DPS Meter Megathread

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Tragnar

Bla814 wrote: »

I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?

Depends on the baseline difficulty and the extra rewards from doing better. The lower the baseline difficulty then more the raid itself is a reward for itself for gathering the whole group into that place.

As for the extra rewards for doing better is a big question, because if the extra rewards will just give more wealth, then it might be just a question if it is beneficial to do something else to achieve that wealth instead of making your character as strong as possible. On the other hand if the extra rewards give extra bonus power to the raid, then with it comes a certain prestige as well making the raids a bit easier for the better equipped raid next time, to push for even better rewards.

Nastyone

noaani wrote: »

Nastyone wrote: »

If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution

I'm not a fan of this at all.

It takes the idea of a raid from going out and trying to get some better equipment for the raid, to one of going out and trying to get better equipment for yourself.

While this may seem small, it is a change from the raid being there for the raid, to the raid being there for the individual. It creates a shift in player thinking in regards to the raid.

Now, I can see an argument for this kind of loot system for pick up raids, but it is destructive to guilds.

I personally would rather a game like Ashes put guilds above pick up raids, even if a game like WoW doesn't.

I think you forget that the word "personal loot" also can have diffrent mechanics.

For example the Item you optain can be trated afterwards for 2 hours.

The Basic for Group loot and personal loot can be handelt exacty the same:

1. Items drops
2. group/raid rolls
3. a person gets the item

1. the systems rolls hidden who can loot the mob
2. you can give the item away if you want to

the difference is just that the group as one cant decide if a singel person wants to pass on an item at the start.

If there is a Problem with the decision about the item afterwards the Raid/Guild/Player has to find other People to play with.

Noaani

Bla814 wrote: »

I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.

You are assuming that we are talking about two people with the same personalities, who are both more than willing to stand up and shout at each other (in an online capacity).

That isn't how things go in these situations. Without data, people are free to blame who ever they want, and they generally pick people they assume won't fight back. This is why the timid, the meek and the shy generally have a hard time in online games - as they are easy targets for anyone that has no data.

A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?

This is a stance I agree with.

Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.

That is exatly what Ashes is doing.

If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.

I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...

Nastyone

Tragnar wrote: »

Personal loot if Ashes is straight up impossible to work

reason is that you need master crafters to get the loot in the first place and the drop of actual completed items is supposed to be quite small, because majority will come from the harvested materials etc

your assumption is that every loot is bound to the one who picks it up. Is it like that in the actual game?

Tragnar

noaani wrote: »

If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.

I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...

From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it

Nastyone

Bla814 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.

I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.

I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?

I agree with you that the people have a harder time to shift the blame on specific players. They dont have hard facts and no one yet knows what support skills will be available and how strong they are to the group. You cant even tell wich Class brings the least to your current group constellation.

So you dont argue against personal dps Meters, right?

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.

I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...

From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it

All that has been said so far is that they are attempting to prevent most means of gathering data. They have not said anything about account bans - although I would be foolish if I didn't plan on that being a possibility.

If that is what they want to do though, all I can say is - best of luck to them.

Kyizwa

What if it only showed the one that did the most damage to everyone and then each player could see their own damage, that would let people feel acomplished by being the first in damage and would also help the players see if they're behind for a lot or not.

Tragnar

Yeah all we have is their stance on it - the length on how far do they want to enforce this vision is unknown

Noaani

Nastyone wrote: »

I think you forget that the word "personal loot" also can have diffrent mechanics.

For example the Item you optain can be trated afterwards for 2 hours.

The Basic for Group loot and personal loot can be handelt exacty the same:

1. Items drops
2. group/raid rolls
3. a person gets the item

1. the systems rolls hidden who can loot the mob
2. you can give the item away if you want to

the difference is just that the group as one cant decide if a singel person wants to pass on an item at the start.

If there is a Problem with the decision about the item afterwards the Raid/Guild/Player has to find other People to play with.

This seems to me to be the worst of a lot of potential options - it's basically RNG master looter.

There are better systems for pick ups, and there are better systems for guild raids. To me, this kind of system has no merit.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Yeah all we have is their stance on it - the length on how far do they want to enforce this vision is unknown

This is true, though it is worth noting that any fight Intrepid put in to it will cost them time and money, where as the people they would be fighting are doing it basically for fun.

These people are used to taking on much bigger, more organized organizations and coming out on top. They also have access to more tools here than they are used to having access to. One option they are looking at is using a specific version of a specific browser, that has specific issues that can be exploited to read memory in a completely undectable way. If there is anything kept clientside, they will be able to see it, and the only way Intrepid could stop it is to not allow one of the most popular browsers to be run at the same time as the game client.

Then there are the hardware based ideas they have - which could result in Intrepid needing to not allow the game to be played on several generations of Intel processors if they wanted to block it.

My expectation is that Intrepid will outsource this kind of thing to a third party - problem with that is, they may outsource it to a few of the people that are developing these tools.

Tragnar

I see DPS meter topic in this way:

If Ashes will be a game where the existence of DPS meters allow players to play better and at the same time the use of DPS meters is forbidden then it is by my opinion a design failure. The game should not produce a need in players that is forbidden by the rules.

For example what I mean is that it would be the same mistake to allow node sieges at any time, but banning the players for declaring them outside of the server prime time.

In other words if damage is going to matter, then dps meters will matter as well

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

I see DPS meter topic in this way:

If Ashes will be a game where the existence of DPS meters allow players to play better and at the same time the use of DPS meters is forbidden then it is by my opinion a design failure. The game should not produce a need in players that is forbidden by the rules.

For example what I mean is that it would be the same mistake to allow node sieges at any time, but banning the players for declaring them outside of the server prime time.

In other words if damage is going to matter, then dps meters will matter as well

Completely agreed - except expand it to everything a combat tracker can do.

If damage, healing, mitigation, blocking, dodging, CC'ing, buffing and/or debuffing matter, then combat trackers will matter as well.

This is a part of the reason there will be a combat tracker in every MMO. Players are not in a position to know if a combat tracker matters until we have one to tell us if it matters or not.

But yes, you are exactly right that if the design of the game leaves players wanting a combat tracker, not including it in the games client is a design mistake.

Dummo

Kyizwa wrote: »

What if it only showed the one that did the most damage to everyone and then each player could see their own damage, that would let people feel acomplished by being the first in damage and would also help the players see if they're behind for a lot or not.

What do you think about this? @noaani

Bla814

noaani wrote: »

Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.

From what i know, most MMOs dont actively hinder and punish the use of those addons though. That could be AoCs different approach and it could result in a different outcome.

Nastyone wrote: »

So you dont argue against personal dps Meters, right?

Right. The point i was making in that post would allow personal meters to exist. However I am overall against any form of combat-tracking in AoC.

On a more general topic: I keep reading about "needing" a combat-tracker. These tools are never required for playing the game. They just make certain aspects of improvement easier. You could absolutely do any content in any MMO without these tools. It would just take more time and players would need to come up with different ways to assess performance.

Tragnar

Bla814 wrote: »

On a more general topic: I keep reading about "needing" a combat-tracker. These tools are never required for playing the game. They just make certain aspects of improvement easier. You could absolutely do any content in any MMO without these tools. It would just take more time and players would need to come up with different ways to assess performance.

The "needing" is not used in exclusivity sense, but more like "do you want to use medieval tools or to pickup modern machinery?"

Bla814

Using medieval tools sounds like a ton of fun imo!

Amel

I just assume that anyone who is against meters are terrible players that dont want to be found out. And usually when i read their post, they seem to have no clue how to use them or what they actually track.

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