Gauging Community Combat Preference [Tab vs. Action, thoughts on Hybrid]

I was wondering, AoC seems to be appealing to both tab target fans and action combat fans. But I've personally not really met anyone who would choose tab targeting over action combat (and was even of the opinion that action combat is simply a modernized and improved version of the other), even as someone who split my time between WoW/FFXIV and BDO/Tera. For me personally, Tera's combat was the SOLE reason I played the game - literally nothing else, which makes me think that a game with good outside mechanics AND a good combat system is all you need to have the golden MMO.

What does the community here think?

~~Nalifi

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Valento92

I prefer a free-form tab-target based combat, as in you can target lock the adds but it serves solely to trace the path of (mostly) ranged attacks like arrows and fireballs, this means that should a target dodge 'out of' the previously determined path for a fireball they would successfully avoid the spell. For me, Ashes of Creation is a direct evolution of GW2 in this sense, while providing much better connection between tab-target and action combat and more "weight" (hopefully?) to the animations.

Great Brae

Having first been introduced to online gaming with Phantasy star online, I much prefer action rpg elements. But I will love it more with the fantasy that the mid-evil setting can bring. I am waiting for you spellblade/Bladecaller....

That being said, I do like target locking to at least watch what your foe is doing and engage it in combat. Tab targeting can be used with that at least.

Valento92

Damokles wrote: »

Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.

I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@

NelsonRebel

Valento92 wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.

I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@

I guess its odd to me since I'm the complete opposite. Not using my manual aim to target even as a magic player feels weird to me. I hate tab and just pressing a button cycling to any enemy without actually looking at the individual. Breaks immersion and gameplay to the max for me lol. I was estatic to leave WoW for other games (mainly ESO ) when I finally had the option to do more realistic and immersive combat

Valento92

NelsonRebel wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.

I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@

I guess its odd to me since I'm the complete opposite. Not using my manual aim to target even as a magic player feels weird to me. I hate tab and just pressing a button cycling to any enemy without actually looking at the individual. Breaks immersion and gameplay to the max for me lol. I was estatic to leave WoW for other games (mainly ESO ) when I finally had the option to do more realistic and immersive combat

Ah.. mmm see, that's where AOC shines. It provides both systems so we can enjoy the same game in slightly different ways! /cheers

H8edHero

Since I want/need the game to support me using my own controller configuration. I need the Action Combat option at the very least. I was very happy to see it in the recent development update. I just hope the camera can look behind me when running another direction. From the video it doesnt seem to be able to do that. I will work with it but it will further limit capabilities.

Merek

The "hybrid" system isn't even a real thing, it's literally tab-targeting but you use a reticle to click on targets. Just like ESO. It's a gimmick. I'd personally prefer action combat as it takes far more skill, but if we're honest, only Korean MMO's seem to use it without making it horrible. New World being a weird, small exception.

Dreoh

Merek wrote: »

The "hybrid" system isn't even a real thing, it's literally tab-targeting but you use a reticle to click on targets. Just like ESO. It's a gimmick. I'd personally prefer action combat as it takes far more skill, but if we're honest, only Korean MMO's seem to use it without making it horrible. New World being a weird, small exception.

That's an oversimplification and misinterpretation of what hybrid is and what they showed.

Hybrid is definitely a real thing, look at ESO or GW2 or even Wildstar.
Basic attacks are a free action and you can do them regardless of having a target. Same as many linear projectile or hitscan action skills in AoC.

NelsonRebel

Merek wrote: »

The "hybrid" system isn't even a real thing, it's literally tab-targeting but you use a reticle to click on targets. Just like ESO. It's a gimmick. I'd personally prefer action combat as it takes far more skill, but if we're honest, only Korean MMO's seem to use it without making it horrible. New World being a weird, small exception.

ESO is almost entirely action combat and is hugely successful.

The tab target isnt a tab target, its just a highlighter.

Everythig else requires pure action roll dodge, block and aim reticle and skill activations being 100% dependent on aiming and activating on pure reticle targeting.

Gears of war too is a good example.

Kat_N7

I very much prefer the hybrid combat system because of my experience with it in GW2. It can feel really smooth, satisfying, and balanced if they do it properly. I'd much rather have a good hybrid combat system than a purely tab target or purely action based system.

Varkun

Don't care as long as it is fun.

Does not matter what the eventual combat system is some will hate it some will love it with many sitting in the middle. But at the end of the day the best combat systems out there will only get you so far if the games other systems suck.

Selo

I prefer tab target
action combat jsut becomes to spammy with leftclicks and is alot about strafing around enemies for LoS, especially in PvP.
I rather use skills to do what i need to do, it gives me alot more variation then just spamming 4-5 skills and left mousebutton.

maouw

NelsonRebel wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Tab for ranged and action for melee.
Why? I am ridiculously bad at aiming in any kind of FPS-based game. Bullets just seem to curve around my enemies even if i aim correctly at them....
Bow and arrow would be even worse because of the projectile delay over long distances.

I second this... NW got me so uncomfortable lol but then again I was never an action combat player, especially ranged classes. Man, aiming with an action camera is... awful. I mean, I hate it so much like... so much. @_@

I guess its odd to me since I'm the complete opposite. Not using my manual aim to target even as a magic player feels weird to me. I hate tab and just pressing a button cycling to any enemy without actually looking at the individual. Breaks immersion and gameplay to the max for me lol. I was estatic to leave WoW for other games (mainly ESO ) when I finally had the option to do more realistic and immersive combat

I feel ya man. I like tab for camera stability but my brain is heaps more engaged in full action.

Tab magic always puts me to sleep. e.g. Kingdom Hearts BBS is by far my favourite combat system - which is tab heavy, but the magic system was like hitting a roadbump in the flow battle.

Mice offer so much precision compared to joysticks, it's a huge waste to ignore that.

But I'm a support at heart, and support is a huuuuge pain when I'm trying to click on the rogue who's appearing and disappearing everywhere.

Balrog21

I do want to chime in again, I can see both sides of the spectrum with this, but I think it's really going to boil down to more player accessibility. The more people playing the better.
After all I've seen so far and heard Steven say over the course since the start i have full faith they aren't going to put out some garbage no one likes.
This will be a great time for the constructive feedback, Steven has asked for if you are in the alphas and betas.
No, not just this combat sucks.....real constructive feedback that will help the game overall, and help them make the awesome game we all want.

mcstackerson

I said my preference but I never said why. I've played games that used both systems and felt good.
My reasons for prefering free aim over tab is:

1. more diversity in skill delivery:

With tab, you have a target, press a button, and the skill goes off on the target, with there sometimes being a travel time.

With free aim systems, there is so much more you can do with how the skill is delivered.

You have projectiles that you can vary in size and speed. You can have a fireball be a slow-moving, large, projectile. You can make arrows curve in the air by gravity as they would in our reality. With their travel time, they get naturally balanced by range. You can let them fly father then you would any tab skill as it's hard to predict a player's position the farther out they are. Players also have a chance to react as they can see the skill coming.

You can still have your raycast/hitscan abilities that hit the target if you aimed at top of them. Basically functions the same a tab skills but require you get aim your curser which can be difficult.

For melee, you can have a variety of different swing hit boxes. You can vary them in width and length. You can have long narrow thrusts that are hard to aim but go far as well as wide swings that are easy to land on anyone hugging you.

To me, there is just so much that can be done with it which kind of leads to the second point.

2. More "skill." This is less about epeen and more about learning. As a gamer, I like to learn how to play my character and master them. With the variety of ways skills can function that i mentioned in my first part, i find there is more to learn in free aim systems. Mastering the hitbox and timings of all my abilities feels rewarding.

3. Harder to be focused in fights. This probably sounds small but might be the biggest reason I have always disliked tab. You only need to play a melee in any tab game that has large scale pvp content (Hasla gives me nightmares). The fact that in a big fight, if the enemy side has enough numbers there is that feeling that I'm one focus macro+any instant cast skill away from death and there is nothing I can really do about it, especially because I play melee. Even if it doesn't really happen, the fact that it's really that easy is demoralizing for me. As a melee though, you generally die quickly in large fights if you try to engage. It's just not fun and i don't think it fits the melee class fantasy.

In tab, you click on someone and your skills will fly through any number of friends and enemies to hit your target. In free aim systems, even if your skills don't collide with allies, it's hard to aim through them with any level of accuracy. Not only that, it can't fly through an enemy. It will hit the first enemy it comes in contact with.

Aiming creates a situation where people naturally want to spread out to fight instead of staying clumped up in a giant zerg. This is nice as it breaks the battle up into smaller fights. It's still a large fight as the two armies will be fighting all around you and focusing can still happen but it's harder. This generally makes the fight a little bit more manageable and allows you to spend more time in it, enjoying the chaos.

Sorry, for the long post. I think my last point might seem weird but it's something I've noticed and in all the games I've played, I've started to feel differences. Love archeage but as a melee character, I hated its large scale pvp. I probably should note that there are other things that ashes are doing that i think will help this.

neobpm

Action, of course, tab is a total bullshit.

Fizzwingle

Nalifi wrote: »

I was wondering, AoC seems to be appealing to both tab target fans and action combat fans. But I've personally not really met anyone who would choose tab targeting over action combat (and was even of the opinion that action combat is simply a modernized and improved version of the other), even as someone who split my time between WoW/FFXIV and BDO/Tera. For me personally, Tera's combat was the SOLE reason I played the game - literally nothing else, which makes me think that a game with good outside mechanics AND a good combat system is all you need to have the golden MMO.

What does the community here think?

~~Nalifi

The dual focus on trying to implement both Tab target and Action systems seems to me to have an end point where the overall combat system wont really feel right for people with a preference of one or the other.

It will also leave the game in a situation where one style of combat OR the other is the meta. No amount of balancing will change that.

I am yet to see a game that has great action combat systems have true depth as a role playing game with a complex synergistic crafting based economy or truly meaningful choices within class systems. The combat is, and should be the reason to play those games. Action combat is at its most engaging, effective and interesting when using a controller, and for a game where combat is most often one on one is undoubtedly a more visceral experience. Mouse based action combat systems tend to be either unwieldy or too simplistic to be more than a face your opponent button spam + dodge.

Tab Target systems tend to offer more diverse combat at the expense of activity and can feel somewhat slower or less responsive and limited in one on one combat. Tab Target Systems are far superior for implementing group PvE mechanics that are engaging, complex and synergistic in ways action combat systems simply can not. Games that use this system tend to be PC based and offer far an away the better RPG experience in all non combat areas and large group raid content.

Ashes of Creation is trying to marry that intense visceral feeling you get with action based PvP combat and the breadth/width of meaningful and engaging PvE and group content that is far better supported with the Tab Target System.

We have always seen the two schools of combat as distinctly separate entities, and i think this has led us as players and Devs to ask the wrong question. At the moment we are asking how do we utilise both of these systems in a game. The right question is how do we make the one that supports RPG depth feel like in your face, bone shattering, face-burning, tea-bagged you sucker PvP goodness.

The answer can not be found in a separated Hybrid system, it lies in creating an active Tab Target System that gives the player more agency and options during PvP encounters so that Ashes PvP combat can capture the intensity and skill factors that make action combat systems so much fun without losing group and PvE depth in the process. To do that, we need to morph Tab Target into a system that feels active and can be harnessed as effectively with a controller as it can be with a mouse and keyboard.

In the latest Dev Stream we saw a boxed skills system which i believe lends itself to creating an Active Tab Targeting system which could potentially work to make combat feel very much like Action combat.

The key to it all lies in giving the player agency over procced abilities. Essentially being able to store procs which the player can then activate as they choose to during combat. I would also consider using two-phase timed activation for certain skills and abilities (think NBA2k shooting bar) which would give higher value for closer to perfect timing or in synch with a class skill.

Instead of conforming to the idea of passive procs just doing their thing, we instead focus on creating active procs which rely on the player to use them at the most beneficial point of contact. If these abilities are based on the fundamentals of action combat like orientation, distance and position of relative players rather than being dependent on where the cursor is locked, then it IS the hybrid of action and Tab Target without the need for a separate discrete system to accommodate it.

There are a multitude of benefits to taking this approach over the current iteration of the Hybrid idea, the main one being that it is the one system for everyone. I also believe that a system like this would be far easier to balance for mouse and controller based players than the current one will be.

Expanding down this kind of path offers far more potential for general player agency in weapon, skill and crafting lines. It also has some interesting possibilities in legendary quest lines that could offer unique rewards with unique procs for the successful adventurer.

Anyway, if you have got this far, thanks for taking the time to work through this WOT. Feedback most welcome

Fizzwingle

NelsonRebel wrote: »

I wrote a whole thread on this exact subject @Nalifi

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45969/combat-and-mechanics-active-vs-passive-combat/p1

I go into detail on a couple specific mechanics but I 100% favor more action combat like @Lfmr mentioned about ESO's.

I could not stand WoW's combat of click and let keybinds do all your work.

So when ESO came out with actual skillful gameplay and a limited bar choice selection so you actually had to make choices in your builds with actual combat movement as a real factor?

Oh man a no brainer, it was like a breath of fresh air from the moldy dark room of WoWs combat, to ESO's vastly more interesting pace and combat choices.

Now for people who are old or disabled I understand why having tab target would be preferable

Given that the Core market sector for MMORPG is PC based 30+ year olds, then you are really saying that Tab Target is the smart move for any company making an MMO >.<

Nodoff

Action combat is my preference 10/10 times.

NelsonRebel

Fizzwingle wrote: »

NelsonRebel wrote: »

I wrote a whole thread on this exact subject @Nalifi

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45969/combat-and-mechanics-active-vs-passive-combat/p1

I go into detail on a couple specific mechanics but I 100% favor more action combat like @Lfmr mentioned about ESO's.

I could not stand WoW's combat of click and let keybinds do all your work.

So when ESO came out with actual skillful gameplay and a limited bar choice selection so you actually had to make choices in your builds with actual combat movement as a real factor?

Oh man a no brainer, it was like a breath of fresh air from the moldy dark room of WoWs combat, to ESO's vastly more interesting pace and combat choices.

Now for people who are old or disabled I understand why having tab target would be preferable

Given that the Core market sector for MMORPG is PC based 30+ year olds, then you are really saying that Tab Target is the smart move for any company making an MMO >.<

No.

Dont even know why or how you made up a statement that not only is directly opposite of what I was saying, but also objectively false. I would say the exact opposite actually.

The core market of mmorpg being PC only has only been alive for a relatively short timespan in relation to games as a whole. Most arcade games and old game consoles were action based and the first form of gaming that the majority of people were, and are introduced to and play today. Especially more action focused in todays modern world of gamers thanks to advancing and modern technology for game systems.

Technology for computers and mechanic functions and coding didnt start advancing until games had established themselves and new innovative programmers were being hired and pushed to create better more fluid gameplay for mmorpgs.

Hence why the market is now catching up with current and modern gamers. Action combat is objectively more engaging, and the games are advancing to reflect this across the board.

Tab Target is a simplistic sytem that is more of a relic of older system limitations. I dont mind that it exists to assist an older game population, but its not an excuse to limit the players who are coming up and far more numerous across the board that simply prefer action combat in the game world.

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