Combat and mechanics. Active vs passive combat

*EDIT added an ESO vid showcasing action combat that shows the action pace that I'm describing below*

So we all know that AoC will be a mix of Tab Targeting and active combat.

We won't be able to fully flesh and test those details until beta or later on in testing phase. However we do have some general knowledge on the design philosophy of Steven from this Q&A

https://youtu.be/Rjq0_rmgxPM

At the 54:01 mark the question comes up about active shield blocking and further goes into asking about active dodge rolling as well.

From what I understood (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it seems the games combat design is leaning more to static attack and defense where you just eat the damage instead of having a bit more active control with timed reactionary based combat. And only certain classes and skills will give you the ability to dodge or block.

I think this is taking away from a possible important aspect of combat, namely being the control and reaction based portion of implementing hybrid active/tab target combat.

Active block and dodge roll adds a level of gameplay that rewards every kind of player for paying attention in pvp and pve alike and also giving both melee and range, magic and warrior/rogue types of players using any type of weapon the capability of being a little bit more versatile and giving them more of an option rather than just being out of a resource to use a skill or waiting on a cooldown which doesnt feel engaging in most cases.

ESO in my opinion blended this pretty well with the exception of having block, roll dodge all cost one resource being stamina, which tilted the favor of the games pvp combat being imbalanced in favor of warrior stamina type characters since the mechanics also used exclusively stamina to break out of (break free) from Crowd Control abilities and stuns.

However I feel in AoC this could be a unique opportunity to blend the aspect perfectly by instead having block/roll dodge/CC breaks be tied instead to a universal global CD , say for example 3-6 seconds, after each sequential activation of a block/roll dodge/break free that would be further augmented by AoC's original design philosophy of using a specific skill to do so which would allow a bit more dynamic choice selection in your main class and sub archtype options as well as your prefered weapon types.

I feel this would greatly the enhance the combat immersion of being in control of our characters while adding an element of tactical skill gameplay in both pvp and pve with proper testing and design to ensure it doesn't favor one aspect of the games archtypes or styles too much.

I am welcome to any suggestions or reasons why anyone would think this would be a good or bad idea to implement in AoC.

The only reason I bring this up is because WoW's slow combat with overly long CDs is what pushed me to ESO and I enjoyed ESO's combat very much in this regard to being any class with a large degree of control.

Thanks for reading!

***Edit included eso vid for representation***

https://youtu.be/QtlvI2HC0zk

Here is an elder scrolls online video that gives you some physical representation of what I'm talking about. You can see how me and my opponents engage in almost a dance of reaction, timing, damage and smart CC timing with block and dodge rolling almost seamlessly in our attacks and defense in conjuction with active abilities

(Ignore the performance parts since that is not the focus but yes eso's perfomance is at its lowest)

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FuryBladeborne

I really hope that as they continue testing, they move more into making more active blocking and other active defenses rather than less.

If they want to also incorporate a system such as activating an ability increases automatic defense for people that want less of an action (or reactionary) based combat system, then that would be fine. However, ensuring that players can actively mitigate damage increases player engagement and the reward for skill based game play. I also think that such options would keep many players for longer.

SamuraiWindu

Half of the archetypes have some of their abilities revealed. Clerics have the Soul Paralysis ability (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Soul_paralysis), which holds a target in place. Mages have After Image (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/After_image), which momentarily makes you invulnerable. Rangers have Sprint (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Sprint), which allows you to dodge out of the way. Tanks have Absorb Bubble (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Absorb_bubble), which absorbs damage then deals that damage to nearby targets. These classes also have other abilities that can be used defensively, but these abilities seem to be the most obviously defensive abilities of each class. I think they have you covered.

NelsonRebel

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

I really hope that as they continue testing, they move more into making more active blocking and other active defenses rather than less.

If they want to also incorporate a system such as activating an ability increases automatic defense for people that want less of an action (or reactionary) based combat system, then that would be fine. However, ensuring that players can actively mitigate damage increases player engagement and the reward for skill based game play. I also think that such options would keep many players for longer.

This was my concern as well. Engaging combat is far more rewarding and interesting than passive combat that you dont really see or do.

I could probably get behind a system that passively dodged or mitigated damage universally that all classes could access. But I truly feel it would be far less immersive and fun to tie it to specific sets or skills. Since you would then be further limited by that choice if you wanted to use that type of combat but couldnt with your main class or archtype.

And yes actively rewarding players for smart and well timed gameplay is extremely good for players. It keeps us engaged to play get better and to keep going, whereas the passive way to eat the damage and how you win feels more akin to just accepting an ass kicking and hope you get the last "turn" in the attack phases.

Part of ESO's huge success on console was how engaging the active combat is and console players eat that up especially with a lore driven world with lots of people to interact with.

Selo

Im just worried "requirements" will be scewed one way or another.
Action combat is more prone to exploiting which can lead to more dps.
Seeing people saying "looking for more, action combat specced only" would be really bad.

NelsonRebel

SamuraiWindu wrote: »

Half of the archetypes have some of their abilities revealed. Clerics have the Soul Paralysis ability (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Soul_paralysis), which holds a target in place. Mages have After Image (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/After_image), which momentarily makes you invulnerable. Rangers have Sprint (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Sprint), which allows you to dodge out of the way. Tanks have Absorb Bubble (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Absorb_bubble), which absorbs damage then deals that damage to nearby targets. These classes also have other abilities that can be used defensively, but these abilities seem to be the most obviously defensive abilities of each class. I think they have you covered.

I can understand those abilities but those seem more like standard buff/debuff skills that are present in any mmo with regularly casted abilities.

What means more to me is what can I actively do universally on any class/archtype that enhances my gameplay and rewards me for paying attention while also introducing a level of skillful timing and immersive realism of engaging players or bosses in the world.

Hence why I think active blocking and dodging with a global cooldown universally would not only be healthy, but far more engaging for hybrid tab/active combat.

NelsonRebel

Selo wrote: »

Im just worried "requirements" will be scewed one way or another.
Action combat is more prone to exploiting which can lead to more dps.
Seeing people saying "looking for more, action combat specced only" would be really bad.

Im not sure how requirements would incorporate into it.

The problems with ESO's iteration like I mentioned in my post is that it blatantly favored one resource type with block/roll dodge/break free.

My suggestion removes that bias and makes it a timing and skillful selection. And the cooldown on it prevents abuse.

Unless you see it differently in other games?

NelsonRebel

Maybe @StevenSharif @Steven Sharif could take a look and see if this has any merit.

In the event AoC becomes what I believe it will (a massive success) It would only make it better by being meaningful and engaging with its combat.

Perhaps even different platform releases if the games success proves high in demand

Sussurro

In the long gameplay video they did Sharif was dodging with what seemed like a cooldown dependency rather than a resource dependency on his mage. He also seems to have passive mitigation as well because one of the scrolling combat text pop ups said EVADE when a bear swiped at him.

I presume we'll have the choice of active skills to avoid/mitigate damage and passive, more traditional, stats that allow us to avoid/mitigate damage. As someone who enjoys playing tank, I would love to try such a blend of active and passive.

The idea of possibly having both an active block and dodge and a passive block and dodge intrigues me.

NelsonRebel

Sussurro wrote: »

In the long gameplay video they did Sharif was dodging with what seemed like a cooldown dependency rather than a resource dependency on his mage. He also seems to have passive mitigation as well because one of the scrolling combat text pop ups said EVADE when a bear swiped at him.

I presume we'll have the choice of active skills to avoid/mitigate damage and passive, more traditional, stats that allow us to avoid/mitigate damage. As someone who enjoys playing tank, I would love to try such a blend of active and passive.

The idea of possibly having both an active block and dodge and a passive block and dodge intrigues me.

Good catch I missed that part during the video.

Yeah like I said I dont think it would be bad to have dodge/block tied to a passive uptime skill lasting for x amount of seconds. But I feel it would be less engaging than having the option to do active block/roll dodge on all characters in some form.

It feels really good in eso, but like I mentioned it really favored one part of the game with stamina since in order to engage in those things that became crucial, since CC break to not die is also tied to stamina.

But removing a resource tied to it and giving it a CD to not create twitchy gameplay gives the dynamic a tactical level to me without creating a bias for anything.

Just figured I'd throw it out there since its arguably eso's greatest strength in combat design.

HowlingWolf80

NelsonRebel wrote: »

Sussurro wrote: »

In the long gameplay video they did Sharif was dodging with what seemed like a cooldown dependency rather than a resource dependency on his mage. He also seems to have passive mitigation as well because one of the scrolling combat text pop ups said EVADE when a bear swiped at him.

I presume we'll have the choice of active skills to avoid/mitigate damage and passive, more traditional, stats that allow us to avoid/mitigate damage. As someone who enjoys playing tank, I would love to try such a blend of active and passive.

The idea of possibly having both an active block and dodge and a passive block and dodge intrigues me.

Good catch I missed that part during the video.

Yeah like I said I dont think it would be bad to have dodge/block tied to a passive uptime skill lasting for x amount of seconds. But I feel it would be less engaging than having the option to do active block/roll dodge on all characters in some form.

It feels really good in eso, but like I mentioned it really favored one part of the game with stamina since in order to engage in those things that became crucial, since CC break to not die is also tied to stamina.

But removing a resource tied to it and giving it a CD to not create twitchy gameplay gives the dynamic a tactical level to me without creating a bias for anything.

Just figured I'd throw it out there since its arguably eso's greatest strength in combat design.

I'm with you. I feel exactly the same about ESO combat flaws. Favors stamina builds and is kind of spazzy and twitchy.

NelsonRebel

HowlingWolf80 wrote: »

NelsonRebel wrote: »

Sussurro wrote: »

In the long gameplay video they did Sharif was dodging with what seemed like a cooldown dependency rather than a resource dependency on his mage. He also seems to have passive mitigation as well because one of the scrolling combat text pop ups said EVADE when a bear swiped at him.

I presume we'll have the choice of active skills to avoid/mitigate damage and passive, more traditional, stats that allow us to avoid/mitigate damage. As someone who enjoys playing tank, I would love to try such a blend of active and passive.

The idea of possibly having both an active block and dodge and a passive block and dodge intrigues me.

Good catch I missed that part during the video.

Yeah like I said I dont think it would be bad to have dodge/block tied to a passive uptime skill lasting for x amount of seconds. But I feel it would be less engaging than having the option to do active block/roll dodge on all characters in some form.

It feels really good in eso, but like I mentioned it really favored one part of the game with stamina since in order to engage in those things that became crucial, since CC break to not die is also tied to stamina.

But removing a resource tied to it and giving it a CD to not create twitchy gameplay gives the dynamic a tactical level to me without creating a bias for anything.

Just figured I'd throw it out there since its arguably eso's greatest strength in combat design.

I'm with you. I feel exactly the same about ESO combat flaws. Favors stamina builds and is kind of spazzy and twitchy.

Yup my sentiments exactly. Its not a bad concept, though it was just clearly biased in how they implemented it. But if you wanted to play pvp you basically had to invest in stamina no matter what type of character you were. Not equal or right.

I think getting rid of a resource tied to it (active dodge and block and cc break) and making it a conscious decision with CD will work with how AoC is being built with a hybrid system and having abilities augment/compliment this. Same with CC's nothing is more annoying than being perma cc'd and just watching your character die. CC break should be on the same CD

NelsonRebel

@Acarith you might appreciate what I was talking about here based on your thread

George_Black

Eso combat is crap.
Many other mmorpg games have action based combat a thousand times better than ESOs.

Here is ESO in a nutshell:
a)
1.Defense rotation: walk around a tree, set up your buffs and heals
2.Use gap closer on a lone target, execute and go back to defence rotation.

b) Forget all about animations because of how poorly the global cooldown is designed. Enjoy glitch looking movements due to AC. Worst AC I have ever encountered in any game.

c) In eso there is no action/reaction. Just predetermined patterns, against any type of enemy. There are no tanks, fighters, nukers. It's all burst/turtle, for all classes.

d) Pros and cons of taking an action? No cons, just pros.
In other games if you are in the middle of performing an attack on an enemy, but you see (react) the enemy swing a deadly blow at you, you decide to cancel your attack and block, saving your HP.
In ESO? No worries. Your attack will register it's dmg while you blocked.

Again: active combat is great. Eso doesnt have active combat. Just routine combat.

Not to mention the crownstacking zergs.
Not to mention how every fighter class feels the same due to meta.
Not to mention dmg proc armors (100% passive combat)
Not to mention the cluster of addons telling players which button to press next.

NelsonRebel

George Black wrote: »

Eso combat is crap.
Many other mmorpg games have action based combat a thousand times better than ESOs.

Here is ESO in a nutshell:
a)
1.Defense rotation: walk around a tree, set up your buffs and heals
2.Use gap closer on a lone target, execute and go back to defence rotation.

b) Forget all about animations because of how poorly the global cooldown is designed. Enjoy glitch looking movements due to AC. Worst AC I have ever encountered in any game.

c) In eso there is no action/reaction. Just predetermined patterns, against any type of enemy. There are no tanks, fighters, nukers. It's all burst/turtle, for all classes.

d) Pros and cons of taking an action? No cons, just pros.
In other games if you are in the middle of performing an attack on an enemy, but you see (react) the enemy swing a deadly blow at you, you decide to cancel your attack and block, saving your HP.
In ESO? No worries. Your attack will register it's dmg while you blocked.

Again: active combat is great. Eso doesnt have active combat. Just routine combat.

Not to mention the crownstacking zergs.
Not to mention how every fighter class feels the same due to meta.
Not to mention dmg proc armors (100% passive combat)

You're getting into the knitty gritty of the eso combat of annoying gameplay.

But its impossible to say there is no reactive and proactive gameplay with setting up combos and cc's. Is it repetitive? Well sure any combat feels repetitive when the devs have butchered class identities and homogenized the classes so thoroughly. I mean the magic classes actually used to be able to viably use physical weapons in the past. Now its one of 2 staves lol..

Anyway..This thread was more of me talking about the active dodge roll and block aspects that I feel ESO did extremely well ensuring all classes had a feel of control and movement. Not that eso's was entirely good either since it was all stamina based hence my suggestions in the post.

But you focused a bit much on eso here rather than what the topic focused for. But yes I did enjoy the combat system in eso, its the only reason I played as long as I did. Until recently of course

I dont agree with animation cancelling either, but they are too far past to fix it since they built their whole game around the design at this point.

Jexz

There was a video where sherif had said they tried active block but due to latency they won't be going ahead with it.

I Like active combat such as blocking and dodges. But what many people fail to realize is the lag compensation required to do such things. This is often seen in complaints about desync. There will always be a massive advantage to players with low ping. Lag compensation is designed to normalize that. If they avoid I frames blocks dodges and grabs the player won't see this desync as much. BDO is a prime example of lag compensation and desync. Also how it can be exploited through frame manipulation. BDO actually does lag compensation rather well IMO. Early pubG is a great example of lag compensation gone wrong.

NelsonRebel

Jexz wrote: »

There was a video where sherif had said they tried active block but due to latency they won't be going ahead with it.

I Like active combat such as blocking and dodges. But what many people fail to realize is the lag compensation required to do such things. This is often seen in complaints about desync. There will always be a massive advantage to players with low ping. Lag compensation is designed to normalize that. If they avoid I frames blocks dodges and grabs the player won't see this desync as much. BDO is a prime example of lag compensation and desync. Also how it can be exploited through frame manipulation.

That was stated, but they also said its subject to change if they feel, so I expect it will still be in future iterations of testing since it was still available not long ago for last testing phases.

But its a fair point for lag and dysyncs if that is what steven said.

I still feel its worth investing into seeing if they can optimize since it adds so much fluidity and character immersion and control.

At the end of the day people will still have bad lag and dysyncs if they have bad internet connection or ping. I dont know how much dodge roll and block would actually affect that tbh.

Jexz

The effect is highly noticeable on reactionary abilities such as dodges and blocks. The problem is exasperated in mmo's and games like pubg due to server locations.
You want a big player base but the trade off is a larger deviation of latency. In this case it is unavoidable that one players actions will not match what they see on screen.
Games like for honor have no problems with this because they can match players close together.

At the end of the day if desync isn't managed properly you won't have a player base.

I'd probably rather have active block and dodge than not, as I really like bdo's combat for the most part. But totally understand the reasons they are avoiding it at this point. It is not an easy task to pull off with a diverse range of pings.

Acarith

NelsonRebel wrote: »

@Acarith you might appreciate what I was talking about here based on your thread

I was summoned?

Yes, plenty of people say ESO has had and has some of the best combat when it works. Some people also say, however, that it's too intense. As someone here pointed out ahead of me there are performance problems with it. As a matter people actively talk about slowing down ESO and doing away with animation canceling. Many resist as it's become a core component of ESO and the Devs there balance around it.
It's not excessively terrible on performance in itself, as it's just one extra server input per user. ESO currently has four effects that can consecutively cascade three at a time. They are the abilities, basic weapon attacks, then block/roll evasive abilities.
AoC wants to deliver a good product, but I also think it can get away with two inputs. Especially if they use Cloud based solutions, the latency it causes should go away.
What a well designed, active response system can offer players is "competent" challenging engagements. Instead of fights where players just slowly watch themselves win or loose. It gives them surprises in themselves and their enemy. Monster Hunter is an example of a game where enemies are handicapped to make up for the players inability to respond. While everything in ESO PvE is prescripted the enemy actions can happen with less than a second telegraph. It can be abusive to new players, but very fun and expansive especially in Pvp. Despite what some people hear have speculated, in ESO players can't simply face tank with a defensive rotation. They have to move in and out of position, harass (lock-up) enemies with crowd controls, and properly manage resources.
I wouldn't want to set back development of AoC by building too complex of system, but if you run out of ideas for an archetype it's a whole different dimension of gameplay that can contribute to the variety of AoC.

A simpler concept of the dodge bar system could come from Naurto fighting games. Where they have X number of dodges. In their games they're called substitutions and you get three a fight. Off global, they can be hit any time. One cool thing AoC could do for a class is dodge or teleport tokens that replenish after you land certain abilities. On some classes they could simply replenish overtime.

Going back to the idea of it being universal. If it's introduced as an archetype everyone would have the ability to speck into it if they wanted to. Another thing is not all the dodges and blocks have to be the same. Some can look magical some physical. Definitely would be a cool concept to play around with.

NelsonRebel

Jexz wrote: »

The effect is highly noticeable on reactionary abilities such as dodges and blocks. The problem is exasperated in mmo's and games like pubg due to server locations.
You want a big player base but the trade off is a larger deviation of latency. In this case it is unavoidable that one players actions will not match what they see on screen.
Games like for honor have no problems with this because they can match players close together.

At the end of the day if desync isn't managed properly you won't have a player base.

I'd probably rather have active block and dodge than not, as I really like bdo's combat for the most part. But totally understand the reasons they are avoiding it at this point. It is not an easy task to pull off with a diverse range of pings.

ESOs running into this exact problem. But the lag and dysyncs arent tied to the block and dodge roll mechanics since they were all in the game well before we started to run into those issue that predominently started after zos started to mess with client calculations. I have many videos from that time that back up that as well.

But on the whole your premise is correct that they would have to work to optimize it.

I'm simply putting forth why they should as opposed to static eating damage or running away.

Leiloni

Didn't Steven say they tested an active block ability in Apocalypse testing, along with other action combat mechanics, and so few people bothered to use the active block that they decided not to use it in the
MMORPG.

Edit: Yes apparently they tested it and it turns out that it's not that few people used it, it's just that the people who did use it weren't good with it. But he talks for several minutes so I recommend watching the entire answer on the video:

In APOC when we had the active sheild stance- that was an active shield block action-based system; and when we collected design data on essentially the efficacy and essentially the accuracy of players who used that wasn't very high; and there is a concern at least on the front of implementing a action restricted type active shield block as opposed to what would traditionally be along the lines of activating a buff that grants a shield block rate adjustment and is universal on incoming damage- and interfaces with the stats- is really something that we're leaning towards in incorporating for the hybrid combat system.

He mentions dodge rolls as well in this clip and the answer basically is that he wants those types of mobility skills to be available as part of class skill sets in a way that makes sense for those classes. So you might have a Rogue or Ranger having a dodge roll but a Mage might have a teleport instead, Fighter we know has the Charge, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KesMtSOZl8k&feature=youtu.be&t=1h19m50s

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