Unarmed fighting anyone?

Any front line folks curious/hoping there will be an option to fight without a weapon? I've always enjoying a martial arts type/Fist only archetype in the many RPGs i play.

I would LOVE to be a tank slamming folks left and right and punching my way to glory when this game comes out!

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Beekeeper

Always feels strange to me when weapons are just optional, and you can fight just as well without them. In a game about getting stronger gear, why would you get stronger by having less gear?

Atama

It doesn’t feel right for this game. They’re trying to stick pretty close to the western fantasy genre and away from Wuxia stuff.

Not that I hate that kind of thing; I played a rogue in WoW for years with fist weapons (Combat spec) and role-played him as a martial arts monk. That was years before MoP added actual monks. It just doesn’t seem to fit in AoC though.

Kalv1441

Beekeeper wrote: »

Always feels strange to me when weapons are just optional, and you can fight just as well without them. In a game about getting stronger gear, why would you get stronger by having less gear?

From a power gamer stand point, i totally get that. Having brass knuckles or something to that effect would fix that particular issue.

For me it's more the fun/flavor of it. As someone who has enjoyed characters like Zangief from Street Fighter, Udyr from League of Legends, All Might from My Hero Academia, the Monk from Diablo etc, it would just fulfill my particular play style.

Adaon

Atama wrote: »

It doesn’t feel right for this game. They’re trying to stick pretty close to the western fantasy genre and away from Wuxia stuff.

Not that I hate that kind of thing; I played a rogue in WoW for years with fist weapons (Combat spec) and role-played him as a martial arts monk. That was years before MoP added actual monks. It just doesn’t seem to fit in AoC though.

Is dnd not considered western? Monks are a staple there

and most of the classes here are essentially "named" if not themed around a lot of the classes present in DND. Everquest didn't feel particularly "asian" in design or focus, and had monks. Just a thought.

Songcaller

Played Monk in EQ2 and loved Feign Death. Could run the length of a dungeon, feign death, clear aggro and solo the bosses.

Yuyukoyay

I suppose if fists scaled with your stats in some way and there was something to fit in your weapon slot as a fillin.

I suppose you mean with an empty weapon slot though. Probably not with a empty weapon slot.

Beekeeper

Fist weapons are certainly a different matter. The main issue is just that, outside of wuxia, there was never a mystification of unarmed combat. In the western world, this role was filled by magic. Hence, if you want to make a fantasy world where you put unarmed combat on the same stage as shining knights and mighty wizards, you HAVE to draw from wuxia, which is completely divorced from western fantasy.

Atama

Adaon wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

It doesn’t feel right for this game. They’re trying to stick pretty close to the western fantasy genre and away from Wuxia stuff.

Not that I hate that kind of thing; I played a rogue in WoW for years with fist weapons (Combat spec) and role-played him as a martial arts monk. That was years before MoP added actual monks. It just doesn’t seem to fit in AoC though.

Is dnd not considered western? Monks are a staple there and most of the classes here are essentially "named" if not themed around a lot of the classes present in DND. Everquest didn't feel particularly "asian" in design or focus, and had monks. Just a thought.

No. The monks in D&D are absolutely not western fantasy. That was an addition to the game from Kung Fu movie fans to add some eastern flair to the game. Remember that they also added samurai and kitsune and many other sorts of things in “Oriental Adventures” all the way back in 1st Edition AD&D. Not everything in D&D fits into western fantasy. Shall we start pushing for stuff from Spelljammer too...?

Adaon

Beekeeper wrote: »

Always feels strange to me when weapons are just optional, and you can fight just as well without them. In a game about getting stronger gear, why would you get stronger by having less gear?

In many fantasy themed games - it's level that affects your power scaling more than items, monks at least in DND worked that way, and it was thematic to have limited items, in exchange for getting less equipment, they scaled pretty decently simply by leveling. Fists essentially were an always equipped scaling magic weapon which got stronger over time.

Limited armor was part of the theme and of course they were balanced around that as well, essentially having their own "magical justifications" for their power scaling, like a caster - or anyone else. Also a myriad of fantasy games where casters gain more from leveling, than they do from any particular item(harder hitting spells, greater access to spells etc.)

Now I don't actually care if they end up adding monks, but I understand why that's a net positive for the people who find X class desirable, for their to be a class that fields X desire, or has X aesthetic. Magic(the only justification for why just about any class is the way it is), is always conveniently there

Magic translating essentially to "rationale within the lore".

Adaon

Atama wrote: »

Adaon wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

It doesn’t feel right for this game. They’re trying to stick pretty close to the western fantasy genre and away from Wuxia stuff.

Not that I hate that kind of thing; I played a rogue in WoW for years with fist weapons (Combat spec) and role-played him as a martial arts monk. That was years before MoP added actual monks. It just doesn’t seem to fit in AoC though.

Is dnd not considered western? Monks are a staple there and most of the classes here are essentially "named" if not themed around a lot of the classes present in DND. Everquest didn't feel particularly "asian" in design or focus, and had monks. Just a thought.

No. The monks in D&D are absolutely not western fantasy. That was an addition to the game from Kung Fu movie fans to add some eastern flair to the game. Remember that they also added samurai and kitsune and many other sorts of things in “Oriental Adventures” all the way back in 1st Edition AD&D. Not everything in D&D fits into western fantasy. Shall we start pushing for stuff from Spelljammer too...?

I don't see the flaw in the logic - that the same rationale that justifies someones ability to generate fire from thin air, can't also strengthen their fists, or their body, hell wizards had spells to do precisely that, Tensers if I recall,

Beekeeper

I'm so damn tired of the argument that you should just throw literally anything into a setting because "magic exists lol".

If you can't tell the difference between Merlin and Bruce Lee, then I can't help you understand it.

Adaon

Beekeeper wrote: »

I'm so damn tired of the argument that you should just throw literally anything into a setting because "magic exists lol".

If you can't tell the difference between Merlin and Bruce Lee, then I can't help you understand it.

Bruce Lee was a "real life" martial artist, where magic doesn't exist, and Merlin is a fantasy character, who yes, simply has magic, because magic.

Atama

Monks were like mages to me. You didn’t rely on equipment, you relied on knowledge. Just like a mage wearing cloth doesn’t get tougher by putting on plate mail, instead he learns a shielding spell. A monk learns a way to evade like the wind, or make his skin as hard as iron through training. A mage learns a fireball spell instead of picking up a sword, and a monk learns the lotus strike technique to punch through steel.

This will be a game where things are weird. Mages will carry a sword and shield, or a bow. Fighters can use a magic wand. They aren’t tying a class to a weapon style, sort of like how ESO did it.

So in that vein it seems like “martial arts” would be a good fit, except that Intrepid seems pretty insistent on avoiding an “Asian MMO” aesthetic (no “little girl” or “maid” styles, no giant weapons, no eastern-themed gear or classes). I don’t think it would be bad to add it, especially if they made it be a brawling/pugilist style (Queensbury Rules!) but I wouldn’t expect to see it

Adaon

Atama wrote: »

Monks were like mages to me. You didn’t rely on equipment, you relied on knowledge. Just like a mage wearing cloth doesn’t get tougher by putting on plate mail, instead he learns a shielding spell. A monk learns a way to evade like the wind, or make his skin as hard as iron through training. A mage learns a fireball spell instead of picking up a sword, and a monk learns the lotus strike technique to punch through steel.

This will be a game where things are weird. Mages will carry a sword and shield, or a bow. Fighters can use a magic wand. They aren’t tying a class to a weapon style, sort of like how ESO did it.

So in that vein it seems like “martial arts” would be a good fit, except that Intrepid seems pretty insistent on avoiding an “Asian MMO” aesthetic (no “little girl” or “maid” styles, no giant weapons, no eastern-themed gear or classes). I don’t think it would be bad to add it, especially if they made it be a brawling/pugilist style (Queensbury Rules!) but I wouldn’t expect to see it

I have zero qualms with them not adding them - and of course I didn't start this thread, but I do take issue with other peoples poor justifications for not having them. Not having them as a design choice - makes perfect sense. Not having them because, loleasterngarbageoutofhere, not really an argument. I would also say at this point we've "adopted" monks as a western concept, and I draw a large chasm between the asian model/aesthetic mmorpgs - and simply having a class that punches people with magic.

UO had unarmed skill(wrestling), DND has monks, EQ had monks, those are all western games/mmorpgs, western payment models, western foundation, western inspired worlds, they simply had classes, who punched people. Granted unarmed in Ultima had zero to do with killing people, and just gave you paralyzing strike and disarm to bolster your survivability. Not saying that was your logic for not including them either, just saying, in general

Having a monk class didn't make EQ/DND/UO a copy of Scarlet Blade, Blade and Soul, Perfect World, or any of those other games. From what I've read, falconners originated in Mongolia, hmm

is that not eastern? oh, but we adopted that in western society, so it's ok(also a class in this game, which is why I brought it up).

Kalv1441

Atama wrote: »

So in that vein it seems like “martial arts” would be a good fit, except that Intrepid seems pretty insistent on avoiding an “Asian MMO” aesthetic (no “little girl” or “maid” styles, no giant weapons, no eastern-themed gear or classes). I don’t think it would be bad to add it, especially if they made it be a brawling/pugilist style (Queensbury Rules!) but I wouldn’t expect to see it

You make some valid points. For me personally, it's less the Martial Artist feel that I would like to see in the game but more Rocky Balboa, All Might type of fighitng. I think that would lend itself to be an awesome flavor for a tank. I used Monk/Martial Artist more as a moniker because it gets the idea across since at this point in gaming/rpg/nerdom people would know I meant a guy who punches things lol

Atama

Adaon wrote: »

UO had unarmed skill(wrestling), DND has monks, EQ had monks, those are all western games/mmorpgs, western payment models, western foundation, western inspired worlds, they simply had classes, who punched people. Granted unarmed in Ultima had zero to do with killing people, and just gave you paralyzing strike and disarm to bolster your survivability. Not saying that was your logic for not including them either, just saying, in general Having a monk class didn't make EQ/DND/UO a copy of Scarlet Blade, Blade and Soul, Perfect World, or any of those other games. From what I've read, falconners originated in Mongolia, hmm is that not eastern? oh, but we adopted that in western society, so it's ok(also a class in this game, which is why I brought it up).

Note my issue was only with martial arts specifically. Not with all unarmed combat. And I’m not even saying I personally dislike it, I said the opposite. My point was that Intrepid would be the ones that are likely to avoid it, as they would avoid katana, nunchaku, three-section staff, kama, dao, jian, chu-ko-nu, and so on. I’m basing this off statements they’ve made and decisions they’ve made in art styles and weapon/class choices and names.

Who knows, maybe they’ll change their mind and turn one of the orc races into samurai or something. (I wouldn’t object to that, that sounds cool to me.) We don’t know a lot about orcs or dwarves yet (except the Nikua look like Pacific Islanders).

Yuyukoyay

Well I can't say for sure they won't have weapons that look like those mentioned above at all. Just not as their own type of weapons. It's hard to avoid using a lot of Chinese swords because a lot of them are the basis the English used for their weapons. The only differences on a lot of them are shape, width, and length differences. So they may accidentally do it.

That said the game's balance is based on rarity of equipment. So you can't flat out make classes that leave equipment slots empty because their final itemization will either be up or op. If a class was based around it then it would have a chance. There isn't though so it's probably too ridiculous to be an option.

I don't mind fist weapons being a thing in the future though. That is something closer to realistic expectations.

George_Black

Now dont be ridiculous xD
Come near me wanting to play fisticuffs, you gonna get chopped

Atama

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I don't mind fist weapons being a thing in the future though. That is something closer to realistic expectations.

Cestuses were leather gloves worn originally by Greek fighters who trained pankration, which was a fighting style characterized by boxing and wrestling. They were also later used in Roman gladiator contests. The leather wrappings sometimes had metal plates, spikes, or blades on them. They sound like something that would fit right in with Empyrean Elves.

The bagh nakh, which is Hindi for “tiger claw”, was sort of like brass knuckles with blades on them. The katar, a type of punching/pushing dagger, was another weapon from the Indian subcontinent. These are also weapons that would utilize very close combat, with punching or slashing from the hands. I could see the Vaelune maybe using these, or even the Nikua.

Then there is a simple gauntlet that is part of western heavy armor, which you might consider a weapon if struck with one, especially if it was heavy enough or studded with knobs or spikes. That’s another idea for a fist weapon.

I’m all for this stuff, as I said in old vanilla/BC WoW I used fist weapons as much as I could. I thought they were fun and cool.

OrcLuck

tarven brawls anyone? I think it might be a feature of the tavern to have a tavern brawl...keep mentioning it, its a dream everyones had about every tavern included in an MMO since ever. THE tavern brawl experience is one only really found in D&D and it needs to be worked on cleverly for it to translate well into an mmo... I pray we get one well done.

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