Rogue Stealth

So in most mmorpgs I tend to mostly play rogues. I like to be able to surprise my opponent and rogues having stealth is just a must have. My opinion on rogues stealth is that true invisibility should be obtainable. I like that at Rank 1 of stealth which you have in the game already is somewhat still visible. Its my hope that at rank 2 you can make your speed or duration longer and keeping the same visual, that being said. I really want to see Rank 3 achieve full invisibility. I know alot of people who hate rogues in other mmos hate the fact that you cant see them. Some of my suggestions to help appease this would be give stealth a duration, for example Stealth last 45secs, and has a 10 second cooldown, or something along those lines. Also I think that only Rogue primary class should be the only ones with Stealth as a skill. I dont want to see every class being able to stealth.

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Hurf Derfman

My expectation:
(WoW stealth+ Gw2 stealth)* Halo active cammo /D&D hide = AoC stealth

Let me explain.

Baseline ability pre augments at rank 3:
Instant cast. Toggle- 6 second cool down. Reduced movement speed OR has a mana upkeep of x per second.
(Or both)

Stealth- gain active cammo, hides nameplates and health bar. Generate x less threat. Remaining stationary for 2 seconds grants complete invis and for 3 seconds after moving. Going full invis, makes enemies drop target and threat.

Taking or dealing damage suppresses the benefits of active camo for 6 seconds. This six second effect would refresh every time you deal/take dmg so you'd have to decide to toggle stealth off to avoid the upkeep penalties.

Doge rolls would not break invis.

This way active skills and augments could change the values, reduce penalties grant damage buffs ECT.

As for other classes who sub rogue, I see them getting a lesser stealth that adds a weaker active cammo that is tied to a cooldown and grants a tertiary effect.

A tank/rogue for example wouldn't reduce threat or drop target but instead gain x percent dodge rating.

Maybe a mage/rogue doesn't gain stealth at all but something like blink grants 2 seconds of invis.

This is all pure speculation on my part but I'm basing it off the known skills for the classes that have them on the wiki.

HiddenDaggerInn

Dolyem wrote: »

People are just too used to WoW stealth imo. I feel like true invisibility should only be obtainable when you arent moving at all or are far enough behind someone, or far enough away in general. Otherwise you should be somewhat visible when within a certain range of someone, moving, and depending on positioning.

Full Stealth was in Long before World of Warcraft. DAoC had some great stealth, it was a game inside a game walking by another stealthed player.

Dolyem

Sandman wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

People are just too used to WoW stealth imo. I feel like true invisibility should only be obtainable when you arent moving at all or are far enough behind someone, or far enough away in general. Otherwise you should be somewhat visible when within a certain range of someone, moving, and depending on positioning.

Full Stealth was in Long before World of Warcraft. DAoC had some great stealth, it was a game inside a game walking by another stealthed player.

Oh I wasnt implying that WoW originally made that design, I was just meaning that it was made popular and the standard among MMOs by them. It simply is because so many people have played WoW that they are all groomed to that style of stealth.

HiddenDaggerInn

I personally agree with the OP that full stealth should be attainable, in games that require strategic attacks scouts are imperative. I do however believe it should come at a cost, because we don't want to see lots of people using it, only true stealthers, maybe rangers.

Also for people who hate stealth, there should be a few classes with unique stealth finding options so they would have the option to feel safer with those classes.

Hartwell

There are three ways to improve stealth in Planetside 2:
• Render distance of stealthed targets.
• How much shimmer is on the player.
• Duration of the effect.

If Ashes of Creation wanted to, they could have a passive spell for the shimmer distance of all stealth abilities on rogues.
Rank 1: Far away render distance.
Rank 2: Still pretty far, but a much closer render distance.
Rank 3: Mid range render distance.

Then they could give a long duration stealth ability, distinct from short duration stealth abilities.
Rank 1: 1 minute.
Rank 2: 2 minutes.
Rank 3: No duration.

Then the last thing would be shimmer amount. This could be something adjusted through rogue secondary augments.

Xinshu

My want for full invis to be obtainable thru augments or some other mechanic like a passive that you have to rank up is mainly for battlegrounds, arenas or protecting caravans. I don't want someone to be like: Come across a caravan and they stop and look around and see multiple shimmers and see there's 10 rogues out there in stealth lets not attack that caravan. Or in a battleground see a rogue heading towards a point of interest or objective and let their team know. The full invis would benefit alot in these types of situations. For all the people who hate the idea of full invis for open world pvp, theres a anti-greifing mechanic set in place for the game called corruption. If you get jumped by a rogue and you dont like to pvp you dont have to fight back and the rogue would then get corruption. Bounter hunters should get the ability to detect stealth players and at certain distance.( I hope if you decide to kill someone and get corruption that you are still able to stealth). Also im not against certain classes or subclasses getting an ability to detect stealth either but should have to invest just as much skill points to detect the stealth. Also I believe if full invis for stealth being obtainable would give the class a more needed feel to have rogues in you party or group. And it would mean having a class that has the ability to detect stealth would be needed to have as well. (Having lookouts) for castle sieges or (scouts) to see if there's any weak points in their defense.

Tragnar

Seeing the stealth in the videos makes me truly worried that it will just become player's best interest to change their graphics setup to give the highest contrast for detecting stealthed characters - this is definitely going to bite Intrepid in the a**

Damokles

I seriously think that Stealth should be a rogue main class ability.

Hurf Derfman

Damokles wrote: »

I seriously think that Stealth should be a rogue main class ability.

I think, that the best stealth should be under the purview of rogues but there's no reason to limit it from subclasses having a version of active camouflage.

ExSpetsnaz

Xinshu wrote: »

I look at it in this way from the type of class development this game is implementing. Your main archetype come from the class you choose in the beginning( Rogue). Subclasses change the way your character is developed in the choice you make. You make choices to level certain abilities. Take stealth as the choice, stealth can be ranked up, instead of a skill that does damage for instance. If you rank up stealth AND choose mage as a subclass and from all those skills that you can choose to augment a primary skill you choose stealth and invis for instance to make stealth a full invis ability. You are making a choice to do less damage or have less utility that you might have if you chose to take stealth and augment say charge from a tank ability and it now changes stealth to be like a shadowstep ability and appear behind your target. Its a choice that I hope is allowed, having full invis. With all the classes and subclasses and being able to augment skills the way you want makes the diversity of the game truly appealing. Just cause you dont like it doesnt mean its wrong. Either way if they dont have full invis, ill still be happy with the stealth they already have.

Yeah they can make it similar to the Arcane Trickster Rogue subclass in D&D. Supplement the rogue's innate stealth capabilities with some magical trickery. I'd be surprised if a full invisibility doesn't exist in the game in some form, though I agree that it should come at the cost of something else.

Timeraider

Tragnar wrote: »

Seeing the stealth in the videos makes me truly worried that it will just become player's best interest to change their graphics setup to give the highest contrast for detecting stealthed characters - this is definitely going to bite Intrepid in the a**

True, though it does depend quite on how the stealth works/looks. WoW for example imo has circumvented this quite well whereby there are only 2 states of stealth (1... fully invisible regardless .. 2. Shadowy but clearly visible regardless of settings) .. whereby it simply changes from state 1 to 2 depending on how close someone is in stealth, how good your stealthdetection is etc.

Works quite well compared to the more obvious "camouflage" most games use as stealth, which relies on people having either bad eyesight or using the same graphical settings as the devs... because we all know that (especially in games like FPS's), if a professional player sees even the slightest shimmer.. stealth is useless ;D

truelyyy

I think what they have is good and maybe full invis when still. Playing vs full invis is just annoying tbh and i prefer it not to exist. I think it makes for bad player experience for everyone apart from the one that is stealthed.

Decidendi

Xinshu wrote: »

So in most mmorpgs I tend to mostly play rogues. I like to be able to surprise my opponent and rogues having stealth is just a must have. My opinion on rogues stealth is that true invisibility should be obtainable. I like that at Rank 1 of stealth which you have in the game already is somewhat still visible. Its my hope that at rank 2 you can make your speed or duration longer and keeping the same visual, that being said. I really want to see Rank 3 achieve full invisibility. I know alot of people who hate rogues in other mmos hate the fact that you cant see them. Some of my suggestions to help appease this would be give stealth a duration, for example Stealth last 45secs, and has a 10 second cooldown, or something along those lines. Also I think that only Rogue primary class should be the only ones with Stealth as a skill. I dont want to see every class being able to stealth.

Too much WoW stuff. Yuck

Valic

I've always enjoyed regular stealth with the implication you move at a slower rate and can be seen by certain classes that activate abilities to see anyone hidden in it. On top of this, a cooldown of course as well to go with it... You stealth, you can move with maybe -20% your regular speed and it lasts X amount of time and if you do literally anything it pops you out of stealth. Simple.

Personally I'm all for classes like Nightshield having abilities that provide group stealth, maybe lower levels require you to be immobilized, maybe higher levels increase what movement speed you can do. Something that's true mitigation as a Nightshield would be removal of targeting. I also love the concept of a placeable area of effect stealth that hides anyone inside it but allows enemies who go into it to see their foe again. Something akin to a one way mirror barrier, preventing ranged classes from safely using long range abilities for a short time and forcing them or melee players to get closer inside the bubble if they want to continue their attack on the same target(s). Maybe low level a small bubble that just hides whoever's inside, 2nd level make it larger area effect (this would in turn be a consequence to, giving more room to ranged classes to dodge), and third rank block any ranged abilities from the outside of the shield from entering. Things like group stealth would easily need a long cd and not too long duration so that it caters more towards group play, sieges, and the like over self use. To me these two concepts are perfect for a Nightshield in maintaining it being a tank that mitigates but using rogue's invisibility to "mitigate damage" through what players can/cannot target immediately.

uncounted

In my opinion there should be various skills for hiding such as plain old invisibility, camouflage and hide and not every skill should be exclusive to the rogue but the rogue could use all of them.

I imagine them working something like this:
Invisibility: For a short duration you become invisible. At low levels you are completely invisible when you are standing still but become a blur when you are moving, at higher levels you are completely invisible if you are moving a certain distance from someone but you start becoming a blur when you get closer. If you stand or move very close to another player, meaning at melee range literally on top the other player, you become a very noticeable blur. The effect ends if you use any offensive ability(even if you didn't hit something).
Camouflage: Using some materials you become part of the environment e.g. a tree or a bush, you move very slowly and get a bar that reduces as long as you move there is no time duration but if the bar hits zero or you use any kind of ability you remove your camouflage. Higher levels give you bigger bar and more things you can camouflage into.
Hide: You can hide somewhere, being a tree, a bush, a barrel whatever. You cannot move, the duration is very big(several minutes) if you do any movement or use an ability the skill ends.

Of course some other classes should be able to uncover you or see you. For instance a mage could use magic sight and see through your invisibility or camouflage, a ranger maybe can use some tracking ability and reveal your hiding spot and a cleric might use some reveal magic and despell your invisibility or destroy your camouflage. Also if you take a certain amount of damage all the abilities break and reveal you.

Sov54

Yeah, I guess my guy has been playing rogue in WoW Classic recently? Where 80% of what you dealt with was getting oneshot by random rogues. No possible counterplay.

Guess it was fun.

I want to main bard to be, as always, a support. But I, and most of us, refuse to be a victim in a game with death penalties. Why would we let you abuse us? No way, man.

flameh0t

I like the stealth in PWI on assassin's..
Stealth and perception of the stealthed is equal to player's level..
So example, all level 100 characters perception level = 100.. level 50 character = level 50 perception etc.. But a level 100 assassin uses stealth skill adds +25 to invis, making the character completely invisible to anyone with less than +125 perception.
But if a level 50 rogue comes up on a level 100 character, using their stealth, they're only +75 stealth (lvl50 +skill25), so to a level 100 character the level 50 is only partially invis but still stealthed.

Then any attacking/casting/dealing DMG, breaks the stealth.

ephii

Iv heard talk of it being this shimmer effect and i was a little put off at first. If done right tho think it could be pretty good. Imagine its almost pretty much full invis if sitting still and the slower u move the harder it is to see. I like the idea of adding an element of skill to the stealth like having to play it slow and predict where they are headed for some sick bonus dmg with a attack from coming out of stealth. How does any one else feel about this idea?

Inixia

In pve I have no issues with rogues having true invisibility, but in pvp being on the other side of that as a mage can be... frustrating. I mean I get it though, its a bit like crowd control, its fun to play but its hard to balance because its a one sided interaction until the opponent can break free or space out again, and those options are often pretty limited. It definitely stresses the need for group gameplay because rogue stealth is often combined with the upfront/burst damage. Its kind of their calling card (and I'm not arguing that's not how it should be).

Ideally I think whatever the stealth mechanic ends up being there should be some options for opponent to work around. And that option probably shouldn't be tied to total damage, because rogues should still be viably balanced dps in raiding.

One option is just that rogue has permanent true stealth but opponents also generally have some viable spacing options or cc's to counter (if they aren't already tanky or healy enough to be able to get through that initial burst/stun). Not every class matchup has to be evenly balanced, things are balanced more in group rather than solo. Still... if the opponent knows you are there they should be able to act in some small way to defend themselves or run away and not just be sitting ducks. Because pvp should be somewhat about skill not rock paper scissors on what class you have. When I was a necro in Rift one cool tactic i had was to spawn a bunch of pets and feign death (which detargeted them) and hope they got lost trying to retarget me in the pool of pets. It wasn't enough to give me an advantage in the matchup but it still let me buy some time to get back to allies.

Another option is to have the stealth mechanic be skill based in some way, like having to use shadows or having visibility within a certain range or outside of frontal vision. That way they still get the advantage... but only if they don't provoke suspicion and position smartly.

Valic

Keep in mind that other classes like mages, rangers, etc can have skills like this...

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