DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

@Jotaro

Jotaro wrote: »

Dps metter is a cancer for all the community, one dmg log is already enough for players get any ideia of dmg

Hi, welcome to the thread.

I completely disagree with this statement.

Toxic (or cancerous) players exist. They are more prevalent in some games over others, but this is not in relation to combat trtacker use.

This is a point that has come up a number of times in this thread, an in response, I list three games.

Those games are; WoW, Archeage and EQ2.

In WoW, the community is somewhat infamously toxic.
In Archeage, the community is on par with WoW.
In EQ2, the community has always been somewhat lacking in terms of toxicity.

Now, based on this, if I told you that two of these games have heavy combat tracker use, and one has very low combat tracker use, in order for your statement to hold true, the two games that have heavy combat tracker use would need to be WoW and Archeage.

However, it is in fact WoW and EQ2 that have heavy combat tracker use.

This in itself completely undermines the notion that combat trackers (or "DPS meters") cause toxic behavior.

However, I can go even one step further than that.

Of those three games above, two of them have systems built in to the game that allow players to either form or join groups in an automated fashion for around 90% of content that around 90% of players are participating in.

The two games that have this "feature" are WoW and Archeage, the two games that are famously toxic.

While correrlation does not suggest causation, it also doesn't rule it out. On the other hand, a complete lack of correlation does completely rule out causation.

So, I put it to you that it is not combat trackers that cause toxic behavior in MMO's, but rather is the inclusion of features that form groups for players in an automated manner which removes the need for players to maintain inter-personal relationships with people on their server. This lack of need to maintain relationships means there is no specific need to be kind to others in game, which combined with the inherent anonymous nature of MMO's, tends to bring out the worse side of peoples nature. People may make use of data obtained from combat trackers while exercising this toxic behavior that they are free from reprocussions of, but those combat trackers are in no way the cause of this behavior.

As such, any game that requires people to have strong inter-personal relationships will inherently have a lack of that toxic community - a situation that is 100% independent of a combat tracker existing or not.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

aoc does not belong to any jurisdiction that can dictate the application of their rules.

Sure it does.

The playerbase.

The problem with analogies is that they always fall flat if you take them to ofar (and you are the one that made the analogy against breaking laws in the first place).

Fact is, Intrepid is attempting to get population from other MMO's to Ashes. Those players will largely bring with them the basic rules that they want to play the game by. If there is a combat tracker available for Ashes, they will use it.

Players generally do not look at each game and it's rules (less than 1% of people read EULA/ToS for anything) - they assume the general rules they have been playing the genre by for the last several decades will serve them well here, as well.

I doubt you are denying any of that. Your point - as best I can see - is that you don't think this should be a factor.

The issue there is that it is Intrepid that are changing the rules in regards to that general set of rules that all players of all MMO's generally stick to. If they want to alter from that general set of rules, then taking things in to account like this are an absolute must.

I'm not arguing it is right that people do this (even though I do think it is), I am saying that it will happen, and if Intrepid want to change the rules, they need to account for the fact that it will happen.

3am

Noaani wrote: »

3am wrote: »

aoc does not belong to any jurisdiction that can dictate the application of their rules.

Sure it does.

The playerbase.

The problem with analogies is that they always fall flat if you take them to ofar (and you are the one that made the analogy against breaking laws in the first place).

Fact is, Intrepid is attempting to get population from other MMO's to Ashes. Those players will largely bring with them the basic rules that they want to play the game by. If there is a combat tracker available for Ashes, they will use it. - .

Ah yes comparing rules to rules is much too far. I can see the distance clearly now. And your right the player baseis who they are beholden to. ( To an extent, it is their product and they have every right to do what they want with it)And that player base,as it stands, has clearly stated they do not want dps meters. Which is why they are against the rules. What your asking is for intrepid to go outside their jurisdiction to appease you based on unfounded speculation. Until the community as whole shifts the other way its a nonstarter.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

Ah yes comparing rules to rules is much too far. I can see the distance clearly now.

I did say "if you take them too far".

You have the analogy, you have the counter, any further than that and you have taken it too far from the original point. If you bring in an analogy to a conversation, expect a counter and know that any further counter to that is taking the analogy too far from the roots. That is why analogies are not worth bringing in to discussions - the other party always gets the last say before it becomes pointless.

---

The playerbase has not clearly shown anything.

If you go through this thread - all of it - you will see that the majority of posters here that actually participate in the discussion are ok with the notion of a guild based combat tracker. There are only a few repeat posters here that seem to not be ok with it, and most of them refuse to discuss that specific topic - suggesting they have no real opposition to it.

If anything, the playerbase has shown that an in-client guild based combat tracker would be perfectly acceptable.

I've written probably 15% of this thread, I know what has been said here. You, clearly, haven't read enough of it.

3am

See you've said that before.

Noaani wrote: »

3am wrote: »

Ah yes comparing rules to rules is much too far. I can see the distance clearly now.

I did say "if you take them too far".

You have the analogy, you have the counter, any further than that and you have taken it too far from the original point. If you bring in an analogy to a conversation, expect a counter and know that any further counter to that is taking the analogy too far from the roots. That is why analogies are not worth bringing in to discussions - the other party always gets the last say before it becomes pointless.

---

The playerbase has not clearly shown anything.

If you go through this thread - all of it - you will see that the majority of posters here that actually participate in the discussion are ok with the notion of a guild based combat tracker. There are only a few repeat posters here that seem to not be ok with it, and most of them refuse to discuss that specific topic - suggesting they have no real opposition to it.

If anything, the playerbase has shown that an in-client guild based combat tracker would be perfectly acceptable.

I've written probably 15% of this thread, I know what has been said here. You, clearly, haven't read enough of it.

Man its almost like i've posted almost every night as well (or maybe you havnt read this entire thing, i have though) mr "i am hardcore raiders" or do i need to go back and pull the posts where you didnt even remember what YOU posted the night before. You discount anyone who doesn't agree with you in some form by qualifying your statements with "that actually participate in discussion". But to you if it isn't some form of saying yes to a metric tracker its not discussion. And recently you are probably right people are tired of it. You're a broken record and it's a battle of attrition. When people do make valid points you either strawman, ignore them, or backtrack. Im stubborn but yeah you're wearing me out too. Players dont need their hand held, if you're skilled and dedicated you'll push to the top. If you need a dps tracker to do the work for you instead of communicating and working it out yourself by all means take the easy road and then take the ban.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Fenixz

GW2 didn't have meters, and you could do the entire PvE content with whoever you wanted. Sure, you could fail, but that was the bottom line of not knowing the game synergies.
And at the end of the day it was a PvP centred game.
GW2 added meters, 99% of the builds were deemed sub optimal, PvE took over and the game became a dead rotting husk.
Instead of this lost cause, focus on making class utility somewhat balanced, cuz even if you are the biggest dps on the planet, if you end up stun locked into death, doesn't mean jack shit. PvE in this game is Open world, if you think half the people won't just roam around ganking farming spots, you haven't played MMOs outside WoW.

Noaani

cleansingtotem wrote: »

The group finder is hardly used in wow anymore. Heroic dungeons and LFR are bascially useless gear wise. Thats another scapegoat for players being toxic.

Why do you think Blizzard put heroic dungeons in the way they did?

Player behavior (and player perception of player behavior) won't change overnight, but it will change.

Noaani

Fenixz wrote: »

GW2 didn't have meters, and you could do the entire PvE content with whoever you wanted. Sure, you could fail, but that was the bottom line of not knowing the game synergies.
And at the end of the day it was a PvP centred game.
GW2 added meters, 99% of the builds were deemed sub optimal, PvE took over and the game became a dead rotting husk.
Instead of this lost cause, focus on making class utility somewhat balanced, cuz even if you are the biggest dps on the planet, if you end up stun locked into death, doesn't mean jack shit. PvE in this game is Open world, if you think half the people won't just roam around ganking farming spots, you haven't played MMOs outside WoW.

You are mis-remembering.

Combat trackers existed in GW2 from about 6 weeks after launch. I was using one about 7 weeks after up until I quit. They were not specifically allowed, but they existed.

PvE in GW2 took a more prominent role in that game because the developers specifically added more PvE content. It was a considered choice by ArenaNet to do so. At the same time as they started adding this additional PvE content, they opted to make an announcement that combat trackers were fine to use - a stance they had long realized was inevitable.

Fenixz

Noaani wrote: »

they opted to make an announcement that combat trackers were fine to use - a stance they had long realized was inevitable.

More PvP content was also added. A lot more, but historically PvE is more approachable for group content rather than PvP. It's the pit hole WoW has gotten into and can't exit for a couple of expansions now.
Looking at the majority of this forum and reddit, people seem to be obsessed by only PvE related questions and requests, and will probably end up with a soar throat.
Not having a dps meter will force people to communicate with each other more, that's a good thing.

Bla814

Having no meters would probably place more responsibility on the individual instead of the raidlead. As you mentioned its harder to figure out who exactly is messing up. The person thats making mistakes knows it though and will usually try to improve even without getting called out for it.

Communication absolutely would increase btw. You are missing a lot of information that a combat-tracker usually would provide. If you still want access to that information, you will have to get it from different players in the raid. One could argue about that being a good or bad thing, but the overall increase in communication seems fairly obvious.

Fiia

digitalwind wrote: »

Here's a suggestion for the Devs though - How about making the ability to see DPS a guild perk, or maybe a class perk similar to how clerics get to see actual HP

Oh so you mean like only members of the same guild would be able to see each others' dps? That actually sounds like a good compromise imho.

Noaani

Fiia wrote: »

digitalwind wrote: »

Here's a suggestion for the Devs though - How about making the ability to see DPS a guild perk, or maybe a class perk similar to how clerics get to see actual HP

Oh so you mean like only members of the same guild would be able to see each others' dps? That actually sounds like a good compromise imho.

The suggestion that was made earlier (over a year ago) in what is now this thread was to have a combat tracker as a guild perk.

This perk would be available at a point where the options include something that PvP players would rather have, something that casual guilds would rather have, something that RP guilds would rather have and something that crafting guilds would rather have. This would leave only non-casual PvE focused guilds that would consider a combat tracker to be the best perk for that specific guild.

This combat tracker would then only work on members of the same guild, that are in a group/raid together.

There is also the potential of making it so this tracker does not provide real time information, but rather provides players with an information dump at the end of an encounter (regardless of whether the players or the encounter came out on top).

This, if implemented in to the games client before release, will see most third party combat tracker developers simply stop developing, as the bulk of players that would use a combat tracker properly would simply use the built in one. It would not be seen as worth the effort to carry on developing third party tools.

In terms of the effect it would have in game, we would see combat trackers mostly in the hands of people that understand how to use them (and understand that they are not just "DPS meters"). Of the people that do not know how to use them, they will be unable to use them on players outside of their guild - so there is at least a massive restriction on what ever potential damage they could do with them.

Going back to the people that know how to use them, they would have easy access to them to be able to assess the combat system, identify and report in depth bugs and issues, post objective build suggestions, and also to objectively assess the effects of various group and raid builds.

As an aside to this, keeping in the personal combat log that is the current defacto is a perfectly valid suggestion, so that players can self-assess their build in an objective manner, even if they are only able to do so in relation to solo content.

I have not yet come across anyone willing to discuss the merits and detractions of this suggestion that has not ended up agreeing that it is over all likely the best way todeal with the subject of a combat tracker in an MMO.

Fiia

Noaani wrote: »

The suggestion that was made earlier (over a year ago) in what is now this thread was to have a combat tracker as a guild perk.

[...]

I have not yet come across anyone willing to discuss the merits and detractions of this suggestion that has not ended up agreeing that it is over all likely the best way todeal with the subject of a combat tracker in an MMO.

I see, thank you for clarifying and explaining.

And I also agree fully with that.

Noaani

Fiia wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The suggestion that was made earlier (over a year ago) in what is now this thread was to have a combat tracker as a guild perk.

[...]

I have not yet come across anyone willing to discuss the merits and detractions of this suggestion that has not ended up agreeing that it is over all likely the best way todeal with the subject of a combat tracker in an MMO.

I see, thank you for clarifying and explaining. And I also agree fully with that.

No worries at all.

Honestly, it was about time I reiterated what the actual suggestion that I have referred to a number of times in this thread actually is again.

To be clear though, while I am pushing this suggestion still, it is not *my* suggestion. It is a result of many players putting in suggestions and spotting issues, and then many of us working through those to come out with something at the end that is actually workable.

I'm actually still hoping people attempt to find issues with it, as I have no doubt it could use further refining. I'd also like to see people suggest things that could be offered to other types of guilds at the same time this is offered - as I do not believe I am qualified to suggest what these other types of guilds would value.

neem

No dps meter. It makes partying up unbearable, especially when you'd get in the game later than everyone else or can't play as much. It also makes people with the power to kick overly presumptuous.
When you mess up in big raids, you DO know it was you. In small group pvp (or pve, but I'll avoid that as much as possible), the rest of your party will also know it was you. So you'll do better. Getting better takes time. DPS-meters take that time away and lock you out of stuff that you then have no chance of learning anymore. Rather than numbers, you need to have team mates that forgive you and explain.

Abused

ESO has a personal only DPS meter and it doesnt make the game better.

One thing I despise in MMOs, even the ones I love, like ESO, is a complicated rotation that results in much higher DPS than a simple one. In ESO for example you can get 20% more DPS with some classes by using a 2 bar 7 skill rotation in the right repeating order to keep dots up land vulnerabilities etc. I truly hope that AoC does not take this approach to combat and that a DPS meter personal or otherwise isn't used to create an elitist segment of the game that dictates a specific style of play to be successful in end-game. I feel that kills a games community and you end up with a HC only community. In my opinion, WoW has survived because it had such a huge player-base and strong following before the elitism began. Today its really not the same game and you can't really enjoy end-game rewards in either raids or dungeons because they've segregated the masses by creating tiers that only the HC can even compete in. It leaves everyone else, even those who can run heroic raids (which are no joke) or Mythic + which require specific class combination to get 10+ and with some affixes even as high as 5+ with subpar gear and rewards. It's become a complete poop-hole of a game as the end-game is there for Esports and world first chasing guilds like Method.

I hope AoC can build more community and be more like Asheron's Call and Everquest with the new generation of graphics than like WoW or ESO.

H8edHero

I have slowly read all the posts here. I have reserved commenting because there are good points to both sides and though I favor one way, I almost feel the topic is pointless. It is clear what ever is decided will have 50% of the community less than thrilled. So my approach and suggestion would be to go with the developers gut/initial decision on this one. Trust that their vision of the game will be built around supporting this decision and the impact to the players will be minimal.

Noaani

Abused wrote: »

ESO has a personal only DPS meter and it doesnt make the game better.

One thing I despise in MMOs, even the ones I love, like ESO, is a complicated rotation that results in much higher DPS than a simple one. In ESO for example you can get 20% more DPS with some classes by using a 2 bar 7 skill rotation in the right repeating order to keep dots up land vulnerabilities etc. I truly hope that AoC does not take this approach to combat and that a DPS meter personal or otherwise isn't used to create an elitist segment of the game that dictates a specific style of play to be successful in end-game. I feel that kills a games community and you end up with a HC only community. In my opinion, WoW has survived because it had such a huge player-base and strong following before the elitism began. Today its really not the same game and you can't really enjoy end-game rewards in either raids or dungeons because they've segregated the masses by creating tiers that only the HC can even compete in. It leaves everyone else, even those who can run heroic raids (which are no joke) or Mythic + which require specific class combination to get 10+ and with some affixes even as high as 5+ with subpar gear and rewards. It's become a complete poop-hole of a game as the end-game is there for Esports and world first chasing guilds like Method.

I hope AoC can build more community and be more like Asheron's Call and Everquest with the new generation of graphics than like WoW or ESO.

Since when has 7 skills been considered complicated?

That sounds like a childrens game to me.

NelsonRebel

Noaani wrote: »

Abused wrote: »

ESO has a personal only DPS meter and it doesnt make the game better.

One thing I despise in MMOs, even the ones I love, like ESO, is a complicated rotation that results in much higher DPS than a simple one. In ESO for example you can get 20% more DPS with some classes by using a 2 bar 7 skill rotation in the right repeating order to keep dots up land vulnerabilities etc. I truly hope that AoC does not take this approach to combat and that a DPS meter personal or otherwise isn't used to create an elitist segment of the game that dictates a specific style of play to be successful in end-game. I feel that kills a games community and you end up with a HC only community. In my opinion, WoW has survived because it had such a huge player-base and strong following before the elitism began. Today its really not the same game and you can't really enjoy end-game rewards in either raids or dungeons because they've segregated the masses by creating tiers that only the HC can even compete in. It leaves everyone else, even those who can run heroic raids (which are no joke) or Mythic + which require specific class combination to get 10+ and with some affixes even as high as 5+ with subpar gear and rewards. It's become a complete poop-hole of a game as the end-game is there for Esports and world first chasing guilds like Method.

I hope AoC can build more community and be more like Asheron's Call and Everquest with the new generation of graphics than like WoW or ESO.

Since when has 7 skills been considered complicated?

That sounds like a childrens game to me.

Its 14 because of bar swapping.

The problem is that ESO is so fast paced you might as well being playing COD with magic.

Go play ESO in cyrodill and come back and tell me its easy lol

Child Item