Ressource Gathering Systems

I'm sure many of us are familiar with how resource gathering works in a lot of MMOs: You click on a thing, or you press a hotkey when you're close enough, an animation plays, and after it is played out some ore plops in your inventory. What makes this system good is that it's simple, it's easy to understand, most people have already done it one game at least, and it makes it really easy to translate bonuses into gathering. You have a +2 pickaxe, you get a +2 thing. You have a 69 in gathering, you have a 69% chance to gather a thing. You get the jist.
The main disadvantage is that those systems are boring and unengaging. They make gathering in all MMOs I played so far a terribly boring endeavour with no real excitement beyond the resource I hope to get, which isn't much considering I already know what i'll get when I press the button.

On the other end of the spectrum are gathering minigames, like pulling a fishing rod left and right to tire out the fish, doing a haphazard swingy motion to drive an axe into a tree, or the mining timing game in warframe where you have to hit a thing *just* right for the maximum payout.
They're usually not all that complicated once you've figured them out, and while I'm sure some people hate how much input it takes to do simple stuff like gathering rocks, there's also a lot of people who like those minigames enough to actually go out of their way to play them, with those resources gathered being more of a bonus than the main driving point.

So far it seems we'll get a button prompt gathering system, but I'd like to know what you guys think! Do you like simply click/button gathering mechanics? Have you played a game that had a mechanic that you thought was really well done? Ever played in an MMO just to wander around to gather stuff, not just to get the ore, but because you genuinely enjoyed the process?

I personally love how Warframe does gathering. Spearfishing, stungunning wildlife and lasering ore out of rocks all feel fun in their own right, and I often find myself wandering the planes just looking for ore to laser because getting the minigame right just feels so good.

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Beekeeper

Btw, I'm of course not asking to gather the pitchforks and make IS submit to our demands, but I think it's worth talking about how people think about gathering in general. With the economic system depending so much on gathering resources of all kinds, we'll need a lot of gatherers to feed the crafting economy.

Plus, if you know of a game with cool gathering mechanics, I'd love to hear it.

DTP Brando

I think it all depends on how rare these resources are, if they are fairly common (which I expect most of them to be) then I think a click-style gathering system wouldn't be that bad, but if they are more on the uncommon side, then a minigame would be cool to see if you can get the most out of what you are trying to harvest. Cheers!

Beekeeper

WhiteGhost wrote: »

I think it all depends on how rare these resources are, if they are fairly common (which I expect most of them to be) then I think a click-style gathering system wouldn't be that bad, but if they are more on the uncommon side, then a minigame would be cool to see if you can get the most out of what you are trying to harvest. Cheers!

Agreed! Warframe does this by giving you more of a resource the better you perform, and a chance to grab extra rare resources of you aim for extra nodules that pop up from time to time. And of course fishing games usually make big or rare fish just that much more difficult to catch than the regular small chub you'd usually get from this lake.

Valento92

I used to think overly simple crafting/gathering mechanics were boring but after playing pre-5.0 FFXIV I ended up getting really tired of how complex it was. Throughout the latest expansion they overhauled the entire crafting system simplifying things but it's still quite involved. My current opinion is that I pretty much prefer a simple system or something between FFXIV and normal MMOs. These things shouldn't be that complex and demanding tbh...

Grimfaldra

Actually, I liked the ESO system. The nodes are not very visible, you can just harvest them without tools (maybe one could add tools to harvest better/more efficient). Passive skills make nodes more visible and you can harvest better if you sink time into crafting.

Fishing with the classic - wait until it bites, then push the button - is fine with me. Or for shits and giggles, add a spearfishing option that is aim based and yields better hauls, but fails more often.

Beekeeper

Valento92 wrote: »

I used to think overly simple crafting/gathering mechanics were boring but after playing pre-5.0 FFXIV I ended up getting really tired of how complex it was. Throughout the latest expansion they overhauled the entire crafting system simplifying things but it's still quite involved. My current opinion is that I pretty much prefer a simple system or something between FFXIV and normal MMOs. These things shouldn't be that complex and demanding tbh...

I can't talk about the system before the change, but the current iteration seems extremely menu-heavy. It does seem to have depth, but the sheer amount of numbers and menus and submenus make it seem like the least immersive system I've ever seen lol.

Grimfaldra wrote: »

Actually, I liked the ESO system. The nodes are not very visible, you can just harvest them without tools (maybe one could add tools to harvest better/more efficient). Passive skills make nodes more visible and you can harvest better if you sink time into crafting.

True, the easier node detection is a neat skill, though it does still boil down to "go up and press a button" kind of harvesting.

Grimfaldra

Beekeeper wrote: »

True, the easier node detection is a neat skill, though it does still boil down to "go up and press a button" kind of harvesting.

Problem is, if you make harvesting too time intensive, it will be hard for noobs to progress past a certain point since the harvesting will be taken over by specialists who strip-harvest and sell the stuff.

I think it would be better to have harvesting be -- at the most tool-dependent -- and putting complexity into crafting.

Beekeeper

Grimfaldra wrote: »

Problem is, if you make harvesting too time intensive, it will be hard for noobs to progress past a certain point since the harvesting will be taken over by specialists who strip-harvest and sell the stuff.

I'd argue that's exactly the danger of boring and tedious gathering processes. When it's so unengaging that it feels like it's eating into your gametime, people who already don't have a lot of time are going to avoid it to instead do something fun.

For example, I can't imagine anyone in WoW to say "I learned mining and skinning because they're fun and engaging mechanics". People only take those for profit or because they don't want to shop around for their crafting resources.

Grimfaldra

Beekeeper wrote: »

I'd argue that's exactly the danger of boring and tedious gathering processes. When it's so unengaging that it feels like it's eating into your gametime, people who already don't have a lot of time are going to avoid it to instead do something fun.

In most games, harvesting is just a beginner bar you have to cross to start crafting. In most games, after a while, some people made a living of selling raws to crafters and even had fun accumulating obscene wealth while doing it.

It is not trivial to make harvesting "engaging" it is a bit like a mob grind if you need to "kill 20 rats". Even if you use different skills to kill the rat, in the end you just kill the rat.

You cannot make collection quests much more engaging. Harvesting is a perpetual collection quest.

I would love to see a concept in which it is, but my hopes are not high.

For example, I can't imagine anyone in WoW to say "I learned mining and skinning because they're fun and engaging mechanics". People only take those for profit or because they don't want to shop around for their crafting resources.

That was mostly because WoW crafting was utterly useless until you climbed really high in the skill.

And there was no shortage of people paying you to do just that. When I played WoW, I made most of my cash with leather and ore. Mostly because I can do it while I quested.

Beekeeper

Grimfaldra wrote: »

It is not trivial to make harvesting "engaging" it is a bit like a mob grind if you need to "kill 20 rats". Even if you use different skills to kill the rat, in the end you just kill the rat. You cannot make collection quests much more engaging. Harvesting is a perpetual collection quest.

As I mentioned in the first post, many games found many solutions to this. I'd imagine something as simple as a rythm game for getting ore could be plenty engaging, going 'ting, ting, ting, ting', and if you hit space at the right interval, you get a bit of bonus ore at the end. Or if you're fishing and you aim for the small fry, they don't put up much of a fight, but if you aim for that BIG shadow, you can expect a drawn out struggle as you pull the rod left and right and back and forth to reel it in. Not all gathering has to be a minigame, or the same minigame, but it would certainly spice up the more dull stuff like mining or fishing. Wow at least had a bobber to click, which was simplistic, but still engaging.

Grimfaldra wrote: »

It is not trivial to make harvesting "engaging" it is a bit like a mob grind if you need to "kill 20 rats". Even if you use different skills to kill the rat, in the end you just kill the rat. You cannot make collection quests much more engaging. Harvesting is a perpetual collection quest.

True, but since you can't be both a Gatherer and a Crafter in Ashes, it would be a shame if Gathering was nothing but dull chipping away at the market economy.

Beekeeper

I'm not sure how I missed this, but I guess gathering in AOC won't be so passive after all. It's old info, but if they haven't abandoned the idea entirely since 2017, maybe at least some of the gathering professions will be a little more active.

Grimfaldra

Beekeeper wrote: »

I'm not sure how I missed this, but I guess gathering in AOC won't be so passive after all. It's old info, but if they haven't abandoned the idea entirely since 2017, maybe at least some of the gathering professions will be a little more active.

True, but that is merely a variation on "got better tools, get better harvests" albeit one that will prevent semi-auto strip mining, since as a human behind the wheel, you can try to improve your yield. After you figure out the sequence and timing, it is the same as a one button harvest. All depends on how much more yield you get by a crit after all balancing has been done.

Balancing or making mini-games worthwhile with harvesting is one of the most difficult tasks I can think of. Trying to create an immersive way to deal with a work that is repetitive by definition is surely not easy.

I am very very curious how this will pan out and how density and respawn of resources is handled in the real game.

WeavingFlow

Hello,

There are several things i think of that could make gathering interesting.

1) minigames during the gathering action being related to the resource you are getting. I'd see a patience + quick reaction test for fishing, maybe a mouse clicker/key spamming thing combined with mouse position accuracy for ore, also combat and race versus a fleeing animal to get its meat, etc.
2) location of resources being tied to some kind of logic where knowledge and experience may help you to figure out where nodes are. Like some plants grow where these insects live and vice versa, or this ore is only in this mountain somewhere, or this wood only grows on south western beaches, or this gem needs to empty a vein and it's the last pop from it, etc.
3) also on the node location topic, maybe add secret places to find the loot, where some kind of skill is required (like usual skills from the rogue class like detecting secret doors, or some other kind of unlockable skills being more generic) or other places being guarded by mobs/bosses you have to defeat to access the goods, or simply hard places to figure out due to the vegetation or a narrow underground passage with semi-random spawn, or a moutain to climb to get that rare mountain flower etc.
4) also in AoC you got to work on your tools regularly, and some are better than others. That's a good point already. Maybe add specific rare tools for some kind of rare materials that are made for that sole purpose.
5) rare drops, with gameplay possibilities to increase the drop rate one way or the other. I think it's kind of already in the works. Maybe add specific drop rate buffs for specific rare resources.
6) step-by-step like resource gathering, requiring you perform several actions before aquiring it. For example partially cutting a tree, then setting a campfire under it, to heat it up and make something come out from it : insect, juice etc.

Grimfaldra

WeavingFlow wrote: »

Hello,

There are several things i think of that could make gathering interesting.

1) minigames during the gathering action being related to the resource you are getting. I'd see a patience + quick reaction test for fishing, maybe a mouse clicker/key spamming thing combined with mouse position accuracy for ore, also combat and race versus a fleeing animal to get its meat, etc.

A problem with quick reaction is that you have to compensate for network performance and stuff. Also not everyone is a twitch gamer, so it has to be toned down. Will it still be cool if it is balanced or toned down enough?

2) location of resources being tied to some kind of logic where knowledge and experience may help you to figure out where nodes are. Like some plants grow where these insects live and vice versa, or this ore is only in this mountain somwewhere, or this wood only grows on south western beaches, or this gem needs to empty a vein and it's the last pop from it, etc.

Kinda like the ESO system. Yes, add random resource placement and you gain a sense of achievement finding and harvesting stuff.

3) also on the node location topic, maybe add secret places to find the loot, where some kind of skill is required (like usual skills from the rogue class like detecting secret doors, or some other kind of unlockable skills being more generic) or other places being guarded by mobs/bosses you have to defeat to access the goods, or simply hard places to figure out due to the vegetation or a narrow underground passage with semi-random spawn, etc.

That is a slippery slope. If you can specialize in crafting, locations protected by mobs (especially with rare harvests) will cause a specialized crafter to have to recruit help. While I am all for interaction between players (loved the original EQ2 crafting) that can sour the experience. Considering the penalties for dying (as per the wiki), if I /quickly/ need to make something and a node is guarded, I risk it and get killed...well. Some people can deal with that, some will cry bloody murder.

One has to be very careful in designing obstacles for something as basic as harvesting.

6) step-by-step like resource gathering, requiring you perform several actions before aquiring it. For example partially cutting a tree, then setting a campfire under it, to heat it up and make something come out from it : insect, juice etc.

That is actually a good idea to increase the harvesting complexity, also having to also decide what resource something will create. Do I suck the sap from a tree or do I cut it off to get wood.

Tragnar

I would want the gathering system to avoid focusing on just having the fastest mount available and speeding through the map

winner909098

I think it should slightly increase the challenge by level, so that you progress with the difficulty.

ThePeacekeeper

If i'm not mistaken I saw in one of the developer update videos that there will not be any minigames for gathering and that they want to keep it simple.

Zhab

ThePeacekeeper wrote: »

If i'm not mistaken I saw in one of the developer update videos that there will not be any minigames for gathering and that they want to keep it simple.

Be careful what conclusions you make based on what you saw in pre-alpha footage. They keep saying nothing you see is final and everything is subject to change. This might be place holder. The devs being more interested on what happens to resources after you gathered them. PVP for them, caravan them around. NPC interaction in node leading into procession and crafting. Early forms of economy that leads too. Specifically how you harvest something is something they can afford to nail down much later on and still get to work on and test a whole bunch of other system.

Frosty_Tips

I'm neutral on the topic but all for open discussion so happy to see the thread. My only gathering is randomly picking herbs as i'm running around the world PvPing.

The devs in the past Q&As were asked if they will make gathering a mini game and/or complex and, just so people know what the devs are thinking is that they replied with "well gathering is meant to be easy, we know alot of people who enjoy being gatherers are also the types who like that they can do it with only half their attention while they also watch netflix and read discord.

But at the same time like Grimfaldra pasted above, did atleast create a small skill element to it.

Fishing however they are going full on with. So if you like fishing then Ashes is the game for you.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Fishing
Fishing is part of the gathering artisan class.
There won't be AFK fishing.
There may be fishing style tournaments.
There may be different types of fishing:
Smaller game fishing that does not require much thought.
Deep-sea fishing will have specific player mini-game requirements and equipment (such as expensive lures).
Coastal/lake fishing will be less interactive than deep-sea fishing.
Fishing will be lucrative if done well.
Treasures may be obtained through fishing.
Higher level fishing poles are unlocked by progression in the Fishing profession. These enable gathering of higher level fish.
Players can obtain fishing pole cosmetics through achievement or purchase.
Rod / Reel / Bobbers
There may be fishing boats
There may be fishing nets

"fishing we have some fun designs that we want to play with and will likely include the community during alphas to play with those designs and and it's possible that we may you know even take into consideration a popularity among the community of which designs they like best. Fishing's very a fun pastime that's become relevant in MMOs over the past several years and I think that we have some interesting ideas to implement with that, that players will get to try out in alpha".– Steven Sharif

ThePeacekeeper

Zhab wrote: »

ThePeacekeeper wrote: »

If i'm not mistaken I saw in one of the developer update videos that there will not be any minigames for gathering and that they want to keep it simple.

Be careful what conclusions you make based on what you saw in pre-alpha footage. They keep saying nothing you see is final and everything is subject to change. This might be place holder. The devs being more interested on what happens to resources after you gathered them. PVP for them, caravan them around. NPC interaction in node leading into procession and crafting. Early forms of economy that leads too. Specifically how you harvest something is something they can afford to nail down much later on and still get to work on and test a whole bunch of other system.

True just saying what i believe was mentioned. No conclusion was made

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