DPS Meter Megathread

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Akubayne

I'm on board with what the devs are thinking. Mods and DPS meters kinda suck and I'm looking forward to a more immersive experience without them.

Noaani

Akubane wrote: »

I'm on board with what the devs are thinking. Mods and DPS meters kinda suck and I'm looking forward to a more immersive experience without them.

I'm on board with having the game designed in a way where that is something you can actually do.

If the game leaves combat trackers up to third parties, you will be expected to have one running eventually.

If the game has one built in to the client, but where only some guilds will opt to use it, people will not expect you to have one running unless you are in such a guild - at which point it would only work on members of that guild.

So really, the only way for players that absolutely don't want to have to deal with a combat tracker in Ashes to actually be able to have that be the case is if Intrepid implement one in a limited fashion in to the games client.

Bla814

noaani wrote: »

I would happily put my money on them over a dedicated IT security firm (or, like, Intel). I don't consider a company that specalizes in making games to have any real shot, to be perfectly honest.

I actually thought about your answer for a while and came to the conclusion that I simply don't know enough about programming and IT-security to debate what you're saying. I guess I'm relying more on the community to counteract the usage of third-party software. If Intrepid takes a firm stance against it, the majority of the playerbase will accept that the even playing-field for AoC doesnt involve combat-trackers. I would assume that players would report others for breaking those rules and then we gotta see how those cases could be handled.

Noaani

Bla814 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

I would happily put my money on them over a dedicated IT security firm (or, like, Intel). I don't consider a company that specalizes in making games to have any real shot, to be perfectly honest.

I actually thought about your answer for a while and came to the conclusion that I simply don't know enough about programming and IT-security to debate what you're saying. I guess I'm relying more on the community to counteract the usage of third-party software. If Intrepid takes a firm stance against it, the majority of the playerbase will accept that the even playing-field for AoC doesnt involve combat-trackers. I would assume that players would report others for breaking those rules and then we gotta see how those cases could be handled.

To be fair, I don't know that much about IT security either - all I know is the work they have done in the past, most of which I had previously heard about via things like Level-1 news.

---

The only other game that has taken a firm stance against them similar to how Ashes is, was GW2.

You are now free to use third party trackers in GW2.

This is the reality that Intrepid will find themselves in sooner or later if they maintain their current stance.

Tragnar

I am truly interested to hear more about this topic and to wait for the next alpha release. What many people here do not realise is that this is not about if there are going to be third party tracker tools, but on how many intrusive restrictions intrepid will introduce to slow down the creation of such tools.

The only reason why these tools will not exist in some form is if this game is going to be just a social experiment where gameplay actually doesnt matter

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

I am truly interested to hear more about this topic and to wait for the next alpha release. What many people here do not realise is that this is not about if there are going to be third party tracker tools, but on how many intrusive restrictions intrepid will introduce to slow down the creation of such tools.

While this is true, we are only really talking about slowing it down from early beta through to late beta before it is ready.

I don't think Steven understands the dedication of top end PvE players - he's never played a game with top end PvE content, so this is understandable.

Tragnar

It all depends on how many people are going to be playing, if the playerbase is going to be really big then the top end outlier is going to be gigantic - especially with so many build paths they are planning to have

Bla814

Maybe the goal could be to make it so obnoxiously hard to use a combat tracker that only the top players would bother doing it

ZiZi-Jaz-Mina

noaani wrote: »

@SorianLore

SorianLore wrote: »

You don’t have to boot the person to make it a toxic environment...

In business, the companies that micromanage fail, companies that work as a team, trust, and empower their people succeed. Groups of players is no different (and I’ve lead both).

That L2 tracker was likely against the ToS as I don’t recall it being allowed by NCSoft. I.e. folks could get banned if caught.

Just assume "booting someone" is shorthand for all forms of toxic behavior, as they all exist in the same capacity - one player choses to be toxic towards another for reasons that are essentially abstract (and more often than not, abstract reasons that don't originate from the game).

It is absolutely true that in business, groups that trust their team are more successul than those that don't. Thing is, teams with access to large amounts of relevant objective data do better than teams that don't.

The best teams are those that work well together, trust each other, but have access to objective data as well.

I see no reason why objective data has to have any direct or indirect impact on trust between people.

While it may technically be possible that players would get banned if they were known to use that specific tracker, NCsoft can't detect it at all, and there are no players that have reported being banned from using it.

The fact is though, that this tracker exists points out that the notion of no tracker in Ashes is simply not a potential reality. The only possible outcomes are third party tracker, or first party tracker.

Intrepid can either close their eyes and ignore the fact that several of these will exist, or they can take steps to ensure Ashes has the best possible outcome for the most possible people in regartds to trackers.

Right now, they seem to be simply closing their eyes and ignoring the fact that they will exist and a very large percentage of players will use them. I think this is the worst possible thing for this game in regards to trackers.

Sure, companies that have key and screen capture devices installed on their employer’s computers where management uses said data are more effective, but have higher turnover rate. The difference between a company and game though, is you have to find a new job to live, you don’t have to continue playing the game if you decide you leave a guild for being toxic. I.e folks are more likely to stick with the game if they have strong personal relationships in that game.

So again I ask, why introduce something That will result in toxicity for a certain percentage of players versus not bring it in when all you lose by not having it is some speed in the combat discovery process?

Tragnar

SorianLore wrote: »

So again I ask, why introduce something That will result in toxicity for a certain percentage of players versus not bring it in when all you lose by not having it is some speed in the combat discovery process?

Any toxicity that can come purely from dps meter is the initial "label" poorly optimized characters are going to have, any guild toxicity from elitism is going to remain even with dps meters gone - you know the goal for any guild is to find likeminded people to enjoy the game with

Also the speed of discovery process is not going to be an issue, but the whether ppl speeding up the discovery process are going to banned for doing so

Noaani

@SorianLore

SorianLore wrote: »

Sure, companies that have key and screen capture devices installed on their employer’s computers where management uses said data are more effective, but have higher turnover rate.

That is entierly dependent on how that data is used - just as the effect of combat trackers on a games population is completely dependent on the rest of the game.

If management use that data to help people improve at their jobs (especially if it is a career or commission position), people are generally happy.

On the other hand, if management use that data for exclusionaly purposes, then that turnover will be high.

This basically just adds to my point that it is the game as a whole (or the workplace as a whole) that causes issues, not the data collection.

So again I ask, why introduce something That will result in toxicity for a certain percentage of players versus not bring it in when all you lose by not having it is some speed in the combat discovery process?

I'm not answering that question directly, because I refute the premise it is built on.

There is no reason at all to assume that if combat trackers are added to Ashes, it will increase the over all amount of toxicity.

In order for this argument to hold weight, we would need to be able to look at any MMO, look at the toxicity level and look at the combat tracker level, and there would need to be some correlation.

That is a bare minimum in order for this to be a valid argument. We could then suggest that there needs to be some causation, not simply correlation - but I don't feel the need to go that far.

The issue with that though, it that even just correlation isn't there.

WoW - high toxicity, high combat tracker.
Archeage - high toxicity, low combat tracker.
EQ2 - low toxicity, high combat tracker.

No correlation between combat tracker and toxicity level of games, ergo that argument holds no weight (this is a point to be made to Steven as much as anyone).

The correlation that can be found in those games though (and one that seems to apply to all MMO's that I've looked in to), is that there is a correlation between toxicity and automated group forming systems.

Rather than the question you asked, I would rather ask if there is no correlation between combat tracker usage and over all toxicity in games, what reason is there to not add a combat tracker?

spladian

I didn't read all 52 pages of this thread so if this has been suggested before, my apologies. An interesting take on DPS meters could be for 'certification' at pre-set check points (e.g. every 5 levels, or every bump in gear score.)

You can make it a personal mini game with the target dummy as the only place the dps meter will work, and if you do enough damage to pass a threshold that would be set inline with the damage you need to do in group play, you get 'certified.' At that point, it could be as simple as flipping a flag on the players account saying he is qualified to do the minimal dps for x content and that he/she has proven it. Makes it easier for auto grouping also as anyone that gets chosen has already qualified for doing enough damage to pass the content - maybe not God tier damage, but enough to do the content.

This lets 'elite' players push the limits, but doesn't interfere with pub groups as people know that at least for damage, there is enough of it in the group.

Spladian

Bla814

noaani wrote: »

WoW - high toxicity, high combat tracker.
Archeage - high toxicity, low combat tracker.
EQ2 - low toxicity, high combat tracker.

This seems like some highly subjective "data" you're basing your argument on. On top of that the toxicity-level of a game obviously is influenced by a ton of factors. Your sample of mmo toxicity-level doesnt disprove correlation whatsoever. All it proves is that people can be toxic even without combat-trackers. You would have to single out the effect of combat-trackers, while all other variables stay the same. To my knowledge there is no data to allow that.

And even if combat-trackers arent the direct cause of toxicity, they surely do enable it. I just dont see how removing such an easy-to-use tool of attacking someone elses performance wouldnt remove that instance of toxic behaviour.

rodzor

I agree with Steven's current stance on add-ons/dps meter, do not implement any at all. If you do, the game becomes a machine.

Fenixz

It's rather sad to see what years of mental abuse have done to WoW players.

CxLiBeR

I personally believe by not having a dps meter, it will be a more healthy environment. People won't get fingers pointed at them for their damage, which more often then not happens. It also potentially eliminates the chance of getting talked down to for playing a spec that could do less damage. My personal opinion but i fully back Intrepid and their current stance.

Debase

I really don't care about their being a dps meter in the game or not. However, so we're all clear, if there is content or mechanics that favor or require dps checks for progression, loot rights, whatever.... segments of the community WILL exclude classes and players whose build or ability do not support success whether there is a dps meter or not. Having an overt dps meter... or not... will not change that reality.

Triple

First come the damage meters, then comes the complaints. Without being able to gauge the PVE difficulty or mechanics I would say NO to the dps meters. There might not even be and hard dps checks in the fights, they might revolve around survival or situational awareness. We don't even know how the positioning of any of the big fights would be or the range of our abilities, which could even put them outside of a realistic approach to a meter log. I think the game would be much healthier without them. However, having said that I'll primarily be playing for the PVP

so,.

Yookaja

Stay strong and keep all addons out of game. Nothing good come out of gear scores or dps meters ever. when you give meta slavers to much information whack fun out of players. Happened before and happens again. If you give pass for dps meters you will end up balancing all classes to do same dps instead of making them better, fun and interesting to play. If you don't keep em out of game you will have forum full of people whining because they don't do same dps as class x until you balance them even. Everyone will be forced to use same subclass and use same skills just to meet those requirements. Let people keep variety in game.
Some people may want to reach same goals by taking sustain route they are bit slower but safer. some people want to take tankier subclass so they can off tank single mobs when tank doesn't have time. all those ways will lead to same result with little difference in speed and huge difference in fun because it's fun to build something that fits for you and be good with it. Or does someone really think it's fun to be forced to watch guides how to play your class as meta dictates because you don't reach high enough numbers. There will be point when you are forced to do that if we let dps meters and addons in game. Please let fights and learning be ingame experience.

Qweick

I feel like MMOs were more fun before DPS meters went mainstream.

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