Chaostastic wrote: » I don't want to instantly know that my build is bad. If it is I'll find it out by using it for a while. I wanna be able to try different builds for a period of time and determine afterwards which felt the most effective. Knowing instantly will remove so much fun from the game.
Chaostastic wrote: » I don't want to instantly know that my build is bad.
halbarz wrote: » There will be groups ran without one, never said that there wouldn't be. I am pointing out that by having one that is "optional public" you are automatically going to divide your player base. If the only game you played seriously is World Of Warcraft then you cannot understand this (no offense) it is pretty obvious that you are ignoring the behavior of a lot of players. So many have only used DPS meters because when they joined their MMO they were forced to in some way or the other as it is believed that it was required for content X. If you are honest with yourself maybe it is the reason you started using them The guild option is fair, why not make it a guild perk? the game is about making choices, so make a choice together with your guild in what you want to achieve and what you find most important in the game. Nobody is forcing you into a guild, there will be different ones from RP to PVP, Pve to Hardcore, ... pick the one with the perks you like and apply. Not sure if you read the "guild" part or maybe misunderstood it. Never said DPS meters kill the boss for you, will also not claim that. I said it is a short cut and anyone that has used it will admit this. You even said it in your original post, it makes it easier to identify the numbers. With those numbers starts the process of aiming at the things you need to improve your char. WoW is a bad example it had years to age and for many people, it was their first MMO, they compare everything to it. DPS meters in WoW have been a standard, it also has, in my opinion, the worst community (next to DC universe) in the end game. It is clear that you are not willing to find a middle ground with people, you say that imposing our will on you is not ok. But when people offer you a guild perk you do the exact same thing. You impose your way of playing on everyone else, saying that it should be optional is just ridiculous, anyone that thinks about this for more than 2 minutes will know that it Optional --> will split the community and people will jump aboard one or the other group to be part of group X. Again in my opinion: use the combat logs and be happy, or give an alternative such as the guild perk option
mavick wrote: » halbarz wrote: » There will be groups ran without one, never said that there wouldn't be. I am pointing out that by having one that is "optional public" you are automatically going to divide your player base. If the only game you played seriously is World Of Warcraft then you cannot understand this (no offense) it is pretty obvious that you are ignoring the behavior of a lot of players. So many have only used DPS meters because when they joined their MMO they were forced to in some way or the other as it is believed that it was required for content X. If you are honest with yourself maybe it is the reason you started using them The guild option is fair, why not make it a guild perk? the game is about making choices, so make a choice together with your guild in what you want to achieve and what you find most important in the game. Nobody is forcing you into a guild, there will be different ones from RP to PVP, Pve to Hardcore, ... pick the one with the perks you like and apply. Not sure if you read the "guild" part or maybe misunderstood it. Never said DPS meters kill the boss for you, will also not claim that. I said it is a short cut and anyone that has used it will admit this. You even said it in your original post, it makes it easier to identify the numbers. With those numbers starts the process of aiming at the things you need to improve your char. WoW is a bad example it had years to age and for many people, it was their first MMO, they compare everything to it. DPS meters in WoW have been a standard, it also has, in my opinion, the worst community (next to DC universe) in the end game. It is clear that you are not willing to find a middle ground with people, you say that imposing our will on you is not ok. But when people offer you a guild perk you do the exact same thing. You impose your way of playing on everyone else, saying that it should be optional is just ridiculous, anyone that thinks about this for more than 2 minutes will know that it Optional --> will split the community and people will jump aboard one or the other group to be part of group X. Again in my opinion: use the combat logs and be happy, or give an alternative such as the guild perk option You seem to have an issue with seeing things outside your perspective, I suppose it's not quite as hard for me having seen it from several as my playstyle evolved over the past 18 years that I've been playing MMO's. Playerbases always see some form of division, meters or not. By pure technical and development limitations you can't play with everyone, all the time. That's just plain common sense. I know exactly when and why I started using DPS meters, and it wasn't until Wrath of the Lich King which was already a couple expansions into WoW. And it was exactly around that time that I began getting more serious and competitive with my play. It is completely natural to start looking for tools to help you gauge performance and start identifying weak spots if you choose to push yourself further. And WoW was not my first MMO, nor my last, or my only. In the end the best games are going to cater to as many people as reasonable. And it's completely reasonable to allow third party mods like dps meters, which are a 100% optional choice, despite your best attempts to argue otherwise. And for the people that keep trying the toxicity angle, you are just downright naive if you think not having meters is any kind of cure for that. As I said in an earlier post, people who are toxic generally express it any way they choose, regardless of what tools are allowed in a game.
Boorder wrote: » can you get players to do a smal senario/test run for the spec/clas thee play whit a titel at the end. this makes for good practis. and it wil give a indication of how good a player is.
Boorder wrote: » the point is training yourself for getting good, and learning the mechanics of a bos ficht. and this wil also be a way to show the readleader that you put in the work for it.
halbarz wrote: » mavick wrote: » halbarz wrote: » There will be groups ran without one, never said that there wouldn't be. I am pointing out that by having one that is "optional public" you are automatically going to divide your player base. If the only game you played seriously is World Of Warcraft then you cannot understand this (no offense) it is pretty obvious that you are ignoring the behavior of a lot of players. So many have only used DPS meters because when they joined their MMO they were forced to in some way or the other as it is believed that it was required for content X. If you are honest with yourself maybe it is the reason you started using them The guild option is fair, why not make it a guild perk? the game is about making choices, so make a choice together with your guild in what you want to achieve and what you find most important in the game. Nobody is forcing you into a guild, there will be different ones from RP to PVP, Pve to Hardcore, ... pick the one with the perks you like and apply. Not sure if you read the "guild" part or maybe misunderstood it. Never said DPS meters kill the boss for you, will also not claim that. I said it is a short cut and anyone that has used it will admit this. You even said it in your original post, it makes it easier to identify the numbers. With those numbers starts the process of aiming at the things you need to improve your char. WoW is a bad example it had years to age and for many people, it was their first MMO, they compare everything to it. DPS meters in WoW have been a standard, it also has, in my opinion, the worst community (next to DC universe) in the end game. It is clear that you are not willing to find a middle ground with people, you say that imposing our will on you is not ok. But when people offer you a guild perk you do the exact same thing. You impose your way of playing on everyone else, saying that it should be optional is just ridiculous, anyone that thinks about this for more than 2 minutes will know that it Optional --> will split the community and people will jump aboard one or the other group to be part of group X. Again in my opinion: use the combat logs and be happy, or give an alternative such as the guild perk option You seem to have an issue with seeing things outside your perspective, I suppose it's not quite as hard for me having seen it from several as my playstyle evolved over the past 18 years that I've been playing MMO's. Playerbases always see some form of division, meters or not. By pure technical and development limitations you can't play with everyone, all the time. That's just plain common sense. I know exactly when and why I started using DPS meters, and it wasn't until Wrath of the Lich King which was already a couple expansions into WoW. And it was exactly around that time that I began getting more serious and competitive with my play. It is completely natural to start looking for tools to help you gauge performance and start identifying weak spots if you choose to push yourself further. And WoW was not my first MMO, nor my last, or my only. In the end the best games are going to cater to as many people as reasonable. And it's completely reasonable to allow third party mods like dps meters, which are a 100% optional choice, despite your best attempts to argue otherwise. And for the people that keep trying the toxicity angle, you are just downright naive if you think not having meters is any kind of cure for that. As I said in an earlier post, people who are toxic generally express it any way they choose, regardless of what tools are allowed in a game. Clearly we have a very different opinion nothing wrong with that of course, this is why discussion boards like this are around. 100% optional, again you are saying this from the perspective from someone that wants them. if you cannot even admit that if introduced as a tool like you want it , will become over time a requirement within the community. You are clearly not open to even consider anyone else's input. I've been playing MMOs for 18-20 years myself and have seen this happen in a lot of MMOs. Even WoW in a sense is an example of this. Interesting to hear that you used them when you got serious, I personally use tools when I cannot be bothered with figuring out the game when I am not invested but just want to experience the end game. So for me, it's when I am not serious about an MMO. In my personal opinion, if a person is invested and serious about playing the game, they will set themselves some goals and will be willing to invest the time to improve without a tool. While I understand that not everyone has the time, etc I do agree with @Noaani on the meter as a guild perk. The perk is a good middle ground, it still makes you the player figure everything out on your own or with your friends, guild. When doing guild activities with an officer or leader they can see the performance of your build. This makes it so that 1) guilds have to be very organized and find the right people for those roles, 2) does encourage teamwork and communication. 3) based on the feedback you the player still has to go back and improve and figure it all out. Some guilds have different goals and this is perfect for guilds that aim for that top spot or competitive raiding. I personally have not seen your opinion on this suggestion and frankly, I think it is an option that pleases both sides of this discussion. I do wonder, does having a meter really impact you? would you not play the game because of this or maybe be less willing to go for that top spot? Because I think your answer to this really says more about your interest in the game then you think. + if you want a meter just use an "illegal" one as people said those will be around. Just do not stream on twitch with it
mavick wrote: » halbarz wrote: » mavick wrote: » halbarz wrote: » There will be groups ran without one, never said that there wouldn't be. I am pointing out that by having one that is "optional public" you are automatically going to divide your player base. If the only game you played seriously is World Of Warcraft then you cannot understand this (no offense) it is pretty obvious that you are ignoring the behavior of a lot of players. So many have only used DPS meters because when they joined their MMO they were forced to in some way or the other as it is believed that it was required for content X. If you are honest with yourself maybe it is the reason you started using them The guild option is fair, why not make it a guild perk? the game is about making choices, so make a choice together with your guild in what you want to achieve and what you find most important in the game. Nobody is forcing you into a guild, there will be different ones from RP to PVP, Pve to Hardcore, ... pick the one with the perks you like and apply. Not sure if you read the "guild" part or maybe misunderstood it. Never said DPS meters kill the boss for you, will also not claim that. I said it is a short cut and anyone that has used it will admit this. You even said it in your original post, it makes it easier to identify the numbers. With those numbers starts the process of aiming at the things you need to improve your char. WoW is a bad example it had years to age and for many people, it was their first MMO, they compare everything to it. DPS meters in WoW have been a standard, it also has, in my opinion, the worst community (next to DC universe) in the end game. It is clear that you are not willing to find a middle ground with people, you say that imposing our will on you is not ok. But when people offer you a guild perk you do the exact same thing. You impose your way of playing on everyone else, saying that it should be optional is just ridiculous, anyone that thinks about this for more than 2 minutes will know that it Optional --> will split the community and people will jump aboard one or the other group to be part of group X. Again in my opinion: use the combat logs and be happy, or give an alternative such as the guild perk option You seem to have an issue with seeing things outside your perspective, I suppose it's not quite as hard for me having seen it from several as my playstyle evolved over the past 18 years that I've been playing MMO's. Playerbases always see some form of division, meters or not. By pure technical and development limitations you can't play with everyone, all the time. That's just plain common sense. I know exactly when and why I started using DPS meters, and it wasn't until Wrath of the Lich King which was already a couple expansions into WoW. And it was exactly around that time that I began getting more serious and competitive with my play. It is completely natural to start looking for tools to help you gauge performance and start identifying weak spots if you choose to push yourself further. And WoW was not my first MMO, nor my last, or my only. In the end the best games are going to cater to as many people as reasonable. And it's completely reasonable to allow third party mods like dps meters, which are a 100% optional choice, despite your best attempts to argue otherwise. And for the people that keep trying the toxicity angle, you are just downright naive if you think not having meters is any kind of cure for that. As I said in an earlier post, people who are toxic generally express it any way they choose, regardless of what tools are allowed in a game. Clearly we have a very different opinion nothing wrong with that of course, this is why discussion boards like this are around. 100% optional, again you are saying this from the perspective from someone that wants them. if you cannot even admit that if introduced as a tool like you want it , will become over time a requirement within the community. You are clearly not open to even consider anyone else's input. I've been playing MMOs for 18-20 years myself and have seen this happen in a lot of MMOs. Even WoW in a sense is an example of this. Interesting to hear that you used them when you got serious, I personally use tools when I cannot be bothered with figuring out the game when I am not invested but just want to experience the end game. So for me, it's when I am not serious about an MMO. In my personal opinion, if a person is invested and serious about playing the game, they will set themselves some goals and will be willing to invest the time to improve without a tool. While I understand that not everyone has the time, etc I do agree with @Noaani on the meter as a guild perk. The perk is a good middle ground, it still makes you the player figure everything out on your own or with your friends, guild. When doing guild activities with an officer or leader they can see the performance of your build. This makes it so that 1) guilds have to be very organized and find the right people for those roles, 2) does encourage teamwork and communication. 3) based on the feedback you the player still has to go back and improve and figure it all out. Some guilds have different goals and this is perfect for guilds that aim for that top spot or competitive raiding. I personally have not seen your opinion on this suggestion and frankly, I think it is an option that pleases both sides of this discussion. I do wonder, does having a meter really impact you? would you not play the game because of this or maybe be less willing to go for that top spot? Because I think your answer to this really says more about your interest in the game then you think. + if you want a meter just use an "illegal" one as people said those will be around. Just do not stream on twitch with it It's just truly mystifying that you think having something of this sort available just makes it mandatory. I've watched countless streamers in WoW and other games that have them that never look at them. I've played with them for years and only pay attention to them when I need to. Information is not a bad thing, period.
cleansingtotem wrote: » The most successful MMO of all time, in which the raids have been the best part of it got raiding "wrong". Man, you hear some real gems in this community lol.
Noaani wrote: » WoW is arguably a good game, however, it is not a good MMO. It barely qualifies as an MMO - it is more of a lobby based dungeon dive/arena game. Other than polish, all Blizzard got right with WoW was marketing.
Lfmr wrote: » I don't actually understand what the problem is with DPS meters? Removing them is just a band-aid fix for a problem with toxicity. This is not even a problem that should be addressed by the staff, but rather the community. If a guild is toxic and elitist, they're going to have a hard time recruiting new players, that is a natural solution to the problem, if you're constantly being berated because you have poor performance, maybe you should find a better group of people to be around. All of the best guilds with the most skilled players I have been a part of haven't berated me for performing poorly, but offered me constructive criticism and a helping hand for me to improve. Also, if you are afraid of DPS meters trivializing the difficulty of bosses, then I hate to break it to you, but you need to design better bosses, because that would only matter if the boss was a tank and spank or a timed dps test.
Now, let's talk compromise; the problem is that people feel that if some want to know how much damage they are dealing to bosses or other monsters (So they can improve their performance), then that will become the baseline, or it will promote a toxic attitude towards those that perform worse then others. Here's a compromise, (Although I still think band-aid fixes to problems are bad overall) Turn off DPS meters in easier and more casual encounters, and only allow an option to turn them on in encounters that require heavy teamwork and skill, so that way the competitive players have their DPS meters, and the casual players can avoid that content altogether if they want to. This allows those tighter knit groups to turn it on or off if they need to see in what areas they need to improve the most and work as a group to address their shortcomings, or allows the elitist snobs to berate their teammates and bleed players to better guilds.
River wrote: » EQ2 doesn't even come close to qualifying for the "Massively" in Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
Noaani wrote: » The only reason WoW raiding is popular is because people that raid in WoW have either never tried or tried and failed at raiding in an actual good game. I wish I had kept track of the number of WoW players (and indeed guilds) that came to EQ2 while I played it in order to "show us how to raid properly" and failed miserably to kill even entry level content.
Noaani wrote: » WoW raiding isn't even a shitstain on raiding in a number of other games. The WoW community is far too up itself considering the level of actual ability needed to raid top end WoW content, and this is in large part due to the fact that the game lets them do this.
Noaani wrote: » If server transfers and the open nature of that games API were not a thing, WoW raiding would probably be fairly good. The people would be less full of themselves - they would have to be in order to get recruits since recruits could only come from their server. The fact that they would be less full of themselves also means there could be (perhaps not would be, but could be) more worthwhile discussion on WoW raids, which would mean people could more openly talk about where they are lacking in comparison to other games - a discussion that is simply not possible in WoW due to the nature of that games raiding scene.
Noaani wrote: » If you talk to someone that raids top end in a game other than WoW, they will have a fairly solid understanding content from a number of games, including things that other games do well and other things that the game they play could do better. If you talk to someone that raids top end in WoW, they will think that WoW is the only game worth raiding in - because they are all full of themselves, think they know what they are talking about, but really have absolutely no clue about anything other than what some high profile player says, which they take as being the truth without consideration.
