Why i will not be playing AoC

Hey Everyone,

I heard about this game recently and there is a ton of good that i saw. Unfortunately as much as i enjoy destroying people in PVP i enjoy PVE more. The answers toward PVE and some of the examples i have seen sound cool but do not fulfill my wants as someone who enjoys PVE and more particularly Raiding. I was really hoping AoC would check all the boxes but it fell short. It checks alot of boxes and even adds boxes. However, this game appears to be falling short on some important points. Its stance towards Addons which is essentially a stance against players who want to make the game better or easier in a sort. I am typically a minimalist in this area so i was not too worried about it. I also think any addon ideas should be brought up now and maybe they can just add those features. An example of a feature i would like to see is a map of sorts you can right strategy on for the team to look at and also be able to mark on. This is now a addon in WoW. I use it a lot because its nice to be able to draw a encounter or upload the map and draw out our strategies. However DPS meters and healing meters have been lumped into that. Its almost a disrespect to someones intelligence to even debate the topic because its essential. Its not even that its just essential but if you don't want to see it so you can immerse yourself into a game. an example would be questing or exploring. Just TURN IT OFF. DPS meters do not have to be displayed 100% of the time. PVE events were just displayed on taking a castle where loot would go to the guild with the most dmg or be given by dmg output yet there is no dps meter. This is honestly a huge let down for them to go over both of these points nearly back to back without notice of the logic contradicting itself. i for one would like a option to hide my UI as well so i can do just that. immerse myself while questing or hanging out at a tavern. I have a feeling class balancing may also be a reason why the dps meter is something the developers are against dps meters. ESO had issues with OP builds plaguing a diverse class selection. They dont have to worry about it if they don't have meters. well not as much anyway. The third issue is more so because i am a community leader and i do not want to be forced to have a particular size community. I have had huge communities and small. I do not want to have to recruit and manage a 40 man raid team or larger. The best example of where a game got it right would be WoW Wrath of the Lich King where they allowed 25 or 10 man raids. Options and scaling works wonders. I understand because i saw more of the game of why the game is being tuned this way. The hope is that there is a huge community in this game. However with its not so friendly PVE content. I think the communities will not meet exceptions at max level. Which will break the meta being created. Things can change as the game is in alpha but from what i am seeing from the small community here and the streams. This game is going to have everything i wish WoW had. However it wont have what WoW has. WoW with all of its faults still has a community and raids with a lot of effort put into them. They have made mistakes with the last expansion but they are also now opening up legacy servers. Its hard from a PVE stand point to pick AoC over TBC or a possible good retail expansion or even WOTLK. PVP is still good in WoW and i enjoy it a lot. I love alot of what i am seeing here however i am getting flash backs of the last WoW killer, the one before that, and that. I think AoC is a step in the right direction. i like the thinking outside of the box and mixing some PVE and PVP.

I may hop into a stream or 2 and check on the development but i think the issues are too deeply placed. Not to mention real feedback is hard to find. People are easily distracted by pretty things and i for better or for worse have a good way of getting to the meat and potatoes.

cheers,
Tarnish

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Grievousness

winner909098 wrote: »

I laughed when he said wow had a community

What? The wow community has one of the strongest bonds imagineable:
Their hatred for the game they love.
It's not perfect but it definitely has a very passionate community.

On a more serious note.
Have you seen how many people came to show respect after Reckful died?
I think it was impressive.

insomnia wrote: »

But Intrepid has said you can customize your interface. Wait and see how much we can do

Yea sure the game is not finished so they will hopefully improve it.
But the whole point of getting in touch with the community is to get feedback that improves the game.
To be clear:
A "wait and see" approach is exactly the opposite of what we should do and we are supposed to do.

Dreoh wrote: »

You can't cherrypick, you have to take his context as a whole.

I am not really cherrypicking, I am just focusing on his premises, those are:
1. Raiding won't fullfill his needs as a PVE player.
2. Addons are no requirement for games, but he prefers to have them.
3. He is a community leader and dislikes being fixed in the member count for raids.
Conclusion => not playing the game

This is the core of his post, everything else are just hypothesis and examples to explain why those premises are possibly true.

Why would I focus on something that he is just using as a tool of explanation if I can look at the core of his reasoning instead?
Wouldn't that be cherrypicking with the intention of ignoring his actual points?

Dreoh wrote: »

He's arguing his point yes, but with the ultimatum that he's not going to play without the additions he wants.

So you would play the game even if it had no feature you enjoy?
Everyone has certain things in mind that make or break a MMO for them, how is that different from him?
He is just letting the devs know so they can be aware of it, this is also valuable feedback.

Dreoh wrote: »

He's starting off in bad faith from the beginning [...]

Is he really though?

Tarnish wrote:

I heard about this game recently and there is a ton of good that i saw.

Tarnish wrote:

I was really hoping AoC would check all the boxes but it fell short. It checks alot of boxes and even adds boxes.

Dreoh

Grievousness wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

You can't cherrypick, you have to take his context as a whole.

I am not really cherrypicking, I am just focusing on his premises, those are:
1. Raiding won't fullfill his needs as a PVE player.
2. Addons are no requirement for games, but he prefers to have them.
3. He is a community leader and dislikes being fixed in the member count for raids.
Conclusion => not playing the game

This is the core of his post, everything else are just hypothesis and examples to explain why those premises are possibly true.

Why would I focus on something that he is just using as a tool of explanation if I can look at the core of his reasoning instead?
Wouldn't that be cherrypicking with the intention of ignoring his actual points?

Yes, cherrypicking because you're taking those out of context. Sure they are valid points if this was a good faith thread, but it's not, at least when talking with him it isn't. Between you and me we can have a good discussion about it.

Grievousness wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

He's arguing his point yes, but with the ultimatum that he's not going to play without the additions he wants.

So you would play the game even if it had no feature you enjoy?
Everyone has certain things in mind that make or break a MMO for them, how is that different from him?
He is just letting the devs know so they can be aware of it, this is also valuable feedback.

We're not talking about me, we're talking about his childish post. I wouldn't go into a Super Mario 64 forum and argue about how I'm not going to play their game unless they let me play as Waluigi.
I'm mature enough to make a thread discussing these issues without putting ultimatums on the table. And sure, if a game had nothing I wanted in it, then why would I play it? But to imply AoC has nothing he will enjoy is very hyperbolic and a ridiculous stance for you and him to take.

Grievousness wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

He's starting off in bad faith from the beginning [...]

Is he really though?

Yes. Don't play dumb.

Rhadek

its a pvp game, theres an abundance of pve games out there im glad this isnt one of them with all the snowflakes that come with pve games, bb

Grievousness

Rhadek wrote: »

its a pvp game, theres an abundance of pve games out there im glad this isnt one of them with all the snowflakes that come with pve games, bb

No that's just as wrong as saying it is a PvE game.

If you would have bothered reading it up they always describe that PvE shapes the world while PvP challenges the world order that has been established before.
It is kind of a ying-yang relationship, as a result there is no clear focus.
You could also view PvE as the orderly productive force while PvP is the chaotic destructive force.

They are perfectly clear about this, hence why it is viewed as a PvX game.
Source:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation
Try reading the paragraphs about nodes, pve and pvp.

Tarnish

nidriks wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

@Tarnish Please for the love of god format your responses into nice and comprehensive soundbites, nobody wants to read huge blocks of text, it's actually extremely tedious.

But he's so knowledgeable. He doesn't have time to format. He has his knowledge to get across

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/247410/#Comment_247410
For those of you who do not know, I have raided in multiple MMOs at the highest difficulty and have been top US/World/server level player for 15 years and have been playing for 20+ years.
####
This is for the Devs to hopefully read coming from someone with a lot of experience in PVE content.

I read that post properly at work last night and was left speechless. I've been playing MMOs, mostly PvE, for near 20 years myself. I might not have been a "top level" raider, but I've done group content of all levels throughout those near 20 years. I'd never hope to come across as full of myself as this guy.

I came to this thread looking to help the guy. To explain that there was more to this game than he was seeing, that there was a community here and if he believed himself such a good leader he could do more than lead a raid. I thought someone might be able to convince him there was more to a good MMO than a dps meter, and that addons to fix a game are not needed if the game is good to start with.

I've started to wonder if he's not just here for the kicks. I want this community to be welcoming, but some people you just can't help.

My points are simple to those who have raided for many years. People who like to PVE at the higher levels just want to do their best. This does not mean they are the best. A DPS is just a tool used. It shows you what you bring to the table. The perfect example is a support class not a damage class. I honestly don't care how i come off to people on a forum. If there is anything i know it is how to run a guild and raid at a high level.

Good guilds keep players around. The most common compliment i get from my raiders is when they tell me if they had not joined my guild they would of likely taken many breaks throughout the years but because the guild was so much fun to be in and competitive that is was hard for them to walk away. Typically guilds have a hard time mixing the both.

I have killed so many extremely difficult bosses over the years. Just curious Mr. all over the place raider, What is it that you enjoyed about raiding and when did you ever raid without a Meter? what kind of requirements did you encounter at the higher levels of play vs the lower end of raid teams? How did that effect your experience?

I can tell you the honest answers to these questions is why it is so important people understand what i am getting at. PVE gives the game consistency on players. Like i said at the start of this thread, MMORPGS have 2 legs to stand on, PVP and PVE, fail at 1 and the game falls over on itself in a couple of months.

Tarnish

insomnia wrote: »

If you can't play a game due to no DPS meter and add-ons then you are doing something wrong. I can see somewhat with add-ons, but then again, this also goes back to what the game brings. Are they even needed with what you can do with your interface, information you get about various things

I know people keep putting DPS meter here, its actually just a meter the PVE community is asking for. Meters show what your class brings tot he table. It may not just be damage. Without that information you're flying blind and could actually cause a uneducated toxicity which is far worse than a standard of play. Standard being the expectancy that everyone is trying their best to bring what their class can bring to the table. Would suck to join a dungeon group and find out that 2 of the members are not really bringing anything to the group. I imagine that would be a miserable experience. the part that sucks is you would not be able to make a educated critique of the person because everyone is blind. I just know all of the raiders i know would hate not knowing what they bring to the table.

Tarnish

Rhadek wrote: »

its a pvp game, theres an abundance of pve games out there im glad this isnt one of them with all the snowflakes that come with pve games, bb

All of the MMOPRGs i play have both. No MMO's have been successful for long without both. All it takes is one game with both and the game is no longer competing in the market.

Caric

Good luck to your future gaming. At least you still have WoW to play, right?

Tarnish

Knytemaire wrote: »

While I think it is good to make suggestions in good faith for the game, I think the people that want to change the direction of the game without giving it a chance are missing a big point. This is Steven's vision and he has put in a ton of money to build the game of "his" dreams based on his game experiences. This is what we, those that have backed the game, have bought into because we believed in his vision. As has been said, he knows it won't be the game for everyone.

I personally am a player that enjoys mostly PvE. I have played many MMOs and was an extensive raider in EQ and Vanilla WoW thru WOTLK. While I am apprehensive of PvP one on one (since I play healers mostly), I still bought into Steven's vision because it resonated with me. Large scale battles sound great (and were fun back in DAoC).

I miss the days of games without tons of addons and dps meters. I am happy they are wanting to stay away from that. Don't get me wrong, I use them in WoW, but I feel they make me a less attentive player and they take a lot of the fun out of things. I play WoW now because it is a mindless time filler, not because it is fun and engaging.

TLDR; Make viable suggestions not demands -- if you want a game to fit your idea of the perfect game, go drop the money and build a studio to make your own. Suggestions and constructive criticism don't hurt and could help shape the game, but don't expect them to do a 180 just because you want them to. They are not catering to everyone. They are building Steven's vision.

Hi, I am not making demands. I am putting all the information i have out there so Steven can see another side of a coin. If he does not want to listen to my input then that is 100% fine. However this information is just to make the game better. i am sick of seeing these MMORPGs die over and over within a couple of months because they get something wrong. They all had good ideas. I tried so many just to find out they either mess up PVP or PVE and the game dies within a few months. A skeleton crew of forum players who are super casual being the only ones left who secretly play a few other MMOs to scratch the itches that the MMO they supported does not have. Its a sick cycle. I want a new MMO to wash out WoW. Its a old game and i want something new and creative. I like a ton of what i am hearing from AoC however the formula is key, good PVP and PVE content is the way to go. Feel free to shoot for a different market but i noticed the longevity of the success is crucial on this point.

Addons are to fill the void of things missed or messed up by the developers. Put in your suggestions now so that you dont need a addon for it later. Meters are crucial for PVE content if he wants a high end competitive PVE community. The big PRO to having a higher end of competitive PVE community is that they will be extremely active in the game for long term. PVPers tend be more on the casual side because it doesnt require a structure like most of the PVE content. This keeps alot of players active over a long period of time which keeps the game lively.

Do you plan on healing or playing a support class? How is it going to feel not knowing if you're actually helping your team? As someone who has played all roles over the years, when i play healer or support, i like seeing the impact i bring to the encounter. That goes for PVP and PVE. Without that information it would be hard to choose these classes and roles for me.

Tarnish

Thank you guys for continuing to speak on issues. i am trying my best to reply to everyone but i get a lot of feedback. I also still raid and work full time. SO time is a difficult thing. I am trying to get away from the big large statements as a lot of you were complaining about it. Understand when i have 25+ posts coming at me it is difficult to reply in a timely fashion and put out perfect paragraphs and perfect spelling/grammar.

I hope my points are being heard. It is a difficult task to educate different level raiders who play more casually on the importance of some of the small stuff. Its a common occurrence to have a player who is at a average level yell at a officer in a top guild for doing something they didn't understand. This does not make either side wrong. There is often many ways to use a tool or function. More competitive guilds vs more casual guilds will have different standards of play. The raiders i know would enjoy competitive/educated play vs guessing how things scale or stack. We would test and figure it out. Raid sizes i still think should be smaller than 40 however there is a lot still up in the air. This is the time for discussion. Lets not wait until its too late.

bloodprophet

There was someone higher up the thread that brought up the idea of an instanced zone guilds or maybe a few people could enter that offered meters so you could gauge where you were at and maybe help people that wanted to improve.
I like the idea. Think it would be a good balance between the two.

Tarnish

bloodprophet wrote: »

There was someone higher up the thread that brought up the idea of an instanced zone guilds or maybe a few people could enter that offered meters so you could gauge where you were at and maybe help people that wanted to improve.
I like the idea. Think it would be a good balance between the two.

i like that. It allows meters where it would be used. it would make reviewing the data in detail a little weird if i had to sit in the raid for a hour or 2 instead of a main hub. I will take what i can get though haha.

i am gonna ask some of the Youtubers i am friends with that PVP at a high level and see how important a meter would be for them.

Tarnish

Caric wrote: »

Good luck to your future gaming. At least you still have WoW to play, right?

there is a few of them out there. However with classic servers and retail is does increase the odds.

Dreoh

This is why no dps meters is my preferred option.

When you have an easy route to min-maxing you inevitably run into toxicity based around optimizing, and DPS meters are that easy route.

Addons also facilitate this undesirable outcome.

The thing is, if you allow addons, you're opening the floodgate and suddenly you have thousands of addons like ESO
Maybe they could go the GW2 route and tentatively sanction a very select few trusted and proven addons. GW2 only has 3 addons that are allowed, and honestly they could and should all be implemented directly into the client.

TheGoodzilla

Here is why I'm not playing Ashes.

6 pages later

Has this guy finished making his point yet?

Dreoh

TheGoodzilla wrote: »

Here is why I'm not playing Ashes.

6 pages later

Has this guy finished making his point yet?

No, I think he's actually more passionate about AoC than the rest of us but he's playing tsundere

Grievousness

Dreoh wrote: »

This is why no dps meters is my preferred option.

When you have an easy route to min-maxing you inevitably run into toxicity based around optimizing, and DPS meters are that easy route.

Addons also facilitate this undesirable outcome.

The thing is, if you allow addons, you're opening the floodgate and suddenly you have thousands of addons like ESO
Maybe they could go the GW2 route and tentatively sanction a very select few trusted and proven addons. GW2 only has 3 addons that are allowed, and honestly they could and should all be implemented directly into the client.

You don't even need addons to be implemented, having a proper combat log export into a txt file is basically enough.
I think you only needed a makro to do that in wow so you can upload the data to Warcraftlogs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/
Then they give you a couple of nice graphs and stuff to make the data easy to read.

So no, you don't even need add-ons in the game to have proper combat tracking.
As a result they don't facilitate anything add-on related as a general rule.

BobzUrUncle

TheGoodzilla wrote: »

Here is why I'm not playing Ashes.

6 pages later

Has this guy finished making his point yet?

Nope.

CROW3

I try food before disliking it, but that’s me. Everyone has their own road.

Marcet

Just here to refresh this post so nerds get triggered.

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