ShroudedFox wrote: » I understand the sentiment that your trying to get across (or at least I think I do), all im saying is you need to draw a line at a certain point, for example lets say you have a fighter/mage I think that's a spellsword and you want to increase your intellect so you fit the role of mage more (I don't know if spellsword would even benefit from higher intellect but lets say their abilities scale with it for the sake of the discussion) , I just don't see why going to a craftsman and getting them to make you intellect specific gear doesn't fufill that need? I just don't think its a massive deal about needing to select those stats through character level up because, like lets say I get to top level and decide I chose the wrong stats all the way through the level up phrase, does that mean: a) I have to make a new character b) I have to go respec my character (this destroys the point of even having stat allocation)
ShroudedFox wrote: » In the end if the stats come from gear or picking stats its the same your gonna have to pick a trade off have int or having str. Having the stat adjustment happen through gear just makes more sense to me personally as its more hassle free and leads to being able to experiment more with what I want to be, roleplaying is a seperate thing to me and has more to do with social interaction then stat points As for racial stats now that I think about it your right on the front that have allocation doesn't an affect on racial identity, as the upper limit of an elves Dex would always be higher then that of an orc.
ShroudedFox wrote: » also as for weapon skills and class skills, I might just ask how you plan to use an ability like arrow volley with an axe or shield bash with an axe. If the class skill doesn't correlate to your weapon choice just don't level up that specific skill put the points into something else.
ShroudedFox wrote: » and of course a plate wearing tank is going to be better at his role then a cloth wearing one, he need to get close to do damage ie he needs to take more damage.
Tyrantor wrote: » Yes the base stats will be impacted by the race (very typical in games that orcs have higher str than elves). However allowing players to adjust their points past this initial base line I'm not certain how it defeats anything? Can you actually elaborate on that?
Tyrantor wrote: » [22] Certain abilities require certain items to be equipped.[23]" If they no longer have the items required for their class certain abilities may not work? So now because he has to wear plate instead of building the character a different way and just being less efficient with his abilities, the cleric now no longer has access to certain abilities. - This sounds like being pigeon holed no?
Grievousness wrote: » It is funny that you say of course when you are about 60% wrong about it. Tanks will probably be using light armor on caster bosses and heavy armor on physical bosses or some of the other armor type depending on how much damage of which type the boss will be doing. This will be true since the wiki clearly states that light armor will have magic damage mitigation and heavy armor will have physical damage mitigation. This isn't exactly a new concept archeage had the same armour system. (source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Armor) I personally think it's a poor design choice but whatever.
ShroudedFox wrote: » Its old but seeing as they haven't updated us since id say its still accuratehttps://youtu.be/G4-Sb3dN2hQ?t=35m58s
Tyrantor wrote: » ServNiQ wrote: » 1) To the large amount of what you're saying, it's a design decision, the decision being that they want a large amount of your playstyle and how you experience the gameplay to be based on your class. In general, I don't think having stat allocation is bad, not at all. Just not for a game like AoC, where they want to have those stereotypes. They want things to make sense. In general, it doesn't make sense for a mage to outduel a rogue that has snuck up on him, and it doesn't make sense for a rogue to have more health than a tank. 2) When you take away the ability to allocate stat points, you suddenly introduce this new idea of 'should I take away from my overall effectiveness so that I don't lose in the rock-paper-scissors battle, or do I just suck it up?' So yes, while you may think it would be more freeing and fun to make incredible wacky and stereotype breaking characters, where everyone is able to, but I think it's infinitely more fun to instead bend these stereotypes and create interesting dynamics as like before. As they said, they want to keep the holy trinity of Tank-DPS-Heal/Support, with augmentations and specializations blurring the lines between these roles, not destroying these lines. 3) If you are looking for a game where you can create mind bending characters then this is not the game for you. There will be many ways to personalize your character the way you want it, but just not in the way you describe. Not trying to offend anyone FYI, but this is going to be a game where you will have the stereotypical mage types and ranger types and whatnot, not a game where 'you are limited only by your imagination'. I hope this helps clarify. I'm going to comment on these three points you raised. 1) How are you assuming that giving players the freedom to grant stat allocation is going to then let the mage best the rogue who snuck up on him or allow a rogue to have more health than a tank? - Again the "tank" would get their base race/class stats and would likely be applying their attributes accordingly if their goal was to be a "tank". The rogue on the other hand would have less attribute points and should never exceed the tanks health if both characters downed the same HP items etc. In theory what it would allow is a rogue to build additional health into his class than is the "standard" which would be the case should specific weapons/armor etc be customary for classes - which again if we're unable to adjust our character attributes outside of equipment I'm not sure why they wouldn't be. 2) While it's true a character may be able to attribute their stats and weapons/armor in a way to change the rock-paper-scissor dynamic it would likely leave them open to a new counter to their build. For example lets just say a high INT warrior is now able to defeat the high INT mage BUT that warrior's HPs would suffer from this build strategy and now instead of the Warrior>Rogue it becomes Warrior<Rogue (for that sepcific build) the rock paper scissor process would still play out but it wouldn't be as defined as games like WoW make it to be. 3) Can you quote something that proves your accuracy on the fact the game isn't going to allow attribute allocation? While it has not been stated one way or another yet that I'm aware of I find it troubling you seem so confident in the matter. With all of the creative customization allowed in the game with ability skill depth, weapon augmentation/powers and the multi class system it seems like the game would lean heavily toward allowing characters to designate their own attribute points. p.s. Lastly I just want to leave you with the understanding that MOST people are not going to create as you say "Wacky" builds. Most people would choose to advance their attributes towards their ideal build(s). Though some may choose health is more important to them than a bit more damage, mana, or other attribute. To that end all it would change is that some characters have slightly varying attribute lines. Removing the ability to adjust our own attribute's really is just a developers way of saying "the masses are too stupid not to screw this up". Look at a game like ESO that does allow attribute allocation but they've dumbed it down so far as you only have 3 options. In all probability the people that go off the rails with the stat allocation would likely get destroyed in 1v1 scenarios that you seem so concerned with, I'm just hoping they give us the choice to be winners or losers based on attribute allocation as well.
ServNiQ wrote: » 1) To the large amount of what you're saying, it's a design decision, the decision being that they want a large amount of your playstyle and how you experience the gameplay to be based on your class. In general, I don't think having stat allocation is bad, not at all. Just not for a game like AoC, where they want to have those stereotypes. They want things to make sense. In general, it doesn't make sense for a mage to outduel a rogue that has snuck up on him, and it doesn't make sense for a rogue to have more health than a tank. 2) When you take away the ability to allocate stat points, you suddenly introduce this new idea of 'should I take away from my overall effectiveness so that I don't lose in the rock-paper-scissors battle, or do I just suck it up?' So yes, while you may think it would be more freeing and fun to make incredible wacky and stereotype breaking characters, where everyone is able to, but I think it's infinitely more fun to instead bend these stereotypes and create interesting dynamics as like before. As they said, they want to keep the holy trinity of Tank-DPS-Heal/Support, with augmentations and specializations blurring the lines between these roles, not destroying these lines. 3) If you are looking for a game where you can create mind bending characters then this is not the game for you. There will be many ways to personalize your character the way you want it, but just not in the way you describe. Not trying to offend anyone FYI, but this is going to be a game where you will have the stereotypical mage types and ranger types and whatnot, not a game where 'you are limited only by your imagination'. I hope this helps clarify.
Tyrantor wrote: » This video definitely does not do anything but confirm there are base stats for each race.
ShroudedFox wrote: » see alsohttps://youtu.be/A1SjmI_SOgo?t=1h4m56s
Tyrantor wrote: » Frankly attribute points have always been such a pivotal part of RPG games that not being able to control how we build our characters from a base level (outside of gear/items) it just seems odd to me.
ShroudedFox wrote: » Tyrantor wrote: » Frankly attribute points have always been such a pivotal part of RPG games that not being able to control how we build our characters from a base level (outside of gear/items) it just seems odd to me. I completely get where your coming from in this and if your looking at Solo RPGs and games like D&D it makes sense to be able to customise every single facet of your character, but if you make it too complex in a game where 500 people are participating in a fight I just feel like its just abit too chaotic for you to assess what's a danger to you and what's not... To put it in a metaphor if your reenacting the second world war you don't expect to see a Roman centurion running at you...
Tyrantor wrote: » I'm speaking from an MMO RPG perspective not Solo RPG. Maybe it's just us older MMO players that remember days when developers didn't just build the characters for us.
ShroudedFox wrote: » quoted from wiki "Heavy armor (passive) Rank:1 Increases armor given by heavy armor Rank:2 Further increases armor given. Rank:3 Each piece of armor added gives health percentage bonus to the tank." So yes in some cases tanks may wear cloth armour, but when specing cloth it gives mana rather then health I would suspect that specing into plate is generally a better choice for tanking damage.
Grievousness wrote: » Yea, but if you don't have a crazy amount of additional health (like 30%+) the effective health increase from more damage reduction is gonna outperform the health easily. Also the value of health increase for tanks greatly depends on the maximum damage spike a boss can inflict on the tank. If you can ensure that you never get oneshotted and the healer has enough time to react the value for health drops to zero if there are no abilites scaling with it. If you neglect that point you still have the problem with health increase that it doesn't scale with any healing like damage reduction does. So you can only assume that the health pool increase would be equal to a compareable damage reduction if the healer can output enough healing to top you in every situation. Put simply more max. health has zero value if you are never at 100% health since you take to much damage. Overall it is pretty much safe to say that Heavy armor will probably be total crap on fights that are heavy on magic damage.
ShroudedFox wrote: » ok I concede I probably over generalised in my first post with plate>cloth for tanks, and I didn't consider how much damage mitigation could trump bonus health, but if we're talking about pvp it changes and in general I feel medium armour might be what tanks end up using for pvp, it all seems highly situational (which leading to specialisation, maybe a guild needs tanks specialised for magic and physical, maybe some boss fights will require both) .
ShroudedFox wrote: » Earlier I was really just trying to illustrate this point "Weapons and armor are not class locked, but certain classes are more efficient with certain types of weapons or armor."
Grievousness wrote: » Yea, I guess playing tanks for over a decade just makes me more sensible on tank topics. I think assuming that classes will be much more set in stone on armor and weapons is realistic to assume. In fact I think people are totally overestimating the level of freedom that the classes will have in playstyle. Right now it is still to early to tell for sure. We need more information on how much secondary Archetypes will be able to individualize classes to further discover how it will play out.
