Group focused- rock,paper,scissors- bad dynamic

Hi guys, i'm now reading all the wiki, that i missed somehow, and i saw this...
"There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy."

I think i'm going to post a lot of discussions when i have time, becouse i think there are many bad interpretations of good game dynamics/mechanics .
Why do i think this idea is bad for the game and will be pretty weak.

the rock-paper-scissor is a dynamic that originates from martial arts ... where you have to choose the type of attack to kill the enemy, the idea behind the concept is choise, you need to reflect, perceive and intuit the enemy ... this is called a "balanced" fight, and introduce to the strategy.
Now immagine the game, but you can only use 1 of the 3 moves (rock,paper,scissors) , that's ashes of creation idea right there.
"it's going to be Very dependent on Skill and Strategy"!

but you can only have one class ... win against come enemies, do some stuff ... so at the end your one dimentional character is going to give you epic moments of Strategy

That's a fault.

the rock paper scissor mechanic is ment to fit into one character, so you can choose and be strategic, otherwise there is 0 strategy involved.
So it's bad to have a 1 vs 1 where one class will be superior to another, that's not balance at all. That's a railroad gameplay, not even a Game.

I wanted to get you noticed that the ashes creators are rly nice, good people, players and fans of the mmorpg genre, but they need a serious game designer with them to help, otherwise i fear the will be uncapable of making a Great mmorps as we all expect. I don't know, right now this is my forma-mentis, but i'm rly excited for the game and the project. But right now i don't see it working well, maybe it needs just time.

So speaking about this dynamic i read and explaining more ... a strategy is when you have the choise in your "hand" (lol) , when you speak with a guy and ask to him ... what's the next move dude? Giving to the players only the scissor or the paper will kill any type of relation and social aspect of this part of the game. Becouse you will have your job, the designer of ashes of creations have already decided for you what to do, like a robot. Do your job ... you are the hand and the DM (devs) are the mind. They act like gamers in this project becouse it's their nature, i think they need a good Game designer ...

The dev comment ( made by Steven Sharif) in the wiki made me shiver.
-"We want there to be counter-play between the different classes ... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field."-

This is not a thirth person strategic game, where you have to coordinate an army of enemies with different classes, it's a mmorpg , everyone is a dude and needs individual counterplay in their kit, the rock-paper-scissor.
Counter-play between the different classes means no counterplay (or much less) individually, in 1 vs 1 situations. If you charge your counter you die, if you are the counter you will win. This is going to Freeze the Meta, same groups, same strategy ("strategy"). So basically there will be 1 option to follow, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present you will not lose, and the fight will be equal ... if you miss a class or an archetype the level will not be equal xD .

i wanna say that the game can be fun with this restriction too, but i hope there will be some counter to some classes, like wow does in some situation with the use of items to cover some weak spots, and give more options for the player.

I hope you devs got the issue and will do something about this

i rly trust in you and your good faith!
For the Alliance!!! just kidding ... pff horde go away ..

Cya then

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bloodprophet

Glad you volunteered.

https://intrepidstudios.com/careers

apmax

Rock paper scissors class balance with hard counters is good, homogeneous class balance is bad.

Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.

Indure

This seems like the standard design philosophy for MMO's. Content is balanced around teams, not 1v1. Rock/paper/scissors is just the catch phrase to mean you have advantages over some classes and disadvantages with others. At the end of the day they just aren't going to spend a lot of energy making sure 1v1 encounters are balanced, because there isn't content to justify the balancing and balancing has the tendency to water down class features and uniqueness.

NelsonRebel

apmax wrote: »

Rock paper scissors class balance with hard counters is good, homogeneous class balance is bad.

Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.

THIS right here. Perfect explanation

I dont mind that a class counters mine. So long as there isnt a class that dominates any one spectrum of combat or even 1-2 classes that do. Like one class dominating all pvp or pve

But what @apmax said about homogenization because one class does X well against X class is what kills pvp for me in games.

ESO used have a interesting dynamic between classes and while some things were overperforming, many skills or abilities were not but simply worked well against one class or another. The only exception being stealth, stealth (for obvious reasons) is an particularly difficult mechanic to balance

Beekeeper

OP, I think I could take your criticism more seriously if you wouldn't consistently formulate it in a way as if addressing teenagers asking for your money.

CaptnChuck

apmax wrote: »

Rock paper scissors class balance with hard counters is good, homogeneous class balance is bad.

Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.

I agree as well. The reason WoW's combat became so boring is because every class got everything.

Cold 0ne FTB

Medrash wrote: »

Hi guys, i'm now reading all the wiki, that i missed somehow, and i saw this...
"There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy."

I think i'm going to post a lot of discussions when i have time, becouse i think there are many bad interpretations of good game dynamics/mechanics .
Why do i think this idea is bad for the game and will be pretty weak.

the rock-paper-scissor is a dynamic that originates from martial arts ... where you have to choose the type of attack to kill the enemy, the idea behind the concept is choise, you need to reflect, perceive and intuit the enemy ... this is called a "balanced" fight, and introduce to the strategy.
Now immagine the game, but you can only use 1 of the 3 moves (rock,paper,scissors) , that's ashes of creation idea right there.
"it's going to be Very dependent on Skill and Strategy"! but you can only have one class ... win against come enemies, do some stuff ... so at the end your one dimentional character is going to give you epic moments of Strategy
That's a fault.

the rock paper scissor mechanic is ment to fit into one character, so you can choose and be strategic, otherwise there is 0 strategy involved.
So it's bad to have a 1 vs 1 where one class will be superior to another, that's not balance at all. That's a railroad gameplay, not even a Game.

I wanted to get you noticed that the ashes creators are rly nice, good people, players and fans of the mmorpg genre, but they need a serious game designer with them to help, otherwise i fear the will be uncapable of making a Great mmorps as we all expect. I don't know, right now this is my forma-mentis, but i'm rly excited for the game and the project. But right now i don't see it working well, maybe it needs just time.

So speaking about this dynamic i read and explaining more ... a strategy is when you have the choise in your "hand" (lol) , when you speak with a guy and ask to him ... what's the next move dude? Giving to the players only the scissor or the paper will kill any type of relation and social aspect of this part of the game. Becouse you will have your job, the designer of ashes of creations have already decided for you what to do, like a robot. Do your job ... you are the hand and the DM (devs) are the mind. They act like gamers in this project becouse it's their nature, i think they need a good Game designer ...

The dev comment ( made by Steven Sharif) in the wiki made me shiver.
-"We want there to be counter-play between the different classes ... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field."-

This is not a thirth person strategic game, where you have to coordinate an army of enemies with different classes, it's a mmorpg , everyone is a dude and needs individual counterplay in their kit, the rock-paper-scissor.
Counter-play between the different classes means no counterplay (or much less) individually, in 1 vs 1 situations. If you charge your counter you die, if you are the counter you will win. This is going to Freeze the Meta, same groups, same strategy ("strategy"). So basically there will be 1 option to follow, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present you will not lose, and the fight will be equal ... if you miss a class or an archetype the level will not be equal xD .

i wanna say that the game can be fun with this restriction too, but i hope there will be some counter to some classes, like wow does in some situation with the use of items to cover some weak spots, and give more options for the player.

I hope you devs got the issue and will do something about this i rly trust in you and your good faith!
For the Alliance!!! just kidding ... pff horde go away ..
Cya then

apmax wrote: »

Rock paper scissors class balance with hard counters is good, homogeneous class balance is bad.

Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.

It is also more than this. Your secondary archtype will give you the ability to mitigate some of the weaknesses of your class. Let's say for instance you play a tank, which is really good close combat situations but is really vulnerable to range combat realistically this would make it weak against Rangers and Mages as they can run away from you and as long as they can effectively kite you, you can't do much. Now lets say you choose the mage subtype, we know from the Dev's that one of the tanks augments when combined with a mage is a gap closer teleport. Now you have a means to catch up to the enemy and to maintain close corridor combat.

This type of system rewards forthought and practice as you need to know the limits of your classes, and the classes that counter your class. From here you can develop strageties and tactics to overcome your weaknesses.

If the classes were just the 8 classes I agree it would be a bit boring and railroady but they are not and you have a huge variety of skills to choose from. What you choose, why you choose it will matter more in this kind of combat and I expect people to be able to beat classes they shouldn't just by understanding their class more and accommodating for their weaknesses.

PlagueMonk

apmax wrote: »

Rock paper scissors class balance with hard counters is good, homogeneous class balance is bad.

Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.

Plus we don't even know exactly how big of an advantage you will get. There is every possibility that even if you are the disadvantaged one, you could still win if you have superior PVP skills. Paper > rock doesn't mean you might as well just give up if you are rock.

Orlando2

As long as player game knowledge and utility items surpasses the 1v1 rock paper scissors class balance, its fine.

Yuyukoyay

well it's meant to incentivize having a Rock, Paper, Scissors, and Gun on your team.

ServNiQ

The Gun, of course, is obviously the Bard.

SamuraiWindu

@Medrash, your arguments are valid for fighting games and simultaneous-play games, but they don’t apply to AoC. Combat in AoC will focus on things like positioning, resource management, timing abilities with status effects, and mechanical skill; not anticipation of your opponent’s moves. Players will be able to choose augments that change abilities to emphasize the aspects of combat that the player prefers. The trinity system is intended to emphasize the importance of having different archetypes in your party.

AoC is a team combat game, much like Overwatch, Team Fortress 2, or your pick of multiplayer online battle arena. Team members fulfill roles in your team; a team lacking a role is at a disadvantage to a team that has that role filled. In a team fight, fights are often decided after the first or second kill, not only because of the difference in numbers, but more importantly because of the deficit in roles. In particular, the roles in AoC are Tank, Damage, and Healing. Since there is only one Tank and one Healer, but six Damage characters, AoC employs a trinity system to spice up PvP interactions.

Medrash1

@bloodprophet

bloodprophet wrote: »

Glad you volunteered.

https://intrepidstudios.com/careers

Thanz you!

i will check this

PlagueMonk

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

well it's meant to incentivize having a Rock, Paper, Scissors, and Gun on your team.

Welllllll, if you are going to 'cheat' we might as well go with rock, paper, scissors, lizard Spock!

Medrash1

@apmax

apmax wrote: »

Rock paper scissors class balance with hard counters is good, homogeneous class balance is bad.

Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.

No ... I don't know what homogeneous class balance means exactly, just class balance. I don't mentioned any homogeneous thing. Maybe you mean that every class will be the same, i didn't said that.

Fighting a class that counters you means a loss, even though you win in a rare situation , or the counter is just bad with the class, you will lose more against him. Whan 2 players of the same level and skill start to fight , the counter will win for sure. That's boring and not fun, not strategic and rewording.
This happen in LoL , in WoW and many new games. This create toxicity as well ... becouse you create a flase sense of skill.

I understand your thought , playing with disadvantage is fun sure, but you can only win if you can counter the enemy , otherwise the disadvantage is unidirectional and unhealthy for a game.

The BALANCE is important!

i don't get your last point, what do you mean ? Abstract away the process of actually playing the game?

the counter mechanics is a fun and important for sure, but i said that each player need that function. You are right that each class is different, but the Rock paper scissors applied class balance works only on teamfights, where a player choose to focus into a rule to be more effective at the cost of rely on teammates.

Taraniss

Medrash wrote: »

Fighting a class that counters you means a loss, even though you win in a rare situation , or the counter is just bad with the class, you will lose more against him. Whan 2 players of the same level and skill start to fight , the counter will win for sure. That's boring and not fun, not strategic and rewording.
This happen in LoL , in WoW and many new games. This create toxicity as well ... becouse you create a flase sense of skill.

.

you are assuming to know how much of an advantage the rock/paper/scissor method has but you have no idea. When we use the term rock/paper/scissor it is just an analogy and not a direct representation. If you and me play R/P/S then we know that paper beats rock 100% of the time.

In an MMO many other things come into consideration. player skill, gear, some RNG all will play a role. If all of a sudden I added a blade on top of my rock it might beat the paper now. For all we know at this point the advantage could equate to something like a 1-5% advantage which is easily negated by skill, gear, and RNG. You are viewing it as strictly R/P/S which is what it might be at the very base and bones of it. The difference is there is going to be layers upon layers of things that will effect and change the results of a fight.

If me and someone else are equal in skill but they have better gear then me I will lose. That is very similar to if me and someone were dead even in skill but I lose to the R/P/S. the reality is you will rarely meet someone who is EXACTLY even to you because you have to factor in gear and RNG. RNG could be anything. I have a piece of gear or an item that gives me 30% chance to lower your attack for 5 seconds. maybe in a particular fight it procs 70% of the time and another it procs not a single time.

Eburin

Your criticism about rock-paper-scissors gameplay only makes sense if the game was going to be balanced around 1v1 matchups, which it isn't. This style of balancing where different types of characters have distinct roles with clear advantages and disadvantages works perfectly in many genres. The easiest genre to see this in is MOBAs like LoL where assassins will kill marksmen 9/10 times in a 1v1 fight yet you still manage to see at least one marksman in every team comp at every level of play due to the unique and important advantages that their role brings to the table. As long as they manage to make sure every class has unique and important strengths to balance the areas they are weak in then this balancing strategy will be perfectly fine.

darthaden

It's impossible to have perfect class balance and still maintain unique class flavor.No MMO in history has even come close to pulling it off. Just because a class is stronger against another class though doesn't mean it can't lose the fight. Skill, gear, and luck will still play a part in PVP.

Bot

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

well it's meant to incentivize having a Rock, Paper, Scissors, and Gun on your team.

I think that's fine as long as 'advantage' stays as just an advantage rather than outright countering. For example, if archer beats mage beats tank beats assassin beats archer then it should due to the strengths of their kits. Archer can outrange mage and do better single target damage, mage has enough cc and damage nukes that limited mobility tanks can't get through easily, tanks can survive assassin burst and win with sustained damage, assassin has the mobility to stick to archer and burst them down, and then we return to the start of the loop.

However, that mage should be able to close the gap with that archer and be capable of landing a burst combo that lets them beat that archer still. Tanks should be able to use well times defense to eat the mage's aoe and use their limited mobility wisely to close the gap, assassins should be able to kite between combos to beat that tank, and archers should be able to use well timed mobility to counter the assassin's gap closers.

Emphasis on skill>everything is the key to me. Using a tier system like bronze/silver/gold/platinum/diamond a platinum rock should beat a gold paper 9/10 times still.

Medrash1

@Indure

Indure wrote: »

This seems like the standard design philosophy for MMO's. Content is balanced around teams, not 1v1. Rock/paper/scissors is just the catch phrase to mean you have advantages over some classes and disadvantages with others. At the end of the day they just aren't going to spend a lot of energy making sure 1v1 encounters are balanced, because there isn't content to justify the balancing and balancing has the tendency to water down class features and uniqueness.

I understand that the balancing of classes can lead to a loss of variety, when you want to semplify everything ... of course the everything will be more balanced, but that doesn't mean that uniqueness cannot coexist with balance. You can be a tank that can survive to everything, or an assassin that can kill everything.

For example , in wow the druid counter the mage becouse he can shapeshift and free himself from many cc of the mage and then charge him... dead mage. The mage can have some counter to the druid that prevents his shapeshifting, or other options to fight him (and not just the freeze one) and maybe the druid something to free himself from that type of magic. This will create a more dynamic spell rotation, based on choise... and not only 1 rotation to use in every situations, where sometimes can be effective (vs warrior) and sometimes not (druids) .
They still druids , but the can counter each other.
In reality every class need to follow his archetype, his style and rules, but the game should allow a master of a certain class to be a Master, and give to him the power of fight every situation, to beat everyone ... if the skill cap of the player is also perfect. Without changing his archetype or identity ...

Look the face of asmongold everytime he faces a mage xD a 1 vs 1 ... do you think he has fun in that moment? when he loses almost everytime.

Of course the game already have some counterplay, becouse if the counter doesn't know how to play correctly he will probably lose. Becouse the base mechanics of the damage output are balanced usually. But the rest of the kit usually is not that balanced, and will lead a stronger class to win 90/100% of the times.
When you balance a class it means that he has the same power and chance to win of all the others. The idea of ashes of creations is to balance only the team fights of a pre-ordered team composition.
That's my issue , hope you get the point.

An MMO can be balanced, it's just not that easy probably. The standard philosophy of a MMOrpg genre (or just rpg) focus on the variety of characters and builds, so it's usually pretty hard to balance it. But the way to get a good mmorpg is to balance every class, keeping his unique value and personality.

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