DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

River wrote: »

You lost me on how api and server transfers make people arrogant.

This is basically the only part of your post that is worth replying to in the context of this discussion. Feel free to start a thread about how awesome WoW is if you wish to keep the rest of the conversation going.

In WoW, guilds are able to look up a whole lot of information on players to determine if that player would make a suitable addition to their guild. This allows guilds to judge players based on content they have taken on, rather than on that players abilities.

This means that even if a player is the actual best at their class in the game, unless they have also been in a top end guild, then no top end guild will recruit them.

This creates an insular community - which is exactly what top end raiding in WoW is.

As to server transfers - if they are simply not a thing, then that means every single potential recruit for a top end guild is someone on the server they play on. In games that do this, it means those top end guilds actually have to care about their server community. If the server doesn't have a number two raid guild, and a number three raid guild, then that top end guild has no potential new recruits that have any raid experience at all.

Basically, the way WoW is set up, top end guilds only recruit players from other top end guilds on other servers - and the game has systems to support this.

Get rid of those systems, and top end guilds have to foster the community on their server. It is in that top end guilds best interest to make sure there are other guilds on the server that are capable raiders, and it is in their best interest to be a guild that people actually want to join and would enjoy being in.

This kind of thing has a similar effect to automated grouping systems. If they exist in a game, then players in that game need not be concerned about their reputation on their server - as those players are never in a position to do anything about it. Remove that automated grouping, and others on the server are in a position to not group with that toxic player, meaning that toxic player may have trouble finding groups. The logical eventuality here is that at least some of those players that would be toxic towards others will think twice, knowing that any such act may well come back to haunt them.

Similarly, if a guild need not be concerned about the server they are on, then they obviously have no reason to be concerned about the server they are on. The players on that server are not the pool of potential recruits for that guild, they honestly may as well be NPC's. The second you limit that guilds potential recruitment pool to only players on that same server, every single person playing on that server becomes a potential recruit, and the guild has to treat the server differently.

Basically, the nature of WoW's automated grouping and ease of server transfers have led to the toxic nature of the WoW community.

This is relevant in this discussion because many people incorrectly blame combat trackers for that toxicity - but this is clearly not true due to other games having equally high levels of combat tracker use but substantially less toxicity (EQ2), or substantially lower combat tracker use, but roughly equal toxicity levels (Archeage).

Tragnar

khrome wrote: »

I don't see the point in DPS meters.

This assumes that every class is only concerned about a single number during any encounter in the game.

Some classes will do more damage than others, but they will also have less utility.

Correlation between the amount of utility and the best classes for damage is nonexistant. This always comes down to on how good the balance team is at playing the game. The classes need to be balanced by people that are good enough to understand the principles that push top-end guilds. You may ask why? Because your average Joe just copies what the top-end players do. They always have and always will. So if the game is not balanced around top-end and let's say mage stacking is the best strategy, because you have a way to mitigate the downside of this class stacking. Then the game is going to be dominated by mages.

What is really funny is that the last stages of beta will heavily influence the base archetype player numbers, because if one base archetype is quite dominant then you can be sure that will be the most played archetype.

Noaani

khrome wrote: »

I don't see the point in DPS meters.

This assumes that every class is only concerned about a single number during any encounter in the game.

Some classes will do more damage than others, but they will also have less utility. Some encounters will not even rely on damage at all. Some encounters favour burst dps, some favour sustained dps. How does a DPS meter help here? You either beat the encounter or you don't. If you don't it's more likely that 'you stood in the fire' rather than 'you didn't do enough DPS'.

Adding (support for) a DPS meter will just cause people to hyperfocus on a completely irrelevant number to the detriment of everything else. You can see what this does to other games, where people only ever play spreadsheet hero. BORING.

Play the game, not the spreadsheets.

@khrome

I missed this post.

Perhaps the first thing to point out is that a "DPS meter" is actually essentially just a colloquial term for a combat tracker. Calling it a "DPS meter" is misleading, as a combat tracker is able to measure every single facet of combat.

Sure, it can tell you sustained DPS, but if you know how to look, you can also see who is able to do well in burst DPS. You are able to see who is healing, you are able to see if a given build of your tank is able to mitigate, dodge or evade more potential damage, you are able to see who is CC'ing, who is breaking CC, who is standing in environmental traps (floor lava and such), and you are able to see who is making use of their class' utility properly.

Basically, there is nothing that can be done in combat that a combat tracker isn't able to track. Hense calling it a "DPS meter" is misleading - and imo Steven did this thread a dis-service by labeling it as that.

Now, it may well be true that if there is a combat tracker, some people will focus on that to a greater degree. I don't think that is something that anyone would dispute.

Where the dispute comes in is that some people - myself included - enjoy that. Every top end guild in existance will have at least a few players like me - people that enjoy breaking things down in order to better understand them.

This is why there is a suggested compromise. Instead of simply adding a combat tracker so that people that perhaps don't enjoy that kind of gameplay may feel like they need to, add one in to the games client in a way where only top end guilds would pick to take it - with all other guild types having someone they would rather take instead.

What this does is gives these guilds a tool that players like myself are then able to use to their fullest potential, but players that simply don't enjoy that kind of thing feel in absolutely no way obliged to take part in.

Perhaps the key thing to point out here is that no one is forcing you to play the game in a way you don't want to with combat trackers. However, without them, people are forcing the many people like myself to play the game in a way we perhaps don't want to - or indeed not at all.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

What is really funny is that the last stages of beta will heavily influence the base archetype player numbers, because if one base archetype is quite dominant then you can be sure that will be the most played archetype.

And if there is no combat tracker, you can bet that archetype will still be dominant in 5 years.

As a random aside to this discussion, I came across a quote from a game that I played a lot many, many years ago that seems completely fitting to this discussion.

"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."

Tragnar

Noaani wrote: »

As a random aside to this discussion, I came across a quote from a game that I played a lot many, many years ago that seems completely fitting to this discussion.

"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."

I don't think it is fair to mention this here, because Steven basically said only his conclusion on what is best to do in AoC. Having said that I definitely want to know on what factors this decision was made, because the more I think about this decision the more I think that the "prevention of toxicity" is just the selling reason.

I think the real reason behind not allowing meters is to knock down the goal of playing "good" and to have players focus mainly on the open world opportunities and interactions.

I 100% agree that playing good (having minmaxed build and playing mechanically well) should not be among the main goals of the average MMO player. However I definitely think meters should be present in a moderated and controlled way for guilds that want to focus on this aspect of the game.

btw yes I think that if you don't minmax and try your best to play around encounter mechanics then you just want to be decent - nothing wrong with that ofc.

Hakavay

Noaani wrote: »

Hakavay wrote: »

Personally, I fall in the pool of enjoying competing with my own performance and that of others but I've enjoyed MMOs where I had no idea how much dmg I was doing vs. others as well and didn't miss the meter one bit. Without a meter, the measure becomes "were we successful?" and that feels like the healthiest way a community can approach success.

The issue here is that if you are not successful, the obvious question to then ask is; why?

If your question as to being successful was always answered in the affirmative, then I'd agree that combat trackers are not needed. I'd also suggest that the content was too easy.

When you get to the stage where you are asking my question though, answers are only possible with objective data, which is only obtainable with a combat tracker.

I don't debate your point in the least but there are fight designs that afford you flexibility in whether you truly need the entire groups information. WoW is an example where the fight design tightly mandates everyone perform at a certain level, at least for Mythic raiding. Heroic, Normal, and LFR all have room for carrying to various degrees. On the contrary, GW2 fights are less tuned to require X performance from all DPS to be successful. Part of that is less reliance on set fight durations and more freedom in execution. I'd also say that the games I know which rely most heavily on meters also have HYPER boiled down roles to remove any hybrid nature from gameplay. I hope AoC does not take a similar stance. Once you start to factor in CC, interrupts, off-tanking, off-healing, buffs, etc. the value of meters goes down significantly. This is a large part of what makes GW2 a better example of why meters don't matter as much; such a large portion of gameplay is less measurable or at least adds a ton of complexity to get the full picture. I hope combat is dynamic enough to devalue metrics as narrow as DPS meters.

I know the value of meters as I've been both raid leader and DPS vying for 1st place. I also know meters can lead to toxic mentalities and I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons. Right now I lean away from meters because of the bad taste they've left in my mouth from WoW's community and more toward downplaying their importance from the positive experiences I've had in GW2 in their absence. Admittedly, I have a meter in GW2 but use it exclusively to optimize my performance Again, still fully respect your opinion as well.

River

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Link your armory in wow or shut up on telling others how wow works you liar.

Doesn't matter he has such a hate boner for WoW you can't even talk reasonably to him.

Diadorim

I'm not pro DPS meters. They tend to egg on elitism and exclusion and may not leave room for people to grow and adapt in their roles. Not everyone is a veteran MMO player (I am not) and it can curb people's enthusiasm if they're just told off and booted instead of getting constructive criticism and room to experiment.

Tragnar

Diadorim wrote: »

I'm not pro DPS meters. They tend to egg on elitism and exclusion and may not leave room for people to grow and adapt in their roles. Not everyone is a veteran MMO player (I am not) and it can curb people's enthusiasm if they're just told off and booted instead of getting constructive criticism and room to experiment.

This will happen regardless of the meter's presence. People will exclude you for what you choose to play if you don't play the popular build. Trick is to get into a guild and try to find constructive criticism there.

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Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Having said that I definitely want to know on what factors this decision was made, because the more I think about this decision the more I think that the "prevention of toxicity" is just the selling reason.

It absolutely is.

It is a completely fabricated reason with absolutely no actual truth to it.

If it is what Steven and his team believed to be true, then this game is infact doomed to mediocrity and obscurance. You can't believe something that false on a topic and still be successful at it.

I think the real reason behind not allowing meters is to knock down the goal of playing "good" and to have players focus mainly on the open world opportunities and interactions.

This may well be true, but leads to other issues.

If the goal is to get people focusing less on playing "good", then why are tehy developing raid content in a way where the better you are at it, the better your rewards? That seems completely counter-productive if the idea of the game is to knock down that notion of players feeling the need to play the game well.

Then you have the notion of Intrepid wanting content that is difficult to the point where only single digit percentages of the population are able to take it on successfully. If that doesn't require players to play the game well, I'm not sure what does.

While your comment makes a whole lot more sense for why they would want to prevent combat trackers from the game than Intrepids stated reason, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Noaani

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Link your armory in wow or shut up

See, this is why WoW is so toxic. It allows for this kind of comment to exist, and it allows others in that game to go along with it. Rather than attempting to discuss things like actual civil human beings, all people in WoW care about is the opinion of the person that is in the better guild.

For this reason, I never allow a connection to be made between my forum posting and my in game characters - in any game, ever.

You have to deal with what I am saying based on what it is I am saying. If I am wrong, you knowing who I am in game will not assist you in proving me wrong. If I am right, you knowing who I am in game will not assist me in proving so. I will not allow myself to win an argument due to what guild I am in, and I would assume you feel the same way - this leaves that comment as completely pointless, and destructive to discussion rather than helpful to it - which again is exactly what I have already said is the case in WoW. People in WoW do not discuss WoW constructively - because things like the above are possible and supported by the game.

Basically, you have what I am saying here, on these forums, to either prove, disprove or ignore. So far, you've not even made an attempt to disprove anything - and best of luck if you try to.

River wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Link your armory in wow or shut up on telling others how wow works you liar.

Doesn't matter he has such a hate boner for WoW you can't even talk reasonably to him.

You can, you just need to start by talking reasonably.

So far, you haven't attempted that part. As a free point, entering in to a discussion with actual pointless numbers to "back up" your point of view is not reasonable discussion.

Noaani

@Diadorim

Diadorim wrote: »

I'm not pro DPS meters. They tend to egg on elitism and exclusion and may not leave room for people to grow and adapt in their roles. Not everyone is a veteran MMO player (I am not) and it can curb people's enthusiasm if they're just told off and booted instead of getting constructive criticism and room to experiment.

It is people like you that would be best served by the prevailing suggestion in this thread.

That suggestion is for combat trackers to only exist in the game as a guild based perk - where most guilds would have an option they would rather take than a combat tracker, but top end PvE guilds would see the value in that tracker and so pick it. This combat tracker would only be able to track the combat of players that are in that guild.

What this will do is mean that you are able to play the entire game, from start to finish, without ever being exposed to a combat tracker - if that is what you wish to do.

If at some point you do decide that you want to take your play to the next level in regards to PvE content, all you need to do is to join a guild that is taking on that next level of PvE content (or create one yourself). With this, you would then be opting in to a situation where you have a combat tracker to use, and as such you have the tools needed to take your ability up to that next level that you have decided is what you want to do.

This seems to me to completely prevent the issue that you can see with a combat tracker, without preventing the people that will make good use of them from having them.

Diadorim

@Noaani

That sounds like a decent middle option to me. I'm all for improvement, just not too forced or demanding.
I guess I'll have to trust in the Guild Leader to be of the coaching kind. If someone else can see the meter, I'd still want to use it myself to get feedback though. It's not my goal to stay ignorant, I just don't want to be pressured too much.

Noaani

Diadorim wrote: »

That sounds like a decent middle option to me. I'm all for improvement, just not too forced or demanding.
I guess I'll have to trust in the Guild Leader to be of the coaching kind. If someone else can see the meter, I'd still want to use it myself to get feedback though. It's not my goal to stay ignorant, I just don't want to be pressured too much.

I agree.

Not everyone wants to play the game in that manner, and I can see how some people would see the existance of combat trackers available to all to be suggesting that this is the way they should play.

I also personally think that it should be up to top end guilds guilds to provide training for players wanting to play at the top end, as it is only top end guilds that require play at that level (even if this training is not specificailly by the leader of that guild). To me, this will make those guilds stronger in terms of interpersonal relationships, and will mean that these guilds are more inclined to recruit based on player personality rather than pure numbers - though there would be an obvious understanding that once in the guild, and some training is provided, an amount of performance would be expected.

GodsThesis

River wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Link your armory in wow or shut up on telling others how wow works you liar.

Doesn't matter he has such a hate boner for WoW you can't even talk reasonably to him.

Don't worry, I too am a senseless toxic edgelord and sometimes like to write like yall, though not this time.

Typically in my experience, those who call someone's multiple, time-dedicated, reasonable responses as having a "hate boner" are the actual unreasonable people. You should probably read and understand his response, not just read and then not understand. The guy's posts are more reasonable and better worded than yours and that other person.

You may not agree with some of the things he says or you may dismiss some of them, but they are reasonable. The scope of Reason/Logic isn't limited to your shortsighted vision as it would be mine even though a lot of us probably think it is.

Anyways, I am relatively on the fence on DPS meters, more so indifferent because I got a strong feeling there will be DPS meters whether it's allowed or not. I am just curious to see if the studio can successfully prevent them, even though I am very doubtful. It's a scenario I'd like to ride out.

I could always test out damage/builds with mobs or against people without a meter. And I understand having one will greatly help me in testing stuff out. I am also curious as to how fast the meta will develop in relation to the frequency of balance changes/patches.

I think having a guild optional DPS meter is a nice viable compromise as the people we interact with will be our guilds/communities who probably share one's own standards, interests, visions, and goals.

unknown

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Noaani

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Link your armory in wow or shut up

See, this is why WoW is so toxic. It allows for this kind of comment to exist, and it allows others in that game to go along with it. Rather than attempting to discuss things like actual civil human beings, all people in WoW care about is the opinion of the person that is in the better guild.

For this reason, I never allow a connection to be made between my forum posting and my in game characters - in any game, ever.

You have to deal with what I am saying based on what it is I am saying. If I am wrong, you knowing who I am in game will not assist you in proving me wrong. If I am right, you knowing who I am in game will not assist me in proving so. I will not allow myself to win an argument due to what guild I am in, and I would assume you feel the same way - this leaves that comment as completely pointless, and destructive to discussion rather than helpful to it - which again is exactly what I have already said is the case in WoW. People in WoW do not discuss WoW constructively - because things like the above are possible and supported by the game.

Basically, you have what I am saying here, on these forums, to either prove, disprove or ignore. So far, you've not even made an attempt to disprove anything - and best of luck if you try to.

River wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Link your armory in wow or shut up on telling others how wow works you liar.

Doesn't matter he has such a hate boner for WoW you can't even talk reasonably to him.

You can, you just need to start by talking reasonably.

So far, you haven't attempted that part. As a free point, entering in to a discussion with actual pointless numbers to "back up" your point of view is not reasonable discussion.

The liar is also a coward and playing the victim, not shocking.

I find it interesting that you are calling me a coward, when it is me that is standing here inviting you in to a debate, and you that is too scared to actually enter in to said debate. As to suggesting that I am playing the victim, I'm actually not sure where you got that from.

Again, this is the WoW in you showing. You are more interested in discussing the other person rather than the actual topic. This is not surprising - and is just pointing out how much of a disservice WoW has been to the wider MMO community.

Noaani

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Hes a proven liar

Where is this proof?

I am an accused liar, sure. Not a proven one. There is a distinct difference, and I can not combat the accusations until there is an attempt at offering said proof.

unknown

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