Open world raids

There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

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Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

It is clear that what you consider challenging, i consider being easy.

No.

What is clear is that you have not experienced the content type we are talking about. That is fine, it is content that only 4 - 5% of players experience.

Tragnar

Mojottv wrote: »

I mean its pointless arguing with you two. Yes, i probably never faced challenging pve content, as i usually didnt play with 10 year olds, that cant keep focused for 15 minutes. I have been wipeddown loads of times by different raids, cuz someone fucked up, but that was usually because it was their first time or they didn't know something etc. It is clear that what you consider challenging, i consider being easy.

Do you realise that you contradict yourself inside 3 sentences?

Challenging is watching your own characters feet to see if fire has spawned under you and to run away under 3 seconds, because every second it ticks for 40% of your max hp. While you have the responsibility to not make any mistakes in your dps rotation on the boss and switch quickly enough to the spawned adds and watching the threat that you do, because if you crit and didnt make sure the tank has enough threat then you just wiped the raid. Meanwhile it is your job to keep your debuffs on the boss, because the raid needs them. Not to say you need be agile enough to use defensive cooldowns before the boss finishes his cast of fireball on you, because it will oneshot you if you don't use them.

Challenging PvE fight is about handling many dangerous situations at once and not loosing focus, being positioned properly and actively preplanning your next steps with your resource management.

Mojottv

Ok, yes, you win, I never experienced challenging raids. I don't know what I'm talking about.
What ever.

Lets see, if there are other people who want continue original discussion, without personal attacks.

Tragnar

Since when is showing contradictions in forum posts a personal attack?

All I've written here directed towards you is about trying to show you that I want difficult raids even when there is everything about them known. Not that there shouldn't exist the information gathering phase. Even though I don't believe it is possible to have that phase being extremely important, unless there will be so few top-end guilds where withholding information about tactics is actually useful.

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

I never experienced challenging raids.

This was obvious right from the start, honestly.

Tragnar wrote: »

Even though I don't believe it is possible to have that phase being extremely important, unless there will be so few top-end guilds where withholding information about tactics is actually useful.

This is key, to be fair, but in a game like Ashes where different servers will have different content, I can absolutely see it happening.

Guilds in Ashes are unlikely going to want to provide the strategy to an encounter directly to a rival guild.

Tragnar

It depends on how entering the raids is going to function in practice. However the different content is mostly going to differ by the resistances and vulnerabilities of the raids in the node that might change what builds/gear you want to run in there, but general types are going to be shared across all nodes.

The only thing that is going to change from node to node is the type of damage that the raid is going to need to make and being resistant towards. Like ice-cream flavors.

Also I definitely think that the nodes might be similar across multiple servers, especially if ashes is going to be successful. So you might see strategies for all types of encounters with different spins depending on the type of node you are going to be in.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

It depends on how entering the raids is going to function in practice. However the different content is mostly going to differ by the resistances and vulnerabilities of the raids in the node that might change what builds/gear you want to run in there, but general types are going to be shared across all nodes.

The only thing that is going to change from node to node is the type of damage that the raid is going to need to make and being resistant towards. Like ice-cream flavors.

Also I definitely think that the nodes might be similar across multiple servers, especially if ashes is going to be successful. So you might see strategies for all types of encounters with different spins depending on the type of node you are going to be in.

Exactly how it will go is not really possible to guess accurately right now.

Games where strategies are freely shared are all games without any competition for content, and where the bulk of the player base are not in competition with each other.

As soon as you add in those two elements, the dynamics of things like this change.

Tragnar

All I'm trying to say is that if there more than few servers then there is big likelyhood to share information rather than to withhold it.

Of course if Ashes will have only one "full" server per region than I can definitely see how the rivalries will make guilds safeguard their strategies.

Tyrantor

@Marcet @Noaani @CaptnChuck

Let me understand this, you're all still crying for 40 man instance raids? How come none of you can figure out how this can be accomplished in an open world? How come each time you write your understanding of the scenario it involves you showing up to the "location" and anyone else who gets there simply interrupts you? You all have these grand illusions that it's your group of 40 and that's it.

Do you not believe that the 40 man dungeon raid is supposed to be a guild event where the whole guild shows up to defend it, to stake claim to slaying the dragon, while 40 members may do the PvE fight the rest of the guild defends them while it occurs?

Do you not think that it's possible to take turns fighting the best mobs in the dungeon? That guilds and people can have open dialog about taking turns or not engaging each other simply because the option is available to them? Do you not believe there would be some quorum regarding not killing each other during this?

You're all so caught up in this illusion that unless you can zone into a new place to have this fight there is no chance it could be done. Do you really need 100% of the engagements to go exactly as you expect? You want an experience, but you don't for a second consider how much cooler the experience would become if your entire guild gets to take part in it instead of just the lucky 40 who get to slay this epic monster. None of you have had to negotiate an alliance or talk an enemy down from attacking you because someone in your group, guild or yourself did something stupid. Open your eyes it's time to grow up, take responsibility and learn to play in a game world that doesn't protect you - figure out how to do it on your own.

I will concede this point. If it's true that all of you want just some 40 man boss raid for nothing more than the experience of killing an NPC w/out interference from PvP during the "raid" then I will support it IF and ONLY IF you concede the following. 1) There can be zero loot drop or EXP gain for killing the elite mob inside of the instance. 2) After killing the monster each character gets an item that can not be dropped or destroyed preventing summon(s) until you reach the nearest level 3+ node. 3) You can't enter the instance if in combat or corrupt.

If the three of you want to agree to my points above I'll start fighting for your epic mob instance(one) which they can update to your hearts content)). Otherwise I really think you three need to take a break from the argument because if you can't agree to this then it's simply you want safety fighting while epic loot and exp are available.

Azeem

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/iskhh7/saying_this_is_not_the_right_game_for_that_is_not/

go look at this
but ya get instanced content out of your head because its not going to happen. It's not one of the design pillars and it literally works against all the other systems in place. 20% instanced for more storytelling/narrative parts but the end game content is open world.

Bricktop

Azeem wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/iskhh7/saying_this_is_not_the_right_game_for_that_is_not/

go look at this
but ya get instanced content out of your head because its not going to happen. It's not one of the design pillars and it literally works against all the other systems in place. 20% instanced for more storytelling/narrative parts but the end game content is open world.

Yeah that reddit thread sums it all up. Thanks for sharing.

Tragnar

Tyrantor wrote: »

Do you not believe that the 40 man dungeon raid is supposed to be a guild event where the whole guild shows up to defend it, to stake claim to slaying the dragon, while 40 members may do the PvE fight the rest of the guild defends them while it occurs?

it is indeed a guild event however from this standpoint you want a giant guilds where the majority doesnt know one another, because the PvP side of things is mostly determined by the sheer number of players defending. Not to say that attacking a PvP entrance area is much easier than defending it. This dynamic basicly devolves into - the guild with most players wins

Do you not think that it's possible to take turns fighting the best mobs in the dungeon? That guilds and people can have open dialog about taking turns or not engaging each other simply because the option is available to them? Do you not believe there would be some quorum regarding not killing each other during this?

You can of course negotiate these things and it might work for a limited time. However the moment that one guild sees a way to get the goods with cutting off the second guild without massive repercussions then they do it.

You're all so caught up in this illusion that unless you can zone into a new place to have this fight there is no chance it could be done. Do you really need 100% of the engagements to go exactly as you expect? You want an experience, but you don't for a second consider how much cooler the experience would become if your entire guild gets to take part in it instead of just the lucky 40 who get to slay this epic monster. None of you have had to negotiate an alliance or talk an enemy down from attacking you because someone in your group, guild or yourself did something stupid. Open your eyes it's time to grow up, take responsibility and learn to play in a game world that doesn't protect you - figure out how to do it on your own.

I've been part in a guild where such negotiations went. It is always a matter of time before it turns into bloodbath of betrayal and bad blood. Any guild alliances over world boss loot turns bad sooner or later and the only solution is to bring more players.

I will concede this point. If it's true that all of you want just some 40 man boss raid for nothing more than the experience of killing an NPC w/out interference from PvP during the "raid" then I will support it IF and ONLY IF you concede the following. 1) There can be zero loot drop or EXP gain for killing the elite mob inside of the instance. 2) After killing the monster each character gets an item that can not be dropped or destroyed preventing summon(s) until you reach the nearest level 3+ node. 3) You can't enter the instance if in combat or corrupt.

If the three of you want to agree to my points above I'll start fighting for your epic mob instance(one) which they can update to your hearts content)). Otherwise I really think you three need to take a break from the argument because if you can't agree to this then it's simply you want safety fighting while epic loot and exp are available.

Interesting demands. I understand, the only thing in the game should start and end with open world PvP. I have nothing against pure PvP MMO games, but I don't play them and many players do not either. And afaik Ashes is not supposed to be pure PvP game.

Tyrantor

So you're saying you can't agree to those 3 little points even if it gets you the instance PVE experience you want? Is it safe then to assume, you just want safe farming and not a epic PvE experince?

Tragnar

Azeem wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/iskhh7/saying_this_is_not_the_right_game_for_that_is_not/

go look at this
but ya get instanced content out of your head because its not going to happen. It's not one of the design pillars and it literally works against all the other systems in place. 20% instanced for more storytelling/narrative parts but the end game content is open world.

I read it whole and?

I am not against open world raids I am against easy raids that are facerolled if PvP doesnt happen

The designs are fresh, exciting and very promising - stop spinning this into something that this thread is not about

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

Azeem wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/iskhh7/saying_this_is_not_the_right_game_for_that_is_not/

go look at this
but ya get instanced content out of your head because its not going to happen. It's not one of the design pillars and it literally works against all the other systems in place. 20% instanced for more storytelling/narrative parts but the end game content is open world.

I read it whole and?

I am not against open world raids I am against easy raids that are facerolled if PvP doesnt happen

The designs are fresh, exciting and very promising - stop spinning this into something that this thread is not about

Alright great, sounds like we all agree that we want cool content that we need to wait and see what the content actually looks like. The devs might be innovating some amazing groundbreaking stuff.

Marcet

@Tyrantor

You are so caught up in this that you didn't even read my post. I didn't said anything about instanced PvE or wanting 40 man dungeons.

You literally atack me for no reason because you are too emotional about this argument to talk with respect. Im sorry brother go outside and breathe fresh air, it's not good to get so mad at other people in the internet without even reading what they have to say.

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

it is indeed a guild event however from this standpoint you want a giant guilds where the majority doesnt know one another, because the PvP side of things is mostly determined by the sheer number of players defending. Not to say that attacking a PvP entrance area is much easier than defending it. This dynamic basicly devolves into - the guild with most players wins

Very defeatist attitude and not true. It's possible in many games for smaller groups of players to kill larger groups of players.

Tragnar wrote: »

You can of course negotiate these things and it might work for a limited time. However the moment that one guild sees a way to get the goods with cutting off the second guild without massive repercussions then they do it.

That's the nature of an open world game. This is a feature not a problem. Ensure that your guild is able to have and maintain a fair alliance/partnership.

Tragnar wrote: »

I've been part in a guild where such negotiations went. It is always a matter of time before it turns into bloodbath of betrayal and bad blood. Any guild alliances over world boss loot turns bad sooner or later and the only solution is to bring more players.

Betrayal and bad blood?! Wow sounds like some exciting open world content. Again, larger zerg guilds have been beaten in many games before.

Tragnar

Tyrantor wrote: »

So you're saying you can't agree to those 3 little points even if it gets you the instance PVE experience you want? Is it safe then to assume, you just want safe farming and not a epic PvE experince?

All you have been talking about is epic PvPvE battle where your guild is fighting off other guild and killing the boss at the same time.

If the content is truly tuned only for 40 people that any individuals stealthing to the boss room mean insta wipes otherwise the boss is tuned for PvP in mind which makes it super easy to kill without PvP present. Also I do not think that 1individual should wield the power to waste time for 40+ people.

And those 3little points basically mean you don't want instanced PvE to give any meaningful rewards so it makes no sense for anyone to do them.

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

Also I do not think that 1individual should wield the power to waste time for 40+ people.

Why not? That should 100% be allowed to happen in an open world game. It all circles back to wanting safe PvE doesn't it?

winner909098

Tragnar wrote: »

Azeem wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/iskhh7/saying_this_is_not_the_right_game_for_that_is_not/

go look at this
but ya get instanced content out of your head because its not going to happen. It's not one of the design pillars and it literally works against all the other systems in place. 20% instanced for more storytelling/narrative parts but the end game content is open world.

I read it whole and?

I am not against open world raids I am against easy raids that are facerolled if PvP doesnt happen

The designs are fresh, exciting and very promising - stop spinning this into something that this thread is not about

how about you try the PVE before saying its too easy? if you dont like it, then dont play it. we will be having open world fighting, and that is a good thing.

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