Different types of Dungeons and Raids

What if you had 3 types of dungeons and raids? Resource Dungeons/Raids, Gear Dungeons/Raids and Lore-based Dungeons/Raids?

Resource Dungeons/raids could be open world dungeons/raids, that give you the materials required to repair/enchant your gear.

Gear Dungeons/raids could be instanced dungeons/raids, that give you gear/gear crafting material, based on your performance in that dungeon.

Lore-based Dungeon/Raids are exactly what they sound like. They are instanced dungeons/raids that drop moderately good gear/materials.

This way you can have challenging PvE content by virtue of it being instanced, without taking much away from the social aspect of MMOs, as players will have to do open world PvE content in order to constantly enchant and repair their high level gear.

The reason I suggest this idea is because I feel like its very difficult to make open world dungeons/raids truly challenging, at least in terms of PvE. Right now it looks like the main challenge of PvE content actually lies in PvP, as you will have to constantly fight off players that come to contest the dungeon/raid. This can be great on a moderate basis, but if you have to constantly do it everytime you decide to clear a dungeon/raid, it can get tiring real quick.

What do you guys think? Have there been MMOs in the past that managed to make open world PvE content truly challenging?

(EDIT - removed lore-based dungeons as that wasn't really my main point)

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Comments

Aardvark

Tragnar wrote: »

@Warth

You still miss their design goal. To keep the endgame in the open world. Your solution moves the endgame to a different instanced content

And you miss that any pve raids in open world pvp will be joke easy as you have to fight off the pvpers. Pve in the middle of pvp will always be a joke from the pve part. Some people expect a game calling itself pvx to have meaning full pve also and not just a boss tossed out there meant to cause more pvp and some dev going look pve like we said

bigepeen

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@bigepeen

But its healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players.

This has very little correlation to the health of a game. Look at FFVIX for example, that game has basically a non-existent PvP population, yet the health of the game is quite good.

PvX players are PvX players, not PvP or PvE players. I agree that with PvX, you need good PvE content, but it shouldn't be a requirement to have a lot of instanced PvE content, and I would argue that's actually detrimental to a PvX open world.

FF14 is not a PvX game. Its a PvE game.

You said "It's healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players".

My bad. I was just referring to AoC.

No problem. That may very well be true. I'm not sure though, I think it will be hard to keep strictly PvE happy with the goals of a PvX open world game.

Aardvark

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@bigepeen

But its healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players.

This has very little correlation to the health of a game. Look at FFVIX for example, that game has basically a non-existent PvP population, yet the health of the game is quite good.

PvX players are PvX players, not PvP or PvE players. I agree that with PvX, you need good PvE content, but it shouldn't be a requirement to have a lot of instanced PvE content, and I would argue that's actually detrimental to a PvX open world.

FF14 is not a PvX game. Its a PvE game.

You said "It's healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players".

My bad. I was just referring to AoC.

No problem. That may very well be true. I'm not sure though, I think it will be hard to keep strictly PvE happy with the goals of a PvX open world game.

The issue is more would it really be pvx if there is 0 meaningful pve ... if it’s just going to be pvp with sprinkles get me 20 arenas and 10 siege types and call it done. If it’s going to be pvx put in a couple high in progression instanced raids

bigepeen

Aardvark wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@bigepeen

But its healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players.

This has very little correlation to the health of a game. Look at FFVIX for example, that game has basically a non-existent PvP population, yet the health of the game is quite good.

PvX players are PvX players, not PvP or PvE players. I agree that with PvX, you need good PvE content, but it shouldn't be a requirement to have a lot of instanced PvE content, and I would argue that's actually detrimental to a PvX open world.

FF14 is not a PvX game. Its a PvE game.

You said "It's healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players".

My bad. I was just referring to AoC.

No problem. That may very well be true. I'm not sure though, I think it will be hard to keep strictly PvE happy with the goals of a PvX open world game.

The issue is more would it really be pvx if there is 0 meaningful pve

I think AoC might need to come up with some innovative dungeon designs to make PvE content deep. Or possibly have enough dungeons that the number of PvP encounters during PvE are fairly uncommon.

CaptnChuck

bigepeen wrote: »

Aardvark wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@bigepeen

But its healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players.

This has very little correlation to the health of a game. Look at FFVIX for example, that game has basically a non-existent PvP population, yet the health of the game is quite good.

PvX players are PvX players, not PvP or PvE players. I agree that with PvX, you need good PvE content, but it shouldn't be a requirement to have a lot of instanced PvE content, and I would argue that's actually detrimental to a PvX open world.

FF14 is not a PvX game. Its a PvE game.

You said "It's healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players".

My bad. I was just referring to AoC.

No problem. That may very well be true. I'm not sure though, I think it will be hard to keep strictly PvE happy with the goals of a PvX open world game.

The issue is more would it really be pvx if there is 0 meaningful pve

I think AoC might need to come up with some innovative dungeon designs to make PvE content deep. Or possibly have enough dungeons that the number of PvP encounters during PvE are fairly uncommon.

Now this is an interesting idea as well. Kinda like a maze you mean?

bigepeen

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

Aardvark wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@bigepeen

But its healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players.

This has very little correlation to the health of a game. Look at FFVIX for example, that game has basically a non-existent PvP population, yet the health of the game is quite good.

PvX players are PvX players, not PvP or PvE players. I agree that with PvX, you need good PvE content, but it shouldn't be a requirement to have a lot of instanced PvE content, and I would argue that's actually detrimental to a PvX open world.

FF14 is not a PvX game. Its a PvE game.

You said "It's healthy for a game to have large populations of all types of players".

My bad. I was just referring to AoC.

No problem. That may very well be true. I'm not sure though, I think it will be hard to keep strictly PvE happy with the goals of a PvX open world game.

The issue is more would it really be pvx if there is 0 meaningful pve

I think AoC might need to come up with some innovative dungeon designs to make PvE content deep. Or possibly have enough dungeons that the number of PvP encounters during PvE are fairly uncommon.

Now this is an interesting idea as well. Kinda like a maze you mean?

I didn't think about mazes specifically, but yeah that could be a great idea.

Marcet

Hi, I dont like open world dungeons and having to deal with people trying to kill you when you are putting all your efforts on beating an already super hard dungeon.

I think dungeon difficulty will be too low if you have to deal with other people on top of that.

If they want to camp you at the entrace it's fine, but I want instanced PvE dungeons, with no preocupation of another guild stealing of cleaning you up. I don't want to share the dungeon with other people than my group/raid.

Balrog21

I asked Margaret about dungeons, and I think we are going to have way more than anyone even thinks we are going to have. Plus open world bosses to deal with as well.
The world is going to be big enough so we won't have the playing on top of other players is my opinion. Sure there will be some, but not to the detriment of the game. I wouldn't separate the two at all, that creates unnecessary friction you dont need in the game.

Tragnar

Aardvark wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

@Warth

You still miss their design goal. To keep the endgame in the open world. Your solution moves the endgame to a different instanced content

And you miss that any pve raids in open world pvp will be joke easy as you have to fight off the pvpers. Pve in the middle of pvp will always be a joke from the pve part. Some people expect a game calling itself pvx to have meaning full pve also and not just a boss tossed out there meant to cause more pvp and some dev going look pve like we said

I'll repeat what I wrote earlier in this thread. Open world raids in Ashes can be good only if they created without any thought on PvP. Securing the time and freedom to raid should be up to the players to secure. I completely reject your presumption that raids should be tuned to have in mind ongoing PvP inside the raid. If players are doing PvP in raids then clearing the raid should be straight up impossible. This at least leads to the guilds trying to forge alliances and many guilds might be just a group of PvP mercenaries that are hired for caravan or raid protection.

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