With the currently envisioned corruption system, how hard would it be for a Non-PvPer to avoid PvP?

Is the corruption system designed to allow for more peaceful players to thrive? Or just to temper the more extreme / unfair acts of PvP like griefing and low level ganking?

I have a friend who's interest in a lot of the RP and artisan (potat -game) aspects of the game, but does not like PvP at all. I assume everyone will experience some PvP, but to what extent do you think this system will assist players to avoid PvP, if at all?

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Cemmos

Keep in mind that valuable resources aren't level-based or -locked in high level areas specifically. They will appear where they most naturally fit in Verra. So in that sense, you may not be able to necessarily avoid certain people, depending on what they're trying to accomplish in the area you're in.

PvP will be a very natural part of the game, but at the same time there will be plenty of people or guilds that go after corrupted players specifically. I wouldn't doubt that a person could just ask for help in chat and people would help out. A lot of the systems are great for community building, and for as many griefers there are, you'll likely have more people on the other side of the coin, taking them on.

Atama

Fildydarie wrote: »

@Atama The PKer has to be corrupted first, and their victims have to choose to not flag. That means requiring people to take a greater penalty on themselves. I just don't see that happening.

If there was mandatory corruption for attacking a non-combatant, or non-combatants lost less than combatants on death, then corruption would be a factor. As it stands, victims are encouraged to minimize the corruption of their attacker. That is where the corruption system ultimately breaks down as a deterrence. It doesn't matter how effective it is numerically if nobody wants their attacker to gain corruption in the first place.

PKers can target players who are AFK, may be able to stun people, might attack people they can kill in one or a few hits... Those are situations where corruption will occur. And we don’t know how often players will choose to not flag themselves when attacked. That’s what testing will show.

I don't know that the random respawn is a particularly big deal either. It is only a concern if you have corruption (and since other people don't want you to get corruption that seems like the less common situation) at the point where you determine you are ready to die. If the random is random-anywhere-in-the-world, I expect this will become a fast travel exploit. If it is random-in-the-general-area, then it just slows down organized corruption cleansing, but what is to stop you from stripping naked and letting anyone kill you? Since you're ready for it you'll have nothing to take damage or lose, so it just comes back to this being part of the grinding for people that want to grief. It actually seems to me that the best thing you can do to someone who is corrupted is to let them kill you without fighting back. Eventually they will have so much corruption they won't be able to PvP meaningfully at all--but this requires everybody to get on board and not kill them ever; it really isn't a viable plan as it requires 100% community support.

It directly contradicts your assertion that all you need to do is get a friend to repeatedly kill you to remove corruption. That’s not going to work if they need to ride halfway across the map to find you after killing you the first time. Did you forget the post I quoted from you?

Your arguments have been made hundreds of times over the years I’ve been on the board. You’re not saying anything new. None of your concerns mean much until we see the system in play.

ZoddTheImmortal

I also have friends interested in AoC that are scared of nonconsensual PvP. I am trying my best to convince them it is an amazing feature that keeps even grinding PvE content exciting and unpredictable.
I am absorbing as much AoC info as I can get my greedy little hands on. That being said, I am pretty new around here so please forgive my ignorance if I ask something that is well known.

Does the Corruption penalty only happen on killing a player or is it based off of attacks against a player?

If it only results from death, I can envision some rascals sneaking up on people fighting some tough mobs and doing some well timed hits or CCs that result in the players getting killed by the mobs.
Simply for the lulz.
I mean that will probably happen anyway, but certainly more often if there is no penalty.
I am fine with this scenario, I love that stuff. I just don't want to lie to my friends about the possibility.
Thanks for any help on clarification!

Edit: The Wiki makes it sound like it only cares about death. So you can hit and CC anyone as much as you want. Hilarious. Makes me wonder about if you're in a group and someone in your group kills a non-combatant. Do you also get Corruption? Interesting stuff!

NelsonRebel

The thing with pvp open world here is thats not a good idea for many reasons.

The world around players is driven and influenced by PvErs. In order for the pvpers to do more than small petty battles they essentially require the pvers to drive the engine that is the node system to open up the more interesting features in AoC

Its part of what drew me to AoC since I am BIG on story line and quests and lore. Its almost as important to me as the combat honestly. But I also enjoy pvp, so seeing a unique design like AoC is trying to have the two compliment and drive one another along with player driven politics and other things just is a extremely appealing thing.

Aeri

Fildydarie wrote: »

Corruption has no real consequences, however. Oh, sure, while you have it there is an impact (although not in PvE), and if you're corrupted and a player kills you there are those penalties, but the trick there is to ensure that the player who kills you while you are corrupted is a friend. You go slaughter people, then let your buddy kill you. Don't forget to strip naked to minimize the durability loss. Too much corruption? Repeat. Now you ganked a bunch of people, got loot from them, which has now been handed off to your buddy, and all you're left with is some XP debt to repay. You're max level; what did you need XP for anyway? You'll get it back doing whatever you were going to do.

Corruption absolutely has real consequences. While you are corrupted, you receive 4x the death penalties, which includes experience debt and durability loss. Per the wiki, the experience debt includes skill/stat dampening (different than the PvP-only dampening corruption itself has), lower health/mana, lower gear proficiency, and less loot drops from monsters.

Even if you have your friend be the one the kill you, so you don't really lose your equipment, each death is essentially 4x what you'd have to make up for with a non-corrupted death. That means lots of XP debt, lots of durability loss, and way higher repair costs.

Corruption also has a historical component. While you can reduce your PK counter through a quest, the more you PK without doing so means the faster you get corrupted, which means the more your friend needs to kill you, which means the more XP debt you have to work off.

That's also assuming you don't accrue more corruption than can be cleared in a single death. Friend kills you once > you spawn randomly > someone else kills you because why not try it? > possible gear loss.

Fildydarie wrote: »

The PKer has to be corrupted first, and their victims have to choose to not flag. That means requiring people to take a greater penalty on themselves. I just don't see that happening.

If there was mandatory corruption for attacking a non-combatant, or non-combatants lost less than combatants on death, then corruption would be a factor. As it stands, victims are encouraged to minimize the corruption of their attacker. That is where the corruption system ultimately breaks down as a deterrence. It doesn't matter how effective it is numerically if nobody wants their attacker to gain corruption in the first place.

I'm not personally huge on PvP. I'll do it on occasion, but I would totally not flag myself if I didn't have much that would drop, and I didn't think I could win. Based on my experience playing BDO, people not flagging for PvP happens more than one might think.

Fildydarie wrote: »

I don't know that the random respawn is a particularly big deal either. It is only a concern if you have corruption (and since other people don't want you to get corruption that seems like the less common situation) at the point where you determine you are ready to die. If the random is random-anywhere-in-the-world, I expect this will become a fast travel exploit. If it is random-in-the-general-area, then it just slows down organized corruption cleansing, but what is to stop you from stripping naked and letting anyone kill you? Since you're ready for it you'll have nothing to take damage or lose, so it just comes back to this being part of the grinding for people that want to grief. It actually seems to me that the best thing you can do to someone who is corrupted is to let them kill you without fighting back. Eventually they will have so much corruption they won't be able to PvP meaningfully at all--but this requires everybody to get on board and not kill them ever; it really isn't a viable plan as it requires 100% community support.

The random respawn is "in the vicinity of their death" according to the wiki, so it probably won't be a fast travel exploit.

As far as stripping naked, unless you store that gear in a warehouse so that you aren't carrying it, it won't matter. Gear has a chance to drop whether it is equipped or not. And if you run into a city when you're corrupted to use the bank, I would be willing to bet quite a number of people would attempt to kill you before you could store all your stuff. You could, I suppose strip and give everything to your friend before they kill you.

As for the last part, because of the way the game is designed, your character will likely have a reputation. If you get known as a ganker, I find it quite possible that a significant number of people wouldn't bother trying to fight back and actively kill you. Particularly if you're running around naked, since you probably wouldn't be able to do much to hurt them, and they know they wouldn't get anything to drop if they killed you.

Corruption might not be a massive deterrent, and it may not be super common, but I don't think it's going to be as risk-less as you think.

Frosty_Tips

@Aeri to add to your note, NPCs in town will not do business, the banker will not let you bank, if you are corrupted.

@ZoddTheImmortal the corruption only occurs if you deal the killing blow, so you can try to only half kill someone and then walk away and see if a mob kills them, but since AoC does not let us see other people's exact health bars, you are risking it if you think your hit will only mostly kill them but not fully kill them. And nothing I have seen said by the devs has pointed towards the whole group sharing the corruption, it seems only you the killer gets the corruption.

Skuld

The problem I see here is that most people won't even gain any corruption because most people WILL fight back. And as soon as they fight back, the attacker will not gain corruption. There's almost no point in the corruption system at all with the way it is right now.
The only people who probably won't fight back are the ones who have no recources to loose, but even then they'll get a higher exp penalty than someone who fights back.

It's just hard to make the game enjoyable for pvp and pve players alike because one side will always be on the short end. Mainly because there are too many trolls out there who actually have nothing better to do than to annoy the hell out of you. It's almost always the community itself that ruins everything

Lfmr

Skuld wrote: »

The problem I see here is that most people won't even gain any corruption because most people WILL fight back. And as soon as they fight back, the attacker will not gain corruption. There's almost no point in the corruption system at all with the way it is right now.
The only people who probably won't fight back are the ones who have no recources to loose, but even then they'll get a higher exp penalty than someone who fights back.

It's just hard to make the game enjoyable for pvp and pve players alike because one side will always be on the short end. Mainly because there are too many trolls out there who actually have nothing better to do than to annoy the hell out of you. It's almost always the community itself that ruins everything

The way I understood it, the game isn't being designed with PvE or PvP players in mind, it's being designed for people who fall into both boats. When you try to appease everyone, you appease no one, so this game will hopefully stick to it's niche and be great for it's target audience instead of being mediocre for everyone.

Atama

Skuld wrote: »

The problem I see here is that most people won't even gain any corruption because most people WILL fight back. And as soon as they fight back, the attacker will not gain corruption. There's almost no point in the corruption system at all with the way it is right now.
The only people who probably won't fight back are the ones who have no recources to loose, but even then they'll get a higher exp penalty than someone who fights back.

That’s not a problem. That’s how the game is supposed to be played. The corruption system is a safeguard, a safety net to curb unrestrained ganking. If it is rarely in play then the game’s system is working remarkably well.

It's just hard to make the game enjoyable for pvp and pve players alike because one side will always be on the short end. Mainly because there are too many trolls out there who actually have nothing better to do than to annoy the hell out of you. It's almost always the community itself that ruins everything

As said before, this game is not meant for PvP or PvE players. This game is designed for players who mix both together. If you fall under the camp of someone only interested in one or the other this isn’t the game for you.

Jubilum

What I think is going to happen is each server will have a different flavor when it comes to pvp. Although Steven has said no servers will have different rules, It is human nature for people to be drawn to somewhere the community is geared towards their play style. I personally plan on creating 4-5 characters on different servers on launch day and level all of them for a few weeks until it all shakes out and make my main on the one that is the best fit for me.

You will have some servers that are hardcore, with KoS occurring continuously. Corruption will mean nothing here. It will be impossible for a any pve oriented player to exist or even function on this flavor of server. My guess this will about 20% of servers. The players here will be the hardcore canker who care nothing about other players feelings or play style they just want to kill people.

Then you will have the pvx servers which will probably be around 70% of servers. This is where most of the people excited about the game will be drawn to. These servers will have open world/non-consensual pvp most of it will be for a reason and fit into the IS vision of what they want the game to be. A 100% pve play will find it difficult to function here. But, a pve player who is willing to take on the risk v reward and participate in meaningful pvp will find a home and thrive on these servers.

And last you will have a few server that end up being more pve centered. Open world/non-consensual pvp will be rare here. Meaningful pvp will happen but it will be on a much smaller scale and for a specific reason. The problem will occur on these servers when the people from the first group get bored of killing people that don't care and shed no tears. This is not why they play, they survive on those precious tears and will show up on these types of servers either individually to raise havoc for a few hours gathering their supply of tears then head back home. Or they will show up in force and attempt to destroy those nasty carebears and suck all life out of the server before they go back home. They will play the long game initially showing up to create a character, level it, gear it and keep it in their pocket until they drop the hammer.

There will be a handful of other servers that are a mix of the above types

Atama

jubilum wrote: »

What I think is going to happen is each server will have a different flavor when it comes to pvp. Although Steven has said no servers will have different rules, It is human nature for people to be drawn to somewhere the community is geared towards their play style.

I agree with you. Here is how I can see this happening.

A major multi-game guild devoted to player-killing decides they want to go to Server X. Then another PK guild hears that the other one is going to Server X and decide to join them out of fun. Other guilds follow. (I’ve seen boards dedicated to people across various online games into PK so this kind of communication and coordination isn’t totally implausible.)

Next thing you know, Server X is known as the “PK server”. They don’t cheat, they play within the rules and just deal with whatever consequences of corruption they get (though with such a huge PK population they probably have no shortage of purple opponents and might not have that much corruption). The community knows that the server should be avoided if you don’t want to risk being attacked all the time unless you want to join a roving PK gang.

Really, I don’t see the problem. I guess if you start on a server like that which becomes a PK server and Intrepid charges you to move to another server that might be a problem, but maybe they’d waive a fee temporarily if enough players petition.

Zhab

Skuld wrote: »

The problem I see here is that most people won't even gain any corruption because most people WILL fight back. And as soon as they fight back, the attacker will not gain corruption. There's almost no point in the corruption system at all with the way it is right now.
The only people who probably won't fight back are the ones who have no recources to loose, but even then they'll get a higher exp penalty than someone who fights back.

If I'm level 10 and a level 43 rolls around I'm not fighting back. What is the point ? I would rather die once and get 100% penalty then have them earn massive corruption ("summoning" bounty hunters). Because if I fight back to reduce death penalty to 50%... then that player kills me again (an other 50%)... and again (an other 50%) and kills me again (an other 50%)... Yeah... I'd rather die just once or maybe even twice at 100% and actually make that player pay a cost for ganking me.

Aardvark

daxiongmao87 wrote: »

Is the corruption system designed to allow for more peaceful players to thrive? Or just to temper the more extreme / unfair acts of PvP like griefing and low level ganking?

I have a friend who's interest in a lot of the RP and artisan (potat -game) aspects of the game, but does not like PvP at all. I assume everyone will experience some PvP, but to what extent do you think this system will assist players to avoid PvP, if at all?

There will be griefers and if they only turn purple then they can reearn green and grief you agian and repeat. There will be lots on unwanted pvp in the pve area especially in the uninstanced boss and raid areas

Atama

Zhab wrote: »

Skuld wrote: »

The problem I see here is that most people won't even gain any corruption because most people WILL fight back. And as soon as they fight back, the attacker will not gain corruption. There's almost no point in the corruption system at all with the way it is right now.
The only people who probably won't fight back are the ones who have no recources to loose, but even then they'll get a higher exp penalty than someone who fights back.

If I'm level 10 and a level 43 rolls around I'm not fighting back. What is the point ? I would rather die once and get 100% penalty then have them earn massive corruption ("summoning" bounty hunters). Because if I fight back to reduce death penalty to 50%... then that player kills me again (an other 50%)... and again (an other 50%) and kills me again (an other 50%)... Yeah... I'd rather die just once or maybe even twice at 100% and actually make that player pay a cost for ganking me.

I’m sure there are going to be people who defiantly die to give the opponent corruption. It probably won’t happen most of the time because people don’t want to lose more stuff and the instinct to fight back is strong. But it will probably happen enough to give people pause when they consider attacking a green player.

But you also need to remember that Ashes plans to be a low information game. You’re not going to know that the person attacking you is 33 levels above you. They’re not going to have a level indicator over their head like you see in most MMOs. You won’t even see their hit points, just maybe a percentage. And with cosmetics you can’t look at gear to see how strong they are. Maybe you can figure it out if they are casting a spell that you know isn’t available before level 40 but that’s just a maybe.

Zhab

Atama wrote: »

But you also need to remember that Ashes plans to be a low information game. You’re not going to know that the person attacking you is 33 levels above you. They’re not going to have a level indicator over their head like you see in most MMOs. You won’t even see their hit points, just maybe a percentage. And with cosmetics you can’t look at gear to see how strong they are. Maybe you can figure it out if they are casting a spell that you know isn’t available before level 40 but that’s just a maybe.

Actually you are wrong about that. Steven has confirmed in a Q&A that you can know someone's level by targeting them. You will also have an idea of the type and grade of equipment they have. He calls that player "threat assessment". You will not know HP or even a bar. But there will be a name plate that degrade in quality as target loses HP. So you will have an idea of how close or far you were when you go down the first time.

Furthermore, you telling me that someone has killed you 4 times already and you are confronted for a 5th time to that player... you will STILL bravely fight back to "lose less" for the 5th time ? Not saying that such a thing will be common or that it will happen often but say it is happening to you. At no point will you decide that it's perhaps best not to fight back and wreck that player with corruption ? 50% times 5 is 250% death penalty + five times the respawn and walk back trouble on top of that. I'm just saying...

Corruption system isn't meant to stop PvP. It is meant to discourage abuses. Like the scenario I gave as an example.

Edit: Even if you did not have any information. After being easily killed 4 times by that same player... you would know what is up even if you don't have specific numbers.

Atama

Zhab wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

But you also need to remember that Ashes plans to be a low information game. You’re not going to know that the person attacking you is 33 levels above you. They’re not going to have a level indicator over their head like you see in most MMOs. You won’t even see their hit points, just maybe a percentage. And with cosmetics you can’t look at gear to see how strong they are. Maybe you can figure it out if they are casting a spell that you know isn’t available before level 40 but that’s just a maybe.

Actually you are wrong about that. Steven has confirmed in a Q&A that you can know someone's level by targeting them. You will also have an idea of the type and grade of equipment they have. He calls that player "threat assessment". You will not know HP or even a bar. But there will be a name plate that degrade in quality as target loses HP. So you will have an idea of how close or far you were when you go down the first time.

I missed that. Thanks for that. I’ve been worried about them withholding too much info and I’m glad they’re drawing a line.

Furthermore, you telling me that someone has killed you 4 times already and you are confronted for a 5th time to that player... you will STILL bravely fight back to "lose less" for the 5th time ? Not saying that such a thing will be common or that it will happen often but say it is happening to you. At no point will you decide that it's perhaps best not to fight back and wreck that player with corruption ? 50% times 5 is 250% death penalty + five times the respawn and walk back trouble on top of that. I'm just saying...

I don’t recall where I said anything close to that. Someone catches you off-guard at some point and attacks you, you might let them kill you once just to spite them with corruption. 5 times in a row? Where the hell did I say anything that stupid?! That’s some bad reading right there.

No, I’d do it once, if somehow he ran me down again I’d fight back or even run away. If I got killed twice I’d get out of the area before he found me again, I’m no idiot!

Corruption system isn't meant to stop PvP. It is meant to discourage abuses. Like the scenario I gave as an example.

I’m intimately familiar with the purpose of corruption, after more than 2 1/2 years talking about it on three different forums I have probably seen every argument there is about it.

Edit: Even if you did not have any information. After being easily killed 4 times that by the same player... you would know what is up even if you don't have specific numbers.

I doubt I’m getting taken out 4 times by the same player unless it’s as part of a siege or some other ongoing PvP contest that I’m trying to participate in.

Zhab

Atama wrote: »

I don’t recall where I said anything close to that. Someone catches you off-guard at some point and attacks you, you might let them kill you once just to spite them with corruption. 5 times in a row? Where the hell did I say anything that stupid?! That’s some bad reading right there.

Alright. Then I rest my case. You admit that you would make use of the corruption system if the circumstances calls for it (however rare that might be).

Side note: I seriously doubt that a level 10 will somehow be able to run away from a level 43 (movement skills, equipment, mount and mana points... Nothing in the lvl 10's favor) . Furthermore it isn't about being dumb. The player could follow you where you go. How ? Maybe he is ranger and have tracking skill. Why ? Maybe you accidentally insulted that player in chat or something and he/she just wont let it go. Why doesn't really matter. If you've been a gamer for a long time, then you definitively know that complete jerks are not a myth. Some even get banned because of it.

Atama

Zhab wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

I don’t recall where I said anything close to that. Someone catches you off-guard at some point and attacks you, you might let them kill you once just to spite them with corruption. 5 times in a row? Where the hell did I say anything that stupid?! That’s some bad reading right there.

Alright. Then I rest my case. You admit that you would make use of the corruption system if the circumstances calls for it (however rare that might be).

Side note: I seriously doubt that a level 10 will somehow be able to run away from a level 43 (movement skills, equipment, mount and mana points... Nothing in the lvl 10's favor) . Furthermore it isn't about being dumb. The player could follow you where you go. How ? Maybe he is ranger and have tracking skill. Why ? Maybe you accidentally insulted that player in chat or something and he/she just wont let it go. Why doesn't really matter. If you've been a gamer for a long time, then you definitively know that complete jerks are not a myth. Some even get banned because of it.

It’s very easy to get away. Stupidly easy. Log out.

Nizzikef

As far as I know, the Corruption system is basically a carbon copy of Lineage II's Karma system, which I absolutely love. Aside from one major detail that IMO brings a lot of balance to it. When your corrupted, players who attack you are flagged for combat allowing you to defend yourself and not incur further corruption at least that's what I've gathered from the interviews I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong.

That being said I think people are not taking into consideration the limitations and risks that being "corrupted" brings. Not everyone is going to want to go red at the drop of a hat, while others might see no issue with killing you outright so as to not compete for leveling/farming areas. There will probably be dedicated characters for PKing. In L2 they were known as "perma reds" and would generally be high level characters with crap gear they don't care about losing and run around lower level zones terrorizing noobs that have no chance of fighting back. This of course with the intention of never working the karma off, hench perma red. Steven knows all about this and I'm sure will be instituting systems to negate or at least severely limit the idea of a perma red character.

There is a lot of speculation on how this system will curb griefing but we'll never truly know until we get some time in game and see how everything else works alongside it. Let's not forget the omnipresent "Subject-to-Change" plastered everywhere either.

I've played a lot of MMO's, and honestly, L2 was pretty lax on griefing when it came to PVP, as in there was almost none. You would worry more about people training large groups of mobs on you than unwanted PvP. Players who are in well-established guilds, max level with end game gear will not be trolling around the starter zones killing level 15's, I just don't see it. Rarely will someone engage you in combat unless they have a real reason to. If they do, 90% of the time they are baiting you into attacking them back so they get a free kill, just don't take the bait.

Atama

Nizzikef wrote: »

As far as I know, the Corruption system is basically a carbon copy of Lineage II's Karma system, which I absolutely love. Aside from one major detail that IMO brings a lot of balance to it. When your corrupted, players who attack you are flagged for combat allowing you to defend yourself and not incur further corruption at least that's what I've gathered from the interviews I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are. A green player who attacks a red one doesn’t turn purple, they stay green, so if the red player fights back and wins they get more corruption. It doesn’t seem fair but I guess they really want corruption to sting.

See below:

In the left-most diagram, green player attacking red stays green.

Child Item