to WoW
Ai is either designed for you to beat it or it to beat you.
Think of the other players as AI gate keepers or a random world event that you must eliminate to earn your boss loot.
The perception to handle the defeat differently based on if AI beat you or a player did is all in your head.
It is by game design for this to interaction to happen.
I remember playing FF 11 back on release in the states. I got to end game but one day while offline my linkshell/guild some how stole a world boss from a Japanese Raid guild. It killed our guild cause of the grieving from a lot of JP guilds we try to do any thing.
What I getting at is world politics between guilds will matter. PvP guild ganks to much in an area, come up with a trap where you trick them into corruption.
Afraid of you boss getting stolen, form an alliance where one guild kills the bosd and the other protects from players.
We're going to need to talk to each other, and guild leaders we need to work with other guilds.
The game lightly acknowledges they shouldn't be there by reducing their drops off the boss or whatever, but if they find it fun, it is still at the expense of the powerless.
I mean, you could just round up a posse and gank them? There's plenty of people who are coming into Ashes looking to roll griefers, and plenty of community minded folks and guilds out there that won't want that kind of thing happening in the nodes they're based out of.
Also worth remembering is that corruption gain is disproportionately higher for killing low level players. If you're getting ganked by a top level griefer, it won't be long before the bounty hunters show up.
Unless you fight back. As I understand it, if you fight back, then you are a willing combatant and there is no corruption.
Edit: Wrong quote blocks; low contrast text on a 4k monitor is hard to read.
50k accounts per server but only 10k logged in 130 nodes assume 1 dungeon per node that's roughly 75 players per dungeon but not everyone will be in a dungeon. If you are getting out numbered and out geared there is a good chance there will be a place where your group can out number and out gear. I don't know if the information about bosses is out there if every dungeon has a 40 man boss and 8 man mini bosses or what.
There not only will be entire guilds of bounty hunters but Nodes of them. If mutiple people are killing players substantially lower than them . They will create a point of interest. If they continue to do it over a long period of time they will not be able to clear their corruption fast enough. If they angered you enough you can even help bait them to make sure they are Corrupted when the bounty hunters do come.
You can not kill your guild mates and if you die to NPC your team mates can't pick up your gear afaik.
I suppose the work around is have someone not in the guild kill the corrupted players.
Something the devs might want to consider as well is ad a cool down to resurrections so a corrupted player cant be killed res'd killed res'd. This would force them to stay corrupted longer or have to walk back to the party from the random spawn point.
The corrupted player will also have to deal with this. There is no work around for it.
This might just be the solution. PvP players don't want to PvE to farm stuff. Meanwhile PvE players don't want to PvP. Isn't there a deal that can be made here ? Have the PvE players work for the PvP players as "farmers". The PvP players will secure the dungeon/boss and provide protection from rival guilds as needed meanwhile the PvE will go ham on the dungeon/Boss farming as much as they can in the process.
Enjoying worry free PvE might just mean joining a guild as a raid farming squad with the corresponding artisan professions. You get to raid all you want and you also get housing or a freehold where you can process stuff for the guild. Whenever trouble arise or you need to move stuff around nodes in caravans, that is were you call in the PvP army. How much safety you get to have or how much access to contested PvE content you get to have depends a lot on the power of your PvP army. Which means that you need to do a good job gearing them up. On the flip side the PvP army needs to do a good of protecting the farmers otherwise no farming will actually get done. Worst the resources might go to their enemy as loot. When everything is going fine on your side the PvP army go raid the farmers of a rival guild to disrupt the preparations of the up coming node siege of their nemesis guild. Possibly getting some loot in the process. Unless their PvP army prevail.
There would be room for people who like both as well. They would be the one tagging along the PvE raid or open field farming as escort and get a PvP rush when intruders appear. When some critical PvP event is going on they're the one coming in to reinforce the PvP army in the castle siege or something.
The caravan system is also designed to bring pvp'rs and pve'rs together
I think the idea is to bring both PvP'r and PvE'r together through the Node. Both being citizens of the same Node. A guild who is blocking content from their own citizens is only hurting the Node. They should be doing this on a rival node. In turn its everyones best interest in that rival node to raise against them from doing it to their citizens.