VIDEO How Ashes of Creation Family Summon Fast Travel will be Exploited by Top Guilds

I made a video on how Guilds will very likely exploit this feature:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEeOmgwWSDo&feature=youtu.be

In a nutshell, even if you limit how many times a character can fast travel per day, top guilds will still require, and it will be meta for endgame, for you to have 8 accounts. So you will have 8 strong characters, and even if cooldown was 1 week, one of your characters can teleport to any of 7 locations you want every day.

In my experience every time you try to make a catch-up mechanic for casuals, the hardcore utilize the system far more prolifically and leave behind casuals even more than if the system didn't exist. XP pots, when they were proposed, the devs pitched them as so expensive only rich business execs would use them; we all know where that went.

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Comments

GrimmLiberty

Didn't watch this video. I have seen at least half a dozen so far. They all make the same fallacious arguments.

At least one is incorrect, because you cannot be summoned with inventory items. Then around half the arguments are actually the same at the base, i.e. not "additional" arguments. And those are countered by the families being being able to pop in and attack people argument. Imagination is a wondrous beast that fear makes look larger.

I DO however, think that it should be limited to once daily, summoner or summoned. You make your choice once a day and live with it.

Tragnar

Still this will create a summoning meta where people will be selling their 1 per day summons. I think that this is overall a negative thing for the game. Otherwise prepare for public channel spam "WTS summon to /*place*/ for x gold"

Kaelang

The one thing I do like is on the wiki page it's indicated that Summoning will be tested during Alpha. I really hope this means testing the functionality as a whole and not whether or not it is working as intended.

bigepeen

There's no way that players won't find a way to exploit this while still making it convenient and useful for casuals. Just let friends have to coordinate with each other to meet up. Not having it in the game encourages socialization about logistics, and keeps ingame distance relevant.

Atiqa

Tragnar wrote: »

Still this will create a summoning meta where people will be selling their 1 per day summons. I think that this is overall a negative thing for the game. Otherwise prepare for public channel spam "WTS summon to /*place*/ for x gold"

Think you're misunderstanding how this will work (or rather how it is said to work right now).

You can only summon someone in your family, which is 7 other players. You can only be in one family at a time, and there's a cooldown in the matter of days if you want to change family.

So you can't sell summons in any meaningful way.

Tyrantor

I really don't understand why everyone is so concerned about people having multiple accounts? If guilds are going to require their members to spend $1,500/yr in sub services for 1 game good for the developers IMO and anyone lacking the mental fortitude to say no to any guild requiring that is just a sheep that likely won't contribute any meaningfulness to PVP so I welcome it.

HiddenDaggerInn

NatureHacker wrote: »

I made a video on how Guilds will very likely exploit this feature:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEeOmgwWSDo&feature=youtu.be

In a nutshell, even if you limit how many times a character can fast travel per day, top guilds will still require, and it will be meta for endgame, for you to have 8 accounts. So you will have 8 strong characters, and even if cooldown was 1 week, one of your characters can teleport to any of 7 locations you want every day.

In my experience every time you try to make a catch-up mechanic for casuals, the hardcore utilize the system far more prolifically and leave behind casuals even more than if the system didn't exist. XP pots, when they were proposed, the devs pitched them as so expensive only rich business execs would use them; we all know where that went.

That will be a very small guild that requires 8 account's Good luck finding many members willing to do that!

Sussurro

I'd rather have the teleports than not. Whatever caveats to make that happen whether it be limiting the number of teleports for a family and having a weekly reset, and/or prohibiting the teleports beyond a certain level - "This creature is too powerful to summon." et cetera; I want an accessible way for new players to be guided by us. I would disregard every QoL feature if I could only pick this one.

Decades of MMO experience have informed me that a motivated guild, a motivated player, will exploit any advantage. There was a guild in WoW that converted to the opposing faction and switched their entire raid roster over to a particular race simply because it had a skill that allowed them to avoid a boss mechanic - this is an example from recent memory. I absolutely endorse keeping these wackos in check when considering how a feature may be implemented, but I understand they'll inevitably eke out an advantage somehow.

Hellfar

This is a bit extreme. We're talking about the 1% of the 1% here that would utilize 8 accounts. I really don't see the impact being large here, unless the Alpha players can prove this is exploitable from an economic and guild/node war perspective and provide evidence this will destabilize a server. It's easy to theorycraft this but evidence will tell the story.

winner909098

Ruinred wrote: »

WMC51 wrote: »

Okay I've played a lot of MMOS of evers sub or subscription type.

Honestly it sounds pretty silly to me saying too guilds will require people to have 8 accounts.

There are people who will do it and maybe small groups that will but I don't soo it being done on that type of scale.

It won't make enough of a difference in the game to matter much and I'd trade it just to not have to wait on my wife to travel to where I am once she gets on if I'm not running both already that is.

They wouldn't need 8 accounts just 8 characters on an account. Park alts in locations that are farmable. They have all guild members be family of mixing and matching of accounts so that everyone is able to get to some one on the guild and eventually you can teleport everyone to the requested area instantly.

farmable locations run out

Xenotor

1. You can not fast travel while you have stuff in your inventory.
2. You can not fast travel while in combat
3. you can not fast travel while beeing part of an event
(Guild Wars , Node wars, Sieges.)
So if your guild sets up a siege declaration, you can no longer Fast travel.
4. the Fast travel function will most likely have a high cooldown of 10 - 20 hours on the account hat was moved.
The argument that you get the cooldown on the summoner is wrong. You get it on the Account that was summoned. The Devs would have to be stupid to do it the other way around.
So congrats you just stranded your entire guild in a some part of the world and no one is home to defend it.
Sure you could have 8 Accounts with Max level characters but that would take ages and you still would have to travel on foot with each character to your home to bring the loot back.

So your guild decided to have everyone teleport to a world boss.
You kill it.
Now you have to walk back.
You can not fast travel with the boss loot.
If you teleport to the other continent for a boss then congrats you are 5 hours away from your homebase.
You might just loose your loot to PVP during that travel.

But whats even more importand: You cant do a fast group up with your mates.
My guild is going to have 8 people in a dedicated leveling and dungen group and the same 8 people will be in a family.
When guy 1 finds a cool dungen or ressource spot, then the other 7 will fast travel to him.

You cant do that. You will lock yourself out for the ability to do 1 way travel over the world.

The benefits of doing that are a lot smaller compared to have 8 acitve people in the same familiy to maximize group efficiency.

Note that its not certain that Bosses or POIs will allways spawn in the same location.
They plan to have raw ressource spawn randomly in the world so they might just do that for World bosses.

Also I am not sure what MMO you played were people of top guilds payed 100$ a month.
I was part of multiple top guilds in the past 20 years and never had the issue.
I also never heard of anyone having that requirement.

If some guild decides to do that. Let them. The benefit is a lot smaller then their gain.

End note:
I like that you try to find a way to grief the system. Keep doing that and the devs have enough time to fix the exploits.

Linstead

WMC51 wrote: »

Okay I've played a lot of MMOS of evers sub or subscription type.

Honestly it sounds pretty silly to me saying too guilds will require people to have 8 accounts.

There are people who will do it and maybe small groups that will but I don't soo it being done on that type of scale.

It won't make enough of a difference in the game to matter much and I'd trade it just to not have to wait on my wife to travel to where I am once she gets on if I'm not running both already that is.

It's not that silly. Look at world first guilds in WoW for instance. Almost every guild has people who have 8-10 characters each fully kitted out and ready to raid on day 1 so that when the new raid comes out they can run it over and over and over again and decide which character has the best gear spread to bring into Mythic difficulty the next week or do "split raiding" which is some convoluted system where alts carry mains and funnel the gear to mains (lets say 3 mains and 17 alts per raid) so that when the week is over the main raiding team has the equivalent of 7 raid weeks worth of gear.

And considering how Method got into drama in the last raiding tier of spending over 10,000 dollars to buy Gold (and still only got 2nd place lol) it wouldn't be so far fetched for top end guild like that to require people to have separate accounts, especially if they are sponsoring and paying the players for it.

Leiloni

bigepeen wrote: »

There's no way that players won't find a way to exploit this while still making it convenient and useful for casuals. Just let friends have to coordinate with each other to meet up. Not having it in the game encourages socialization about logistics, and keeps ingame distance relevant.

It's not about socialization, it's about allowing people with little playtime the ability to log in and get right into the action with their friends instead of wasting huge chunks of their limited time traveling around the world.

Linstead wrote: »

It's not that silly. Look at world first guilds in WoW for instance. Almost every guild has people who have 8-10 characters each fully kitted out and ready to raid on day 1 so that when the new raid comes out they can run it over and over and over again and decide which character has the best gear spread to bring into Mythic difficulty the next week or do "split raiding" which is some convoluted system where alts carry mains and funnel the gear to mains (lets say 3 mains and 17 alts per raid) so that when the week is over the main raiding team has the equivalent of 7 raid weeks worth of gear.

And considering how Method got into drama in the last raiding tier of spending over 10,000 dollars to buy Gold (and still only got 2nd place lol) it wouldn't be so far fetched for top end guild like that to require people to have separate accounts, especially if they are sponsoring and paying the players for it.

Are you seriously comparing people who literally get paid to play WoW all day and whose livelihoods depend on it to the average MMORPG gamer who just wants a game like AoC to have fun in their free time?

Linstead

Leiloni wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

There's no way that players won't find a way to exploit this while still making it convenient and useful for casuals. Just let friends have to coordinate with each other to meet up. Not having it in the game encourages socialization about logistics, and keeps ingame distance relevant.

It's not about socialization, it's about allowing people with little playtime the ability to log in and get right into the action with their friends instead of wasting huge chunks of their limited time traveling around the world.

Linstead wrote: »

It's not that silly. Look at world first guilds in WoW for instance. Almost every guild has people who have 8-10 characters each fully kitted out and ready to raid on day 1 so that when the new raid comes out they can run it over and over and over again and decide which character has the best gear spread to bring into Mythic difficulty the next week or do "split raiding" which is some convoluted system where alts carry mains and funnel the gear to mains (lets say 3 mains and 17 alts per raid) so that when the week is over the main raiding team has the equivalent of 7 raid weeks worth of gear.

And considering how Method got into drama in the last raiding tier of spending over 10,000 dollars to buy Gold (and still only got 2nd place lol) it wouldn't be so far fetched for top end guild like that to require people to have separate accounts, especially if they are sponsoring and paying the players for it.

Are you seriously comparing people who literally get paid to play WoW all day and whose livelihoods depend on it to the average MMORPG gamer who just wants a game like AoC to have fun in their free time?

No, we are talking about top end raiding guilds here. Are you really this dense? Do you think people like this won't exist in Ashes?

Linstead

Also let it be known that I in no way encourage IS to change their game because 1% of players who will end up abusing it (because let's face it, only people in like the top 10 or 20 guilds in the entire world would ever do something this drastic).

Blizzard does this and all it does is end up hurting people who never abused systems to begin with. Like now, we have no master loot, because top end guilds were abusing it with split raiding. We are now forced with personal loot, that is untradeable to others if the gear's level is higher than your current gear's level (even if the piece is absolutely garbage for you) and the entire game suffers because Blizzard wanted to punish the 1% of world first raiders.

Balancing the game around these people is not good. I'd rather not have a family system to begin with, but if they decide to launch with it and then break it halfway through the game's life cycle because it's being abused then that just hurts the casual player who enjoys using it and just likes leveling with their friends.

HiddenDaggerInn

Linstead wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

There's no way that players won't find a way to exploit this while still making it convenient and useful for casuals. Just let friends have to coordinate with each other to meet up. Not having it in the game encourages socialization about logistics, and keeps ingame distance relevant.

It's not about socialization, it's about allowing people with little playtime the ability to log in and get right into the action with their friends instead of wasting huge chunks of their limited time traveling around the world.

Linstead wrote: »

It's not that silly. Look at world first guilds in WoW for instance. Almost every guild has people who have 8-10 characters each fully kitted out and ready to raid on day 1 so that when the new raid comes out they can run it over and over and over again and decide which character has the best gear spread to bring into Mythic difficulty the next week or do "split raiding" which is some convoluted system where alts carry mains and funnel the gear to mains (lets say 3 mains and 17 alts per raid) so that when the week is over the main raiding team has the equivalent of 7 raid weeks worth of gear.

And considering how Method got into drama in the last raiding tier of spending over 10,000 dollars to buy Gold (and still only got 2nd place lol) it wouldn't be so far fetched for top end guild like that to require people to have separate accounts, especially if they are sponsoring and paying the players for it.

Are you seriously comparing people who literally get paid to play WoW all day and whose livelihoods depend on it to the average MMORPG gamer who just wants a game like AoC to have fun in their free time?

No, we are talking about top end raiding guilds here. Are you really this dense? Do you think people like this won't exist in Ashes?

now 8 accounts I think would hopfully be breaking a multibox (eventual rule) If not this will be the top 1% of try hards and right now I think they have more pressing issues then people running 8 accounts to teleport. In the future if it's against some sort on TOS then hopefully they will get ratted out to a active GM, case solved and lot's of time and money wasted for the try hards.

I consider myself a hardcore gamer, but that's not even enjoyable to go th that extent.

Bakrem

Well, the debate about exploiting the family summoning seems to be kind of over.
However I'd like to add my 2 cents.

1. They'll just add a cooldown to the character that is summoned - problem solved.

2. If ppl are willing to throw tremendous amounts of cash towards Inteprid to gain a fractional advantage - let them. Others will benefit because Inteprid will have more income^^. I srsly don't care. Such minor advantages are not "pay to win", if you add said cooldowns.

NatureHacker

Sussurro wrote: »

I'd rather have the teleports than not. Whatever caveats to make that happen whether it be limiting the number of teleports for a family and having a weekly reset, and/or prohibiting the teleports beyond a certain level - "This creature is too powerful to summon." et cetera; I want an accessible way for new players to be guided by us. I would disregard every QoL feature if I could only pick this one.

Decades of MMO experience have informed me that a motivated guild, a motivated player, will exploit any advantage. There was a guild in WoW that converted to the opposing faction and switched their entire raid roster over to a particular race simply because it had a skill that allowed them to avoid a boss mechanic - this is an example from recent memory. I absolutely endorse keeping these wackos in check when considering how a feature may be implemented, but I understand they'll inevitably eke out an advantage somehow.

Ya I think the only way at this point for the feature to be workable is to say you cannot be summoned after you reach level 10 or something like that.

NatureHacker

Bakrem wrote: »

Well, the debate about exploiting the family summoning seems to be kind of over.
However I'd like to add my 2 cents.

1. They'll just add a cooldown to the character that is summoned - problem solved.

2. If ppl are willing to throw tremendous amounts of cash towards Inteprid to gain a fractional advantage - let them. Others will benefit because Inteprid will have more income^^. I srsly don't care. Such minor advantages are not "pay to win", if you add said cooldowns.

That is fine but the guilds will be dominating the game and any non-instanced, contested, content will be taken by them and you will either have to buy the items from them or deal with crappy gear. That is just how this works.

Again like others have said here, top tier guilds (usually one on each server at least) have 8-10 max alts and so there could be 8 strings so you could have each of your alts fast travel once each (adds up to 8-10 times) during a cooldown cycle.

BaSkA_9x2

vhbenin wrote: »

any way to keep this feature without any issues?

Only characters up to level 30 can summon or be summoned, hopefully a level 50 can one shot level 30 characters.

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