What could be the severity of PvPing in dungeons and how can you essentially stop PvP guilds?

Hi, I'm a avid MMO player who looks at PVP with a disdain from a new players perspective as well as someone who works a 9-5 and can't no life MMO's like I could 10 years ago.
I'm excited about Ashes but I see the incentive to PVP in most cases but dungeons to me seem like the wrong place to have a "battleground", so my question mainly revolves around PVP guilds running dungeons and raids to get either their own characters geared or gear their new guildies.

Gear in the dungeons could have a chase piece but its in a lower leveled dungeon so you could potentially see higher leveled players in there
The example I have is a lower level but on-par well geared group attempts the dungeon ,they get to the boss and start the encounter damaging it to 75% total Hp left but another either more equipped or higher leveled groups comes in wipes the previous group and kills the boss. (lets say the level discrepancy is 5 levels)
Now the corruption system doesn't specify the amount of corruption or how the score works, it only generalizes the system so far.
You can say its not worth but a guild with high leveled players in the end game could put on moderate gear and pk clear a dungeon to allow their lowered leveled players a chance to get gear.
It seems like the system should stop most people BUT this type of behavior will be common somewhere in the game if a PVP guild wants to enact sieges every week with all their guild members they will be given an incentive to clear competition out of dungeons for their lowered level guild member to get their specified chase pieces.

Again this is just a thought but if I ,a mainly casual PVE player can think of it, then most PVP players will at least entertain the thought.

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Creepy_Janitor

While I know I would get frustrated when ganged while level in a dungeon or killing a big boss, I am fine with AoC system because its bring back the social aspect of the genre.

I remember playing FF 11 back on release in the states. I got to end game but one day while offline my linkshell/guild some how stole a world boss from a Japanese Raid guild. It killed our guild cause of the grieving from a lot of JP guilds we try to do any thing.

What I getting at is world politics between guilds will matter. PvP guild ganks to much in an area, come up with a trap where you trick them into corruption.

Afraid of you boss getting stolen, form an alliance where one guild kills the bosd and the other protects from players.

We're going to need to talk to each other, and guild leaders we need to work with other guilds.

Jexz

@Aildust In your scenario . Your group wont be the only ones that has been angered . There is nothing stopping you from rounding up a big raid party or two and Zerging them. Plan it right and a few of them might even be corrupted when you attack.

Grails

Jexz wrote: »

Grails wrote: »

I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything...They are taking away your boss fight...

It is not your boss fight it is open world boss fight and you have to earn the right to take it by what ever means the game allows. This is a fundamental concept in AoC it is how games were prior to WoW

Ai is either designed for you to beat it or it to beat you.
Think of the other players as AI gate keepers or a random world event that you must eliminate to earn your boss loot.
The perception to handle the defeat differently based on if AI beat you or a player did is all in your head.
It is by game design for this to interaction to happen.

@Jexz I understand how it works in a theoretical sense. My group fights their group and then kills the boss over their corpses, or we work out a deal for who waits, or we dps race and the most wins. I'm talking about griefers that I cannot beat because they have twice as many people or are twice my level, camping the boss the same way people like to corpse camp. Say I'm midway to max level in a midway dungeon. Can a max level player one shot me? Can they kill the boss in like 10 seconds, robbing the group because the tagging system lets you out dps to steal? I have no recourse but take it, same as if they felt like killing me over and over, except they lose nothing. My option is hope someone comes and saves me or wait them out, same options if they were allowed to kill me.
The game lightly acknowledges they shouldn't be there by reducing their drops off the boss or whatever, but if they find it fun, it is still at the expense of the powerless.

Niraada

Grails wrote: »

@Jexz I understand how it works in a theoretical sense. My group fights their group and then kills the boss over their corpses, or we work out a deal for who waits, or we dps race and the most wins. I'm talking about griefers that I cannot beat because they have twice as many people or are twice my level, camping the boss the same way people like to corpse camp. Say I'm midway to max level in a midway dungeon. Can a max level player one shot me? Can they kill the boss in like 10 seconds, robbing the group because the tagging system lets you out dps to steal? I have no recourse but take it, same as if they felt like killing me over and over, except they lose nothing. My option is hope someone comes and saves me or wait them out, same options if they were allowed to kill me.
The game lightly acknowledges they shouldn't be there by reducing their drops off the boss or whatever, but if they find it fun, it is still at the expense of the powerless.

I mean, you could just round up a posse and gank them? There's plenty of people who are coming into Ashes looking to roll griefers, and plenty of community minded folks and guilds out there that won't want that kind of thing happening in the nodes they're based out of.

Also worth remembering is that corruption gain is disproportionately higher for killing low level players. If you're getting ganked by a top level griefer, it won't be long before the bounty hunters show up.

Fildydarie

Niraada wrote: »

Also worth remembering is that corruption gain is disproportionately higher for killing low level players. If you're getting ganked by a top level griefer, it won't be long before the bounty hunters show up.

Unless you fight back. As I understand it, if you fight back, then you are a willing combatant and there is no corruption.

Edit: Wrong quote blocks; low contrast text on a 4k monitor is hard to read.

Niraada

@Fildydarie He specifically mentioned being one-shotted by high level players.

Jexz

This is something everyone will have to deal with through out the entirety of the game. There will be top tier guilds who camp and deny others from world boss loot and well anything of high value. There will be coalitions of guilds to try and stop them. The entire game is based around power struggles.

50k accounts per server but only 10k logged in 130 nodes assume 1 dungeon per node that's roughly 75 players per dungeon but not everyone will be in a dungeon. If you are getting out numbered and out geared there is a good chance there will be a place where your group can out number and out gear. I don't know if the information about bosses is out there if every dungeon has a 40 man boss and 8 man mini bosses or what.

There not only will be entire guilds of bounty hunters but Nodes of them. If mutiple people are killing players substantially lower than them . They will create a point of interest. If they continue to do it over a long period of time they will not be able to clear their corruption fast enough. If they angered you enough you can even help bait them to make sure they are Corrupted when the bounty hunters do come.

You can not kill your guild mates and if you die to NPC your team mates can't pick up your gear afaik.
I suppose the work around is have someone not in the guild kill the corrupted players.
Something the devs might want to consider as well is ad a cool down to resurrections so a corrupted player cant be killed res'd killed res'd. This would force them to stay corrupted longer or have to walk back to the party from the random spawn point.

StevenSharif wrote: »

Another point, experience debt can significantly reduce your drop rate for monsters. The more debt you own the greater the drop in % for loot tables. These modifiers are applied in a divisible manner for parties.

The corrupted player will also have to deal with this. There is no work around for it.

Zhab

In my opinion a game should not be designed in such a way where max level 50 characters find themselves in dire need to CONTROL a low level 15 training dungeon area that new players are meant to use to progress their character. Not placing vital end game farming materials in the middle of newbie training areas might be a good start in helping to keep max level players away from newbies trying to level up. An other way would be to provide incentive to hire the new players to do the farming for them (node mayor make quest or something). Which would give them time to farm the hard stuff or otherwise focus on other things.

This might just be the solution. PvP players don't want to PvE to farm stuff. Meanwhile PvE players don't want to PvP. Isn't there a deal that can be made here ? Have the PvE players work for the PvP players as "farmers". The PvP players will secure the dungeon/boss and provide protection from rival guilds as needed meanwhile the PvE will go ham on the dungeon/Boss farming as much as they can in the process.

Enjoying worry free PvE might just mean joining a guild as a raid farming squad with the corresponding artisan professions. You get to raid all you want and you also get housing or a freehold where you can process stuff for the guild. Whenever trouble arise or you need to move stuff around nodes in caravans, that is were you call in the PvP army. How much safety you get to have or how much access to contested PvE content you get to have depends a lot on the power of your PvP army. Which means that you need to do a good job gearing them up. On the flip side the PvP army needs to do a good of protecting the farmers otherwise no farming will actually get done. Worst the resources might go to their enemy as loot. When everything is going fine on your side the PvP army go raid the farmers of a rival guild to disrupt the preparations of the up coming node siege of their nemesis guild. Possibly getting some loot in the process. Unless their PvP army prevail.

There would be room for people who like both as well. They would be the one tagging along the PvE raid or open field farming as escort and get a PvP rush when intruders appear. When some critical PvP event is going on they're the one coming in to reinforce the PvP army in the castle siege or something.

Grails

@Niraada they aren't killing us and getting Corruption, they are getting around the system by just out dpsing us, and we can't fight them off because if we attack, they one shot us within the pvp system. You suggest I round up a posse. I recognised I had the option to be saved by someone else. I also have that option if they were ganking me over and over in a different game that doesn't have a corruption system. Intrepid punishes them for ganking, even though I could 'just' round up a posse to stop them. However my experience between these 2 scenarios is the same. I'm powerless to do anything against them except escape them and try to play the game somewhere else, or be saved.

Jexz

@Zhab The top guilds will be doing this
The caravan system is also designed to bring pvp'rs and pve'rs together

I think the idea is to bring both PvP'r and PvE'r together through the Node. Both being citizens of the same Node. A guild who is blocking content from their own citizens is only hurting the Node. They should be doing this on a rival node. In turn its everyones best interest in that rival node to raise against them from doing it to their citizens.

virilikus

This PvX system is built around the players mostly having the power to govern themselves. If a guild decides to horde a single dungeon and prevent others from getting that loot, they are free to do so. The players that want the loot can grind items elsewhere to trade for what they want from that dungeon, or to get carried through the dungeon by paying them, or a limited amount of time in the dungeon left undisturbed. Not everyone will be able to do anything they want to at any time because players are given the right to deny certain aspects of the game from other players.

A vast majority of loot and items in the game is tradeable. The guild that "owns" that dungeon might be amassing the loot to resell to players for profit.

Players that don't like this might commission another guild or mercenary group to help them clear the dungeon of the guild.

You WILL experience situations where another player has altered your options for playing the game and you WILL have to find your OWN ways of getting around this or solving the problem presented to you.

Niraada

@Grails So choose.

You could choose to get help.
You could choose to let yourself be abused and not do anything about it. That's a choice too.
You could choose to level with guild groups, where you'll be relatively safer. Also an option.

There's plenty of ways you can handle it. Going into a PvX game expecting to not get killed by others... I don't think it's a very realistic outlook. If that's a serious concern of yours, it's worth considering a title less based around player conflict. I don't mean this as a barb or an insult, but if you genuinely dislike these types of interactions, this game may not be for you.

Protect yourself and adapt, or don't. Choose.

unknown

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j017

I'm sure somebody mentioned it but if we were able not be dicks about it in Crystal Caverns a million years ago, I'm sure it can be done now. Although you couldn't just kill somebody flat out back in EQ, you could try to steal their kills by tagging first and all that.

Dementid

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Aildust wrote: »

That’s taking away the choice whether or not to PvP, it’s now a requirement which means less people will dungeon delve if they are forced to pvp throughout the entire dungeon just to die or exhaust all their utility making their way to the boss room.
Yes Risk vs Reward but there isn’t a reward that you could justify that much grief for low level dungeons.
An example for when it’s worth it, is like in classic WoW when either alliance or horde players are crafting Legendaries where the other faction shows up to essentially halt forging process.
I just don’t see the benefit but I see the potential.

Its a gigantic mistake. Everyone thinks they will be part of the zerg, as soon as they are not the whining will start on the forums. If not looked into people simply quit.

Thinning out the weaker population? i like it. But then again im a PvP enthusiast

All kidding aside- like i mentioned above- this will be a good opportunity for PvE focused players to experience more PvP. NOTHING in gaming will get your adrenalin going like a good/ meaningful PvP fight.

Its one thing to be good at the class you play, PvP is all about understanding the class your fighting, understanding what theyre trying to do and how/when to counter them. Its really not that hard once you know what to do

Grails

@Niraada you still haven't addressed my question. Why is it not ok to kill people, and the game actively punishes you. But they can turn around and deny your play just as hard without killing you. That isn't any different from the weaker players perspective. They don't get to play the game, they have to run away or get help. Only difference is running as a ghost in game vs being alive in game.

I completely understand the options. What I don't understand is why they protect you from dying vs not protecting you from being as good as dead, unable to do anything. Why is it they draw the line there? They deem getting killed a lot as bad because people will not like the game enough to quit or it isn't fun to die a bunch? It also isn't fun to not be able to get xp and loot if someone decides they don't want you to.
It would at least make sense to give the tagger the loot, so the griefer can't just wait till they see what you're fighting, and one shot it so you get like 5% of the xp and no loot. Do that like 5 times and it's like you killed me, I may as well have been dead that whole time, because I have gotten nothing for an equivalent playtime.
The system works when you're equal levels and within reasonable gear levels. But people can still ruin lower level players game time without ganking, that's all I'm saying. And if they think getting ganked is frustrating enough to curb it with systems built in, then they should do something about these scenarios I'm laying out, because they are equally frustrating, and the player has the exact same options as if they were being killed.

Jexz

@Grails A Copy paste from a reddit post...

If you choose not to defend you open them up to be attacked by someone who may fight for you. If they are in a large group they won the contest for the space. You can grief them by throwing yourself at them raising their corruption at the cost of your xp and time. They can in turn kill you lowering their loot drops and player stats as well as risking their gear if someone stronger comes by to contest the spot.

Both sides pvp'r and pve'r can view the other as the bad griefer. The current system favors the non combatant as you can attack the corrupted player with out being a combatant. Constantly increasing his chances to lose his gear and lowering his stats till you eventually may win or a bounty hunter comes.

Grails

@Jexz people still aren't understanding what I'm saying. There is no corruption or death involved. I am lower level, I cannot scratch them, so I cannot attack them to drive them away, if I use anything on them, they just kill me scot free because now I'm flagged. They stand over my shoulder and kill anything I look at, boss/mob whatever. I get the percent of damage I did to a mob in xp, which is like >5 percent. They get the loot because they did 95% of the damage. I am effectively locked out from doing anything I want to, unless I run for help. How is that different than getting killed, at least then I spawn somewhere else and they'd have to find me again.

BaSkA_9x2

I'm in a similar situation: I don't have too much free time, but I still wanna play MMOs like I used to.

However, what I've come to terms with is that if I don't have enough time to invest in a game, AoC being one of them, I won't be able to compete with those who do.

So I believe you will not find the answer you're looking for, instead you'll have to deal with it. If you're a casual player, you simply won't be safe in open world dungeons, only instanced ones.

Although I'd love to say I should be able to accomplish most of what the game has to offer, it's unfair to those people that are able to no life the game not be able to contest me.

This will be a hardcore game, the difference is that when we last played hardcore MMOs, we probably didn't have a job, family, obligations - now we do.

Niraada

@Grails Why do you think a lower level player can't harm a higher level one? I believe Steven addressed this question in the AMA. Level suppression isn't something they're planning to implement.

A bunch of low level characters should be able to whittle down a higher level one, or one insane dude should be able to at least make him miserable.

A number of options have been discussed and offered, Grails. Meaningful choices does not mean that you'll always have an ideal choice, or even one you'll like. You can always walk away if it's not worth your trouble.

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